newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:Jeff has his input i'm sure. The strange thing is that since the Knicks allowed Phil to do the draft and UDFA's they had to have some agreement on the kind of players Phil would choose. I can't believe that they just suddenly decided Phil had to go AFTER the draft and were completely in disagreement on his philosophy about which players to draft and sign. There was no logic to the timing.

So Mills, Jeff and likely Gaines approve of the players Phil brought in. It's not just NOW that they'd be listening to Jeff. However, Mills probably did disagree with Phil about a player like THJ. I'm pretty sure the whole staff disagreed with Phil's pugnacious stance towards Melo and KP, with the exception of Rambis maybe.

Don't be surprised if Jeff still runs Triangle as a Halfcourt set unless he calls for something else. It's a nice fallback so that everyone knows what to do. Plus the team is pretty much setup for it already due to Phil's picks. Also Rambis is still here which seems to indicate they'll possibly still use some Triangle. I'd also expect to see some HORNS sets from Jeff. He can whip out the entire arsenal now.

IMO its more than just input. IMO he sold Mills on Baker which is why Mills felt comfortable giving him the 2 years 9mil. I don't think Mills offered that contract based on his own intuition on Baker as a prospect. Baker is a guy that JH believes he can develop and trust to execute what JH wants.

Same with Hardaway jr. I don't see Mills taking a risk like. The safe thing for Mills to have done this off season would be just to sign Rondo and keep Melo. But by moving Melo, JH stands to gain control of the team. Then he has Baker to be *his guy* that he can trust. Hardaway Jr is a young athletic guard with potential that JH might feel he can take to another level with his style. Like he did with Gerald Green.

Sinix wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Sinix wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Sinix wrote:What makes you think Jeff has any political pull at all within the Knicks?

I can name a ton of Knicks higher than him on the food chain which includes some players he's supposed to have authority over.

Because when you break it down all of these moves benefit Jeff. There may be people higher up on the food chain. But they are mostly followers who just want to be comfortable and don't want to be burdened with making the tough basketball decisions(just a guess). Which cleared a path for Jeff to give them direction.

It makes sense though. Jeff is a young guy and said to be a bright mind. Build a young team with him and let him grow and build up his credibility to where he gains that type of respect from players. Take away all the road block type of players and give him the keys to build something.

Out of all the people in the FO he might be the only one with any type of real potential.

Give me one reason why Jeff would have political power within the Knicks.

He's not a hall of fame coach and there's very little penalty for firing him. There's very little investment into him that the Knicks can't get out of in the snap of the fingers.

I see it more as he's a spineless jellyfish so he's been useful to the NY Knicks swamp that were previously focused on ejecting Phil.

I get the feel if he ever tries to discipline any of the long lasting players, Jeff is done with the Knicks. Probably why he sucks on KP's ass even though KP won't return a text from him.

Because he is likeable. All he would need to gain political power would be to have Mills ear. The moves speak as if that's the case. If the Knicks signed Rondo and were intent with keeping Melo and told Jeff to make it work and get to the playoffs. Then It would be clear that Jeff is simply a soldier marching to orders. But going for Hardaway, retaining Baker at 2 yrs 9mil, looking to move on from Melo are all things that favor Jeff.

I'm sure they want Jeff to succeed. He's their dang coach. But that is a far cry from him having political power.

The front office doesn't have a clue about coaching a team. All the coaching decisions should be Horny's from now on. Until he gets fired.

Dagger wrote:Hornacek is spineless

Coaches in the modern NBA have close to no power.

The illusion that Gregg Poppovich is some kind of mental mojo warrior is just that. If Duncan and Parker and Ginobili simply decided to be selfish douchebags, he'd get run down and run out like most coaches in this league.

The player corps is very very thin and top heavy. Contracts are guaranteed. The talent base is height dependent. ( Think about that, how many people ON EARTH, are 6'8 and can move with elite athleticism? You are talking a fraction of a very small percentage of people everywhere)

One of the reasons point guard has such low positional value in the league is it's simply much easier to find a 6'2 guy out there than it is to find a 7'2 guy. But still, the mean height in western countries is like 5'9. Only 12 percent of all adult males are 6 feet or over.

The talent gaps are huge too between tiers. The difference between the top 2-4 players in the league from the rest is staggering. The difference between the top 10 to 25 to the rest is also staggering. The 15th man on most teams could destroy most other non pro basketball competition anywhere.

Guys like D'Antoni seem weak. They seem like "players coaches" Pringles was interviewed once and maybe he was a little drunk that night because he was very candid. He was asked about his reputation as a players coach. He said I could tell players to do something, and if they don't want to do it, I can't make them. Why push into something I can't enforce?

Most NBA players are poorly educated and poorly socialized. Many grew up without father figures. Many are young and entitled and a bunch of spoiled brats. Andres Biedrins decides he wants to spend his life clubbing. Not when he retires, but right in the middle of a huge contract that forces the team to pay him to just hang out and drift a long like a douchebag. What is the coach going to do? Stick a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger?

I've seen the same sad narrative over and over - Melo just needs a strong minded coach he can respect!

Without any rational consideration that it's just quite possible and likely that Melo just doesn't have it within him to respect anything period. Melo tries on defense sometimes, when he wants to get someone fired or he wants a new contract or something else self serving besides that little thing called winning. And people applaud him. People here said it when Pringles got canned. "Well at least Melo will try now" Way to set the bar so damn low.

Coach K had a choice. Stay in college and be a living God there. Or come to the pros, and get treated like garbage in a situation where he'd lose all his power and ability to enforce discipline. People complain about the quality of coaches without considering a lot of coaching talent will just be happier in the college ranks. Jerry Sloan decided, ah, just screw it. That should say something about the state of coaching in the NBA.

Guys like Spolestra and Carlisle and Pop are talented, but also VERY LUCKY to be with very specific franchises that support them. Most coaches are not in this situation.

Sprewell CHOKED HIS COACH. TWICE. He choked him, left, CAME BACK AND CHOKED HIM AGAIN. And still played in this league. In any other sport, Sprewell would be dead. I'm not talking figurative dead. I'm talking the league would send its private security element to find Sprewell, fashion a lovely note for him and then someone would find him hanging from his garage. Do you think he would pull that crap in the NFL? With someone like Belichick. Gilbert Arenas wants to leave a bunch of handguns around his locker room, in MLB, he would have been surrounded and gunned down like a dog in the streets. NBA players have no clue. They have no idea how good they have it.

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:Jeff has his input i'm sure. The strange thing is that since the Knicks allowed Phil to do the draft and UDFA's they had to have some agreement on the kind of players Phil would choose. I can't believe that they just suddenly decided Phil had to go AFTER the draft and were completely in disagreement on his philosophy about which players to draft and sign. There was no logic to the timing.

So Mills, Jeff and likely Gaines approve of the players Phil brought in. It's not just NOW that they'd be listening to Jeff. However, Mills probably did disagree with Phil about a player like THJ. I'm pretty sure the whole staff disagreed with Phil's pugnacious stance towards Melo and KP, with the exception of Rambis maybe.

Don't be surprised if Jeff still runs Triangle as a Halfcourt set unless he calls for something else. It's a nice fallback so that everyone knows what to do. Plus the team is pretty much setup for it already due to Phil's picks. Also Rambis is still here which seems to indicate they'll possibly still use some Triangle. I'd also expect to see some HORNS sets from Jeff. He can whip out the entire arsenal now.

IMO its more than just input. IMO he sold Mills on Baker which is why Mills felt comfortable giving him the 2 years 9mil. I don't think Mills offered that contract based on his own intuition on Baker as a prospect. Baker is a guy that JH believes he can develop and trust to execute what JH wants.

Same with Hardaway jr. I don't see Mills taking a risk like. The safe thing for Mills to have done this off season would be just to sign Rondo and keep Melo. But by moving Melo, JH stands to gain control of the team. Then he has Baker to be *his guy* that he can trust. Hardaway Jr is a young athletic guard with potential that JH might feel he can take to another level with his style. Like he did with Gerald Green.

I agree about Baker. I think Mills may have always liked Hardaway.

Jeff isn't worrying about the cap etc. If Jeff can get Hardaway jr over Lee he will be happy to take that. There even was a statement of them playing Hardaway and Lee together as the SG-SF. Now look back at the Suns during Jeffs first year. He played very small with guards from the 1-3 & Frye at Center shooting 3s.

TripleThreat wrote:

Dagger wrote:Hornacek is spineless

Coaches in the modern NBA have close to no power.

The illusion that Gregg Poppovich is some kind of mental mojo warrior is just that. If Duncan and Parker and Ginobili simply decided to be selfish douchebags, he'd get run down and run out like most coaches in this league.

The player corps is very very thin and top heavy. Contracts are guaranteed. The talent base is height dependent. ( Think about that, how many people ON EARTH, are 6'8 and can move with elite athleticism? You are talking a fraction of a very small percentage of people everywhere)

One of the reasons point guard has such low positional value in the league is it's simply much easier to find a 6'2 guy out there than it is to find a 7'2 guy. But still, the mean height in western countries is like 5'9. Only 12 percent of all adult males are 6 feet or over.

The talent gaps are huge too between tiers. The difference between the top 2-4 players in the league from the rest is staggering. The difference between the top 10 to 25 to the rest is also staggering. The 15th man on most teams could destroy most other non pro basketball competition anywhere.

Guys like D'Antoni seem weak. They seem like "players coaches" Pringles was interviewed once and maybe he was a little drunk that night because he was very candid. He was asked about his reputation as a players coach. He said I could tell players to do something, and if they don't want to do it, I can't make them. Why push into something I can't enforce?

Most NBA players are poorly educated and poorly socialized. Many grew up without father figures. Many are young and entitled and a bunch of spoiled brats. Andres Biedrins decides he wants to spend his life clubbing. Not when he retires, but right in the middle of a huge contract that forces the team to pay him to just hang out and drift a long like a douchebag. What is the coach going to do? Stick a gun in his mouth and pull the trigger?

I've seen the same sad narrative over and over - Melo just needs a strong minded coach he can respect!

Without any rational consideration that it's just quite possible and likely that Melo just doesn't have it within him to respect anything period. Melo tries on defense sometimes, when he wants to get someone fired or he wants a new contract or something else self serving besides that little thing called winning. And people applaud him. People here said it when Pringles got canned. "Well at least Melo will try now" Way to set the bar so damn low.

Coach K had a choice. Stay in college and be a living God there. Or come to the pros, and get treated like garbage in a situation where he'd lose all his power and ability to enforce discipline. People complain about the quality of coaches without considering a lot of coaching talent will just be happier in the college ranks. Jerry Sloan decided, ah, just screw it. That should say something about the state of coaching in the NBA.

Guys like Spolestra and Carlisle and Pop are talented, but also VERY LUCKY to be with very specific franchises that support them. Most coaches are not in this situation.

Sprewell CHOKED HIS COACH. TWICE. He choked him, left, CAME BACK AND CHOKED HIM AGAIN. And still played in this league. In any other sport, Sprewell would be dead. I'm not talking figurative dead. I'm talking the league would send its private security element to find Sprewell, fashion a lovely note for him and then someone would find him hanging from his garage. Do you think he would pull that crap in the NFL? With someone like Belichick. Gilbert Arenas wants to leave a bunch of handguns around his locker room, in MLB, he would have been surrounded and gunned down like a dog in the streets. NBA players have no clue. They have no idea how good they have it.

Well that's the thing about Pops. He's like that player that knows his limitations and stays within his games.

You can't just put Pops on any team with any roster and expect his Spurs culture to come. Pops is as good as he is because management is on the same page as him and puts Duncan, Kawhi, Parker and Ginobili's who will help carry out his vision that he's on point with.

Compare this to the Knicks where the game plan is often interrupted by Dolan. And where Duncan and Kawhi and the others carry out the Spurs leadership game plan, we have Carmelo Anthony's on the Knicks that scream at our young players when they publicly praise the game plan the front office is giving them

Pops would never work on a team like the Knicks but I don't think that's a knock on Pops. More a knock on the Knicks. And a guy like Carmelo would never work as a Spur for the same reason Lamarcus Aldridge isn't.

nyknickzingis wrote:If Hornachek was really pulling the strings, like most coaches in his situation, he would have traded the 8th pick (Frank Ntilikina) for a veteran all star caliber point guard. Maybe Bledsoe or someone like that.

Why?
He is not going to have a job in a year if the team loses 55 to 60 games post-Melo trade which is the most likely scenario as it stands.

Some of us fans may be ready for a rebuild, but as a coach your job security is very low if you lose 51 and then even more than 51 games in your first two years as a head coach.

What I think is happening for sure is that Hornachek is giving Mills a good idea of what he needs and Mills is looking for those players in trade and free agency. Hornachek was picked by Phil Jackson because he has a good offense and knows how to collaberate fast breaking, high tempo offense that has become the norm of the NBA with some slower halfcourt system offense.

Those Suns teams that were competitive and .500 (or better in one year), they had Eric Bledsoe playing like an all-star with also Isiah Thomas in some years. We don't have those sort of guards on this team. If we want to give Hornachek a fair shot post-Melo trade, we should find a way to get him a star shot creator and shot maker. Hardaway is not enough. He can't carry a backcourt's demands for shot creating and shot making. Baker is solid, but best served starting next to star SG. Unless Hardaway is going to blow up into a 20 points a night star shooting guard, I don't see how Hornachek has enough to work with in his backcourt to have a fair shot at being a competitive team.

The team is about to lose 2 of their 3 best players in Melo and Rose. Melo and Rose did play selfish me first basketball, but there's no way you get better or stand a fair shot as a coach of being any good if you replace Derrick Rose with Ron Baker and Melo with Mo Harkless. Hornachek is likely gone in a year, unfortunately.

As it stands right now, I think we'll struggle to score more than 102 points a game. We may be decent enough to win 30 games if our defense improves considerably through better defensive players, but scoring will be a problem for this team as it stands right now. We don't have the talent to compete on a game to game basis and keep up with the teams who have talent to drop 105-110 points a game. This is even assuming Kristaps is better and can average 22 points a game. I think Willy can give us 14 a game, KP 22. Hardaway 15. After that, it's going to be slim pickings. None of the rest of these guys can bring it on a game to game basis. We'll struggle to score unless the role players we're bringing in our great fits in the system. Guys that literally are great at cutting and shooting open 3 pointers.

Phil was still in charge during the draft. And again its more about Mills leaning on Jeff's opinion then Jeff being the final say decision maker.

I see it differently. Going away from Rose, Melo, and going young with the #8 pick, Hardaway, Baker buys Jeff time. The expectations if we traded that #8 pick along with keeping Melo and other moves to win now puts Jeff immediately in the hot seat. We trade that #8 pick then fans will want ECC for the next 5 years. Going young Jeff has about 2 years unless the wheels fall off. With Melo on his way out that possible pit fall is avoided. He just needs KP to fall in love with him.