CrushAlot wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I posted this in the other thread but it is more apt here....

KCP 13.8 pts. 2.5 ast. 3.5 rbs. Better defender. 6-5, 205, 24 yrs old.

THJR 14.5 pts. 2.3 ast. 2.8 rbs. Better offensively. 6-6, 205, 25 yrs old.

Where is the outcry of what a horrible signing this is by the Lakers? Where is the "This guy ain't worth the money" national twitter outcry? I know it's for a year. So what? So know if he blows up he can just walk. Oh wait, does the whole damned if you do, damned if you don't principle only apply to the Knicks?

The anti Knick bias is annoying. I posted earlier that I think the reaction from the media would be very different if the Hawks matched the offer. I also think that targeting a guy that fits what you want to do with your team and going out and getting him is the right approach. The Lakers traded Russell to drop salary to get PG. there is a good chance that doesn't happen and that the lakers gave up a star player to move a bad contract. I haven't seen any media talk about this bi ae heard about hw hat a good player Bropez is though.

mlby1215 wrote:I said it is not about him , it is about the management.

Would Mills trade Lee for cap space? of course not. It would be Lee or someone who took the same space.

Would Mills trade Noah for cap space? He probably wants but it is not realistic.

Would Mills trade Melo for cap space? I said it is not how he has been doing. He doesn't trade cap space for picks like Sean Marks. He wants to get better.

Everything I said is not about how Mills should do things. I just said he doesn't plan on leaving any caps for 2019-2020, and this could be backfired because we cannot say something like "Listen, KP. We have caps and we can sign someone to help. Just stay with us. "

Currently, there are 2 ways we have space in 2019. One is to buyout Melo, let him expire or trade him for someone with shorter contracts.

The second one is we do not overspend faster than the speed the cap goes up. It is pretty hard, and probably it is not very much at the end. (The cap jump was one time thing and it has already jumped. )

I feel like I just retyped everything I said.

CrushAlot wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:The difference is that it is only 1 year. If he doesn't work, no harm to the future of Lakers.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/new-york-knicks-team-salary/

The second problem is that at 2019, KP will be RFA and we still have Lee, Noah and THjr on the book. It would be wise actually if we just buyout melo, let his contract expired, traded him for the same length or short contracts. The reason? We will need the cap badly at that time to convince KP that his future is here. If we are capped and is still doing bad, we will have very few options to stop him jumping boat. He would lose money if he just goes away, but he would not lose a penny if he forces Knicks doing S&T.

Moreover, Mills will probably take back a longer contract from Melo. He wants productive players to make the team better. If he didn't care about cap before (THjr and Baker) then why would he want to trade Melo for cap now?

This is why the signing of THjr is bad. It is not about him, it is about the management. The time is not right.

If KCP does work he gets a huge raise or leaves for nothing.
When is the time right to sign a young guy that you see as part of your future and you project to e a good fit on your team? Tim isn't a broke down quirky guy that connected with Mills and got a deal that crushes the cap. He isn't an older role player that would fit on a contending team that was given an overpay in a rebuild situation. In 2019 the only guy that should be on the books of the three that you mentioned is Tim. Noah was a bad signing by Phil and Phil loves Noah. Lee doesn't fit with the direction of the team and is an older vet. Management sees Tim as a fit and they went out and got him.

Ira wrote:On ESPN's real plus minus, THJr is the 15th ranked shooting guard. KCP is 29th. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/2

Obviously the contracts are significantly different, so can't really compare from that perspective. But there is no question that THJ is the better player.

joec32033 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I posted this in the other thread but it is more apt here....

KCP 13.8 pts. 2.5 ast. 3.5 rbs. Better defender. 6-5, 205, 24 yrs old.

THJR 14.5 pts. 2.3 ast. 2.8 rbs. Better offensively. 6-6, 205, 25 yrs old.

Where is the outcry of what a horrible signing this is by the Lakers? Where is the "This guy ain't worth the money" national twitter outcry? I know it's for a year. So what? So know if he blows up he can just walk. Oh wait, does the whole damned if you do, damned if you don't principle only apply to the Knicks?

You can't compare just the aspects that validate your argument and leave out the rest. If the Lakers already had a starting caliber SG on the books and had drafted a capable backup and then given KCP a 4 year deal with TRADE KICKER, while completely ignoring a position of need (Starting PG in our case) and using up all their available salary cap in the process, THEN you can compare the two moves and ask where is the outcry.

Ok. The Lakers had Russell. Have Clarkson. Traded Russell for a 7 foot er visit so they can draft a different PG. Seriously, the Knicks just underwent a HUGE philosophy shift. How about we see how it pans out for a bit before lambasting we are doomed for the next 20 years because of Tim Hardaway Jr.

Well they traded Russel so getting a replacement makes sense. I don't like the THJR deal, trade kicker and not getting a vet PG to help the very youth movement we claim to be committed to. If they clear space in a Melo deal and make good on that last one,I will be much more receptive of the THJR deal. I never said the sky was falling, but I don't like the deal. For the record, I didn't like when we traded Rolo for Rose or signed Noah either. I definitely have reservations about THJR's defensive capabilities.If he turns out to be as good as advertised CONSISTENTLY , then I won't have any issues with it.

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I posted this in the other thread but it is more apt here....

KCP 13.8 pts. 2.5 ast. 3.5 rbs. Better defender. 6-5, 205, 24 yrs old.

THJR 14.5 pts. 2.3 ast. 2.8 rbs. Better offensively. 6-6, 205, 25 yrs old.

Where is the outcry of what a horrible signing this is by the Lakers? Where is the "This guy ain't worth the money" national twitter outcry? I know it's for a year. So what? So know if he blows up he can just walk. Oh wait, does the whole damned if you do, damned if you don't principle only apply to the Knicks?

The anti Knick bias is annoying. I posted earlier that I think the reaction from the media would be very different if the Hawks matched the offer. I also think that targeting a guy that fits what you want to do with your team and going out and getting him is the right approach. The Lakers traded Russell to drop salary to get PG. there is a good chance that doesn't happen and that the lakers gave up a star player to move a bad contract. I haven't seen any media talk about this bi ae heard about hw hat a good player Bropez is though.

is is annoying but only changed by winning and winning for some time. During the one blip (54 wins) we just never heard any of this... only about basketball. Its what the Knicks give the writers to work with. IF the Knicks are +.500 ball after 40 games next year people will start talking about the team again, and not the org. They have to bail themselves out of this hole. The Yankees had to do it. The Jets are mired in it, the Mets have dealt with this... nature of the beast. It does get annoying when every media outlet just poops on every blip that comes out just because...

Begrudgingly, i have to agree fish. I think this team needs that one break where they find a guy that is a career Pres/GM/Coach that defines a culture here.

TripleThreat wrote:

joec32033 wrote:Where is the outcry of what a horrible signing this is by the Lakers? Where is the "This guy ain't worth the money" national twitter outcry? I know it's for a year. So what? So know if he blows up he can just walk. Oh wait, does the whole damned if you do, damned if you don't principle only apply to the Knicks?

KCP can operate as a large offset in a trade.

We all can't assume Cousins, George and Westbrook all end up on their respective teams for the entire season. A large expiring deal makes at least the matching issue somewhat feasible in a potential trade.

Hardaway is virtually untradeable now. That trade kicker and the length of the deal, also he hasn't established his improved play for long enough to show consistency.

The AAV spike is basically frontloading. Instead of a two year deal with a team option and a buyout portion that would impact next years cap, teams are just frontloading that 2nd year's cost into the one year deal.

Pope could pan out. Or not. Hardaway Jr could pan out. Or not.

Lakers simply have more options with the contract they gave out than the Knicks. Lakers don't have as much control, on the flip side, they aren't carrying as much long term liability either.

Comparing Pope to Hardaway Jr, IMHO, isn't a great basis to highlight the actual situation in play for each respective team here.

Hardaway virtually untradeable? Maybe right this second because of all the crap that has been spewed about this contract, but no contract is untradeable. This team once traded Brad freaking Lohaus on a bad contract.

The restbof what youbsaid is undoubtedly true, alot of "creative financing" involved here. And front loading that contract as you explained is a great way to minimize commitment. However itbalso sets prices. Now KCP is worth 18 mil per year. You dont think the Reddick deal had a tiny part to play in THJR's contract?

I'm comparing Pope to THJR not to highlight team situations, but to show not only the fact that a comparable player got a comparable per year contract from another large market team, but that this is the price the market in this NBA is going to bear for an average to potentially above average starting SG in this league. Everyone can say what they want about the 71 million. When negotiating contracts, it almost always comes down to the per year. Hardaway's cobtract is expensive, maybe a bit prohibitive, but the contracts in league right now are all absurd. Mozgov, Monroe...this started last year and noone is used to it yet.

joec32033 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I posted this in the other thread but it is more apt here....

KCP 13.8 pts. 2.5 ast. 3.5 rbs. Better defender. 6-5, 205, 24 yrs old.

THJR 14.5 pts. 2.3 ast. 2.8 rbs. Better offensively. 6-6, 205, 25 yrs old.

Where is the outcry of what a horrible signing this is by the Lakers? Where is the "This guy ain't worth the money" national twitter outcry? I know it's for a year. So what? So know if he blows up he can just walk. Oh wait, does the whole damned if you do, damned if you don't principle only apply to the Knicks?

You can't compare just the aspects that validate your argument and leave out the rest. If the Lakers already had a starting caliber SG on the books and had drafted a capable backup and then given KCP a 4 year deal with TRADE KICKER, while completely ignoring a position of need (Starting PG in our case) and using up all their available salary cap in the process, THEN you can compare the two moves and ask where is the outcry.

Ok. The Lakers had Russell. Have Clarkson. Traded Russell for a 7 foot er visit so they can draft a different PG. Seriously, the Knicks just underwent a HUGE philosophy shift. How about we see how it pans out for a bit before lambasting we are doomed for the next 20 years because of Tim Hardaway Jr.

Well they traded Russel so getting a replacement makes sense. I don't like the THJR deal, trade kicker and not getting a vet PG to help the very youth movement we claim to be committed to. If they clear space in a Melo deal and make good on that last one,I will be much more receptive of the THJR deal. I never said the sky was falling, but I don't like the deal. For the record, I didn't like when we traded Rolo for Rose or signed Noah either. I definitely have reservations about THJR's defensive capabilities.If he turns out to be as good as advertised CONSISTENTLY , then I won't have any issues with it.

You are making my point for me. LA had a plan. I am not saying Mills is a great GM/Pres. Or whatever he is, just that this team literally stopped on a dime and changed plans. Regardless, of whatever you think of Mills you have to give him a minute. What of this strategy leads to getting rid of Lee and Melo, and doing a real rebuild? What if this strategy leads to Porzingis actually developing? What of 1 step back leads to 2 or 3 steps forward?

Its a lot of what ifs for a franchise that hasn't earned any trust, but you have to give the guy time.

I have said multiple times if that signing is followed by regaining cap space in the Melo trade or with moving Lee or both, I will change how I view Mills. I am just not willing to impute that he had a master plan based on this one move.

Go back to this case, if you want a young core, fine. But first you have to know this guy must be actually good. 71mil is too much because you cannot retreat, regroup then change your plan. Next year will be totally capped. If the rumor is true that Mills exchange Melo for another 4 years contract, then how could he get out of it if it doesn't work? There is one important difference between Noah and THjr. It is bad that we signed a injured player (Noah was 73% ft player just 3 years ago), but it was not that important for win/lose. We still had, like 4, centers. Willy, O'Quinn, KP and Plumlee. We were bad not because we had Noah. We were bad because our defense was bad.

But THjr? Let's hope he balls out, because our guards are rather weak and young. THjr, Baker, Lee and our first pick then our second pick. If THjr is injured, we just do not have plan B.

This is why it is very risky to sign another 71mil at the moment. At the very least we should have signed him just for 2 years. Then we would still have the choice to regroup when KP is RFA.

I mean, what is the extreme upper side for THjr? Kobe? MJ? Westbrook? How much could he develop further before we think "Well, he is worth contract"? Maybe he will but it'd better it happens sooner than later because the last year is player option.

If we really try to go young, we should use our caps for more picks, like Nets. We should try to use that money on a number of guys instead of gambling starter money on a young player. THjr and Baker take away every caps we have. It is no return.

But honestly, we should know why. How a team is operated often doesn't depends on basketball reasons. Mills got everything Phil left to him and you want him to tank? He just wants to win. Our fans like to shi t on Phil so everyday we talks like he did nothing for us. But actually he has done a lot. He left behind a lot of assets to the next guy.

Like Isiah Thomas, Mills is going to do something. Maybe he can succeed, or not, it doesn't matter. His time is now.

Oh, did I answer you directly when we should lock down a player to be one of core? Let's say, THjr just have improved a lot on offense AND defense then we sign him long term. If we are not that sure then we can still sign him shorter term. We just do not give away everything then pray "Please Thjr. You have to get better on offense and defense." Let a player earns it first, then sign it. Don't try to be funny. It will not be end of the world if the offer get matched. There is 17mil and you always can find someone else cheaper to gamble on. You must be able to find more young guys, especially you have Gaine Jr. (in case he is still willing to be here)

If we are capped then go to 8 seed or just miss the playoff every year, I don't know how much Gaine Jr. can do.

CrushAlot wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:I said it is not about him , it is about the management.

Would Mills trade Lee for cap space? of course not. It would be Lee or someone who took the same space.

Would Mills trade Noah for cap space? He probably wants but it is not realistic.

Would Mills trade Melo for cap space? I said it is not how he has been doing. He doesn't trade cap space for picks like Sean Marks. He wants to get better.

Everything I said is not about how Mills should do things. I just said he doesn't plan on leaving any caps for 2019-2020, and this could be backfired because we cannot say something like "Listen, KP. We have caps and we can sign someone to help. Just stay with us. "

Currently, there are 2 ways we have space in 2019. One is to buyout Melo, let him expire or trade him for someone with shorter contracts.

The second one is we do not overspend faster than the speed the cap goes up. It is pretty hard, and probably it is not very much at the end. (The cap jump was one time thing and it has already jumped. )

I feel like I just retyped everything I said.

CrushAlot wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:The difference is that it is only 1 year. If he doesn't work, no harm to the future of Lakers.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/new-york-knicks-team-salary/

The second problem is that at 2019, KP will be RFA and we still have Lee, Noah and THjr on the book. It would be wise actually if we just buyout melo, let his contract expired, traded him for the same length or short contracts. The reason? We will need the cap badly at that time to convince KP that his future is here. If we are capped and is still doing bad, we will have very few options to stop him jumping boat. He would lose money if he just goes away, but he would not lose a penny if he forces Knicks doing S&T.

Moreover, Mills will probably take back a longer contract from Melo. He wants productive players to make the team better. If he didn't care about cap before (THjr and Baker) then why would he want to trade Melo for cap now?

This is why the signing of THjr is bad. It is not about him, it is about the management. The time is not right.

If KCP does work he gets a huge raise or leaves for nothing.
When is the time right to sign a young guy that you see as part of your future and you project to e a good fit on your team? Tim isn't a broke down quirky guy that connected with Mills and got a deal that crushes the cap. He isn't an older role player that would fit on a contending team that was given an overpay in a rebuild situation. In 2019 the only guy that should be on the books of the three that you mentioned is Tim. Noah was a bad signing by Phil and Phil loves Noah. Lee doesn't fit with the direction of the team and is an older vet. Management sees Tim as a fit and they went out and got him.

The question was a simple one though that wasn't answered despite the re-typing. When is the right time to sign and lockup a player that you see as a part of your future core?

TripleThreat wrote:

joec32033 wrote:Hardaway virtually untradeable? Maybe right this second because of all the crap that has been spewed about this contract, but no contract is untradeable. This team once traded Brad freaking Lohaus on a bad contract.

The restbof what youbsaid is undoubtedly true, alot of "creative financing" involved here. And front loading that contract as you explained is a great way to minimize commitment. However itbalso sets prices. Now KCP is worth 18 mil per year. You dont think the Reddick deal had a tiny part to play in THJR's contract?

I'm comparing Pope to THJR not to highlight team situations, but to show not only the fact that a comparable player got a comparable per year contract from another large market team, but that this is the price the market in this NBA is going to bear for an average to potentially above average starting SG in this league. Everyone can say what they want about the 71 million. When negotiating contracts, it almost always comes down to the per year. Hardaway's cobtract is expensive, maybe a bit prohibitive, but the contracts in league right now are all absurd. Mozgov, Monroe...this started last year and noone is used to it yet.

Maybe a better distinction is it's less than likely that Hardaway will be someone who can be traded as a net positive asset for another net positive asset under the current league marketplace structure.

If you are saying a contract dump ( like Mozgov recently) or a "challenge trade" ( i.e. Arenas for Rashard Lewis, bad players and bad contracts trying to cancel each other out), then sure, "anything" is possible. But it's not garnering a positive asset for the Knicks.

You've got a lot of interesting things to say about the marketplace, I give you that. I appreciate that you do and have your legwork up on the CBA.

My personal take is KCP's contract is not going to reset the market. It's a function of the cap rising sharply without a smoothing option, the choking out of cap space as the market is about to collapse again and a byproduct of wanting to create a bridge for the trade deadline that is cap flexible moving forward.

You'd have a strong point if the current trend was sustainable, but it's not. More and more teams are edging into the tax zone, lots of GMs are just trying to keep their jobs right now, they aren't thinking 2 years/3 years from now, because they aren't sure there will be a 2 years or 3 years down the road for them.

Hardaway Jr's contract IMHO is more of a function of Mills trying to keep his job ( the target is squarely on his back right now) and that the Knicks cannot compete in the FA marketplace because they just have a very toxic environment and more players have better options moving forward.

The 71 million contract is not a benchmark, it's a byproduct of why the bubble is soon going to pop and likely lead the NBA into it's next lockout and next major labor war. The system in place has too much dysfunction involved. In order to survive, the league is going to have to shift to widespread use of non guaranteed contracts and a hard cap.

Overall, the signing of Tim Jr is a high risk/low reward situation.

Just because the other lemmings are jumping over the edge of the cliff, doesn't mean the Knicks had to do it. But they did.

I agree with most of what you said. This model isn't sustainable. It is gonna collapse hard.

Will a Tim Hardaway trade be a net negative? I don't know. I think Mills never wanted to trade Hardaway and Jackson did, and Jax won. This is Mills going in his own direction. We will never know what Atl would have matched, but we are watching comparable players getting comparable contracts to THJR.

In regards to the owners all it takes is one idiot to set a comp. The owners always have to be saved from themselves.