nixluva wrote:I'm sorry but the Knicks are in the best starting situation they've been in over the last 17 years. The Media Hyped issues are not enough to cancel out the positive things going for this franchise.

Adding Scott Perry was a VERY good move. Some are already looking for some negative angle to take so they can kick dirt on this but it's a POSITIVE move for the franchise.

Not many comment on it but there is going to be some continuity with Jeff and a good number of players returning for next season.

The roster is off to a great start. This isn't a bare Cupboard that we're starting with. It's still early so we don't know yet how these players will develop but it's surely not starting from scratch. Can't wait for Training Camp as there should be some good invites to take a look at.

TEAM ROSTER
NO.	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	
17	Frank Ntilikina	        G	18	6-5	190	 
--	Ognjen Jaramaz	        PG	21	6-4	194	 	 
6	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	21	7-3	240	
99	Luke Kornet	        PF	22	7-1	250		 
--	Damyean Dotson	        SG	23	6-5	210	
14	Willy Hernangomez	C	23	6-11	240	
31	Ron Baker	        SG	24	6-4	220	
4	Chasson Randle	        PG	24	6-2	185	
10	Tim Hardaway Jr.	SG	25	6-6	205	
91	Mindaugas Kuzminskas	F	27	6-9	215	
9	Kyle O'Quinn	        C	27	6-10	250	

Some players on the roster may be traded and we at least have the possibility of assets coming back. Having all of our 1st rd picks is a good thing. Until we see what happens with Melo and other possible trades we can't say how much better things will get but from this current point things are much more positive than in the past.

You're just setting yourself up for a hard fall. There's nothing optimistic about any part of this team.

The offense.
The defense.
The rebounding.
The ball movement.
The locker room culture.
The management culture.
The cap space.
Our future prospective draft positions.

Below average to disastrous in each of these categories. The only thing the Knicks have that is above average is shooters imo but how good are shooters when you don't have the ball movement to put them in position?

After 10 or so games after the season starts the doom sets in that this is the team, filled with horrendously ugly basketball, and there will be no way to change it for years until Porzingis eventually leaves.

Sinix wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

I am trying to figure out what the Knicks did that was a win now move this offseason. They drafted Frank, and Dotson, signed Kornet, Baker and Hardaway, waived Plumlee and Ndour, allowed Rose and possibly Sasha to walk, fired Phil, hired Scott. Also, the culture could not get worse then it was.

That venom is why we can't win anything.... Every thing we did can't be dim and gloom. I truly feel sorry for people like this. They bring sorrow to the world when there isn't.

A rosy attitude doesn't make a team with a lack of talent go from losers to winners.

Not coming to terms with who you are is what is called delusion.

The first step to fixing any problem is coming to terms that it exists. Until the Knicks deal with root issues it's just going to be a matter of them spinning their wheels.

Uh.... yes the Knicks suck... but if you can't see that we are in a healthy space now to grow over 2 years then you should put the jersey back in the bag and go sit in the corner till your parents come to pick you up

Sinix wrote:

nixluva wrote:I'm sorry but the Knicks are in the best starting situation they've been in over the last 17 years. The Media Hyped issues are not enough to cancel out the positive things going for this franchise.

Adding Scott Perry was a VERY good move. Some are already looking for some negative angle to take so they can kick dirt on this but it's a POSITIVE move for the franchise.

Not many comment on it but there is going to be some continuity with Jeff and a good number of players returning for next season.

The roster is off to a great start. This isn't a bare Cupboard that we're starting with. It's still early so we don't know yet how these players will develop but it's surely not starting from scratch. Can't wait for Training Camp as there should be some good invites to take a look at.

TEAM ROSTER
NO.	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	
17	Frank Ntilikina	        G	18	6-5	190	 
--	Ognjen Jaramaz	        PG	21	6-4	194	 	 
6	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	21	7-3	240	
99	Luke Kornet	        PF	22	7-1	250		 
--	Damyean Dotson	        SG	23	6-5	210	
14	Willy Hernangomez	C	23	6-11	240	
31	Ron Baker	        SG	24	6-4	220	
4	Chasson Randle	        PG	24	6-2	185	
10	Tim Hardaway Jr.	SG	25	6-6	205	
91	Mindaugas Kuzminskas	F	27	6-9	215	
9	Kyle O'Quinn	        C	27	6-10	250	

Some players on the roster may be traded and we at least have the possibility of assets coming back. Having all of our 1st rd picks is a good thing. Until we see what happens with Melo and other possible trades we can't say how much better things will get but from this current point things are much more positive than in the past.

You're just setting yourself up for a hard fall. There's nothing optimistic about any part of this team.

The offense.
The defense.
The rebounding.
The ball movement.
The locker room culture.
The management culture.
The cap space.
Our future prospective draft positions.

Below average to disastrous in each of these categories. The only thing the Knicks have that is above average is shooters imo but how good are shooters when you don't have the ball movement to put them in position?

After 10 or so games after the season starts the doom sets in that this is the team, filled with horrendously ugly basketball, and there will be no way to change it for years until Porzingis eventually leaves.

The team will be MUCH different when we're going with youth rather than Old Vets. This notion that this team is lost doesn't track with what we've already seen from these young core players once they got a chance to play and develop. The Offense and Defense will be much more team oriented so the Ball and Player Movement will IMPROVE as we move forward. Not sure why you think this would be a negative.

The Locker room Culture will also be an improvement minus SELFISH guys with bad attitudes. Knicks have done a good job of bringing in young men with good character and dispositions. I don't see this as a major issue going forward.

THe Management team is looking MUCH more in sync IMO. Phil was a much more grumpy and outspoken leader in the Front Office. The guys left are not guys that make waves. Again I don't know what you're basing your opinion on. Certainly not the personalities of the men left in the Front Office.

The cap situation is only temporarily tight. They can address this with proper trades. This isn't a team looking to make big Free Agent Splashes at this point anyway. There's no long term cap problem.

The draft is another thing altogether. You can't expect to get top picks indefinitely. There could be a pick or two added in trades but we'll have to wait and see. The key at this point is making smart use of draft picks and UDFA's and developing the young talent properly.

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

Didn't you say 10 years before? You're getting more optimistic.

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

How about if Melo actually passed the ball as he promised and gave a FLIP about defense and running the floor as Jeff asked him to do? How about if Melo didn't start a near Mutiny but rather took the side of the Coach in a positive way like most REAL team leaders do? Phil would not have had to say anything if Melo was doing what he was supposed to be doing. People keep making excuses for Melo and bashing Phil, but what exactly was it that Phil was asking?

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.
"Carmelo, a lot of times, wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule, if you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold the ball for three, four, five seconds, then everybody comes to a stop. That is one of the things we work with. But he has adjusted to it, he knows what it can do and he's willing to see its success."

"Carmelo's genuinely a solid person, a citizen, I think," Jackson said. "He has good intentions. I think some of the things that come along with him, I always say I can go back to [Syracuse coach Jim] Boeheim and say that was the zone that he played in college. But that's just a joke I have with him. The aspect of learning in the NBA and developing habits become entrenched, and sometimes you have to break those habits to change your manner of playing, and I think that's one of the things he's had to do with this new group of guys. It's a little bit different. He doesn't have sole possession of the offense. There are other people that are involved in the offense, and he embraces that. But then you still have habits you have to break, and I think that's one of the things.

Defensively, we've talked to him a lot about movement and that aspect of -- we're now into high-performance things, where we have cameras that can legislate or watch movement on the court all the time -- each have, you can go back and check that. We're trying to get him to get more active as a defensive player. That's one of the things that I think is noticeable, that he has changed. And we're liking that."

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

Didn't you say 10 years before? You're getting more optimistic.

If labron said im thinking about going to the knicks next yr if melo is still there, do you know how fast the young movement will go out the window.

I'm a knick fan regardless to anything, obviously I haven't been happy about a lot of sht they do, and its pretty safe to say I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Some of us have different opinions on how things should go moving fwd. There is a good reason for some to be pessimistic, and optimistic.

The optimistic part of me knows that the triangle killed this team last season, and with more direct focus on a system that fits your roster, that is going to go a long way

The pessimistic part of me knows that willy and KP, make a horrible defensive tandem, because they are horrible slow, and can't cover the perimeter.

The knicks screaming defense first(this time around) with the same coaching staff, and primarily the same roster is a head scratcher. I think frank will help, but I have my doubts about his durability and we have zero depth at the position.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

How about if Melo actually passed the ball as he promised and gave a FLIP about defense and running the floor as Jeff asked him to do? How about if Melo didn't start a near Mutiny but rather took the side of the Coach in a positive way like most REAL team leaders do? Phil would not have had to say anything if Melo was doing what he was supposed to be doing. People keep making excuses for Melo and bashing Phil, but what exactly was it that Phil was asking?

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.
"Carmelo, a lot of times, wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule, if you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold the ball for three, four, five seconds, then everybody comes to a stop. That is one of the things we work with. But he has adjusted to it, he knows what it can do and he's willing to see its success."

"Carmelo's genuinely a solid person, a citizen, I think," Jackson said. "He has good intentions. I think some of the things that come along with him, I always say I can go back to [Syracuse coach Jim] Boeheim and say that was the zone that he played in college. But that's just a joke I have with him. The aspect of learning in the NBA and developing habits become entrenched, and sometimes you have to break those habits to change your manner of playing, and I think that's one of the things he's had to do with this new group of guys. It's a little bit different. He doesn't have sole possession of the offense. There are other people that are involved in the offense, and he embraces that. But then you still have habits you have to break, and I think that's one of the things.

Defensively, we've talked to him a lot about movement and that aspect of -- we're now into high-performance things, where we have cameras that can legislate or watch movement on the court all the time -- each have, you can go back and check that. We're trying to get him to get more active as a defensive player. That's one of the things that I think is noticeable, that he has changed. And we're liking that."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Did Melo start a mutiny? Was it Jeff or Rambis that he had the issue with when he had the locker room blowup? The only thing I remember coming out about Melo being upset was when Jeff said the team wasn't competing for a playoff spot and were going to work on player development. I can't imagine that that was what was planned for year three of Phil. At some point when things don't work you need to try something else, not try the same thing harder. Melo was already traded by Phil if Doc didn't back out. Not sure when it is ok for players to get frustrated when winning just isnt happening but year three seems to show patience and restraint.

I think it will be very interesting to see how guys respond to Jeff at training camp. KP, Willy, Melo, Lee, all publicly expressed frustration or supported teammates when they did. Jeff/Rambis may not have a long shelf life. I think that locker room was pretty toxic and I don't think moving Melo just fixes it.

The culture in that locker took a major hit with rose RAPE trial, even though it was bogus to begin with.

Then came noah's and lance (no one even talks about lance anymore, I almost for got he was on the roster)injuries, then came roses awol with no suspension, then came Rambis being appointed defensive coordinator, then the phils comments, then lee's triangle comments, then Jennings triangle comments, then rose triangle comments.

People also forget that when the playoff push was officially dead, melo did pass the ball more and tried to help the youngsters, there were some games he barely shot the ball.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Sinix wrote:The Knicks are a cluster f*** and one of, if not, the most hopeless NBA franchise right now.

What world are you living in where the Knicks are making a comeback? This offseason has been an utter disaster.

The Knicks took a step back culture wise, getting Dolan back into the mix, making 'win now' moves while not even being a playoff club. The negative culture is tied with players like Melo, which his play style is being passed down to the young players because we've failed to turn the page on him in a timely fashion.

The Knicks did almost everything wrong they could of done wrong. I don't see any way you can turn this into a comeback story. The more likely story is no playoffs for the foreseeable future in an epicly weak conference, not high enough draft picks, cap tied up for years and the worst management culture because of Dolan.

As long as one move isn't made the Knicks will continue to go down the wrong path. I like the youth movement but I feel it is and will be corrupted by an ego that only wants thing his way.

There's is no one on these boards that think any move the knicks have made so far is a win now move.

what your saying in (so many words) is that the knicks should get rid of your favorite whipping boy no matter the cost, even if it means crippling the franchise finacially for the next 3 to 4 yrs.

Melo didn't create the current culture, phil did by his actions and the way he handle things in a very unprofessional and in experience way, your smart enough to know that. The knicks as a whole have handle a lot of things wrong since the start of last off season..

How about if Melo actually passed the ball as he promised and gave a FLIP about defense and running the floor as Jeff asked him to do? How about if Melo didn't start a near Mutiny but rather took the side of the Coach in a positive way like most REAL team leaders do? Phil would not have had to say anything if Melo was doing what he was supposed to be doing. People keep making excuses for Melo and bashing Phil, but what exactly was it that Phil was asking?

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.
"Carmelo, a lot of times, wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule, if you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold the ball for three, four, five seconds, then everybody comes to a stop. That is one of the things we work with. But he has adjusted to it, he knows what it can do and he's willing to see its success."

"Carmelo's genuinely a solid person, a citizen, I think," Jackson said. "He has good intentions. I think some of the things that come along with him, I always say I can go back to [Syracuse coach Jim] Boeheim and say that was the zone that he played in college. But that's just a joke I have with him. The aspect of learning in the NBA and developing habits become entrenched, and sometimes you have to break those habits to change your manner of playing, and I think that's one of the things he's had to do with this new group of guys. It's a little bit different. He doesn't have sole possession of the offense. There are other people that are involved in the offense, and he embraces that. But then you still have habits you have to break, and I think that's one of the things.

Defensively, we've talked to him a lot about movement and that aspect of -- we're now into high-performance things, where we have cameras that can legislate or watch movement on the court all the time -- each have, you can go back and check that. We're trying to get him to get more active as a defensive player. That's one of the things that I think is noticeable, that he has changed. And we're liking that."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Did Melo start a mutiny? Was it Jeff or Rambis that he had the issue with when he had the locker room blowup? The only thing I remember coming out about Melo being upset was when Jeff said the team wasn't competing for a playoff spot and were going to work on player development. I can't imagine that that was what was planned for year three of Phil. At some point when things don't work you need to try something else, not try the same thing harder. Melo was already traded by Phil if Doc didn't back out. Not sure when it is ok for players to get frustrated when winning just isnt happening but year three seems to show patience and restraint.

I think it will be very interesting to see how guys respond to Jeff at training camp. KP, Willy, Melo, Lee, all publicly expressed frustration or supported teammates when they did. Jeff/Rambis may not have a long shelf life. I think that locker room was pretty toxic and I don't think moving Melo just fixes it.

It starts on the court. Jeff's hands were tied. He tried to make it work under the parameters he was given. Starting with a system pushed by the team president and a star veteran player with an NTC that plays a certain way and has a very strong locker room presence. Think about the day2day of coaching an NBA team and what that consists of. How do you go over game tape and push defense without constantly calling out your star player (Who ranked #420 defensively)? You cant. So you have to avoid and and work on better execution of other areas, else you come off as blaming Melo and he turns the locker room against you.

Remove Melo and what are you left with?

And here is why Sinix is dead wrong. He's just a pissy someone pooped in my cocoa puffs kind of guy anyway, but he's wrong. Despite Phil's phuckups he gave us what we needed... some stinky years, some young players worth building around and a long leash for the next guy with a plan.
As a build around core KP/Willy/Frank/THjr is a great start. KP is easily one of the NBA's best prospects. I always ask the same question.. who are the NBA's best players in rookie contracts?
1) KAT
2) KP
3) hodgepodge

Willy is a nice mix of Horford and Gasol. He's got plenty to learn but has the makings of a high end player at the 5. If we can leave KP at the 4 he could possibly becomes the best NBA help defender... ever. THjr really made nice strides. His inside outside game really blossomed last year and of course you have young Frank who is good at everything. What would be really key is if another young guy pops. I think Dotson has a great shot, but 2nd rounders are 2nd rounders. Seeing is believing. Maybe Ron Baker takes a big step forward and hits the 3 like he did @ Wichita. People forget a big part of the reason we got off to such a good start during KP's rookie season was Langston Galloway came out playing great D and hitting every 3 he made. It wasnt sustainable but thats not the point. The point was the impact. Can Ron Baker mimic that?

To me that is a clear departure and it does seem to me like Hornacek is going to gel better with a smaller personality like Scott Perry. Phil was too big for his own good to get on the same page or listen to anyone else and oh so so so old-fashioned.

To me if Frank N does not pan out and I sure hope he does...we still get a great pick in next years draft which is also supposed to be good. KOQ and Lee are good character non-poisonous citizens on our team. I can see them molding the youngsters well.

The fact that Mills is clearly stating no dealing away draft picks tells me we are going to build through the draft and have Timmy and KP the focal point of the offense and hopefully with Hornacek's "defensive pride" words, focal point of the defense along with Frank N.

Future already looks better if those hold true.