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Quietly Knicks have put together a lottery tanking type of young core without actually tanking
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knicks1248
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7/10/2017  2:36 PM
EnySpree wrote:The next story still isn't told yet. They still have this Melo trade and could pickup some good players. Plus they can sign people. So you never know what we're going to look like when the dust settles.

you know damn well, we wont get any good players, the knicks are dumping Melo, and mills is going to run this franchise 6 feet deep.

He is going to make Isaiah Thomas look like the best option since slice bread. He will get fired, along with everybody in the front office, it's just a matter of time.

ES
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Sinix
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7/10/2017  2:40 PM
Are we sure Isiah isn't currently advising Dolan? This dumpster fire of an offseason has Isiah written all over it. Maybe it's part of the reason that no one else wants to get involved.
NYKBocker
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7/10/2017  3:26 PM
Willy was drafted 2015-16...so that draft was a boom for us.

2016-17 We didn't have any picks yet we came out and got Baker and Plumlee.

I like what Phil has done in getting young players with talent.

Knickoftime
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7/10/2017  3:28 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
reub wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
Gudris wrote:You put Jokic over KP ? Jokic is good, but no way he is overall better than KP

When I do rankings, I try to be as unbiased as possible.
Based on last year, Jokic is the better player.
Based on longterm potential and talent, KP.

Can't give KP credit for that when he hasn't shown it yet. If you think Jokic is not better than KP based on last year, I think you're not following their numbers and overall impact.

Advanced stats show that Jokic was more than twice the player that KP was last year. Their first year he was almost twice the player that KP was.

Which advance metrics are those?


Win shares, on/off +/-, box plus minus, value or replacement, PER

They all show he was twice the player?


Some are closer to 1.99

I don't know what that means.

Knixkik
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7/10/2017  4:12 PM
When it's all said and done, there are only a handful of teams in the league that wouldn't trade their best player for KP. His value as an up and coming star on a rookie contract is among the best values in the league. Teams are open to rebuilding more than ever, and conceding to the Golden State/Cleveland runs. KP is the type of player Ainge will unload most of his major assets for. He was unwilling to do that for Cousins, Love, Butler, George, etc. He wants KP, Anthony Davis, Towns-type player/prospect. We have that player to build with, and have surrounded him with a few young building blocks. Now it's up to player development. I don't trust our player development one bit, but the talent is there to work with.
Bonn1997
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7/10/2017  5:33 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
reub wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
Gudris wrote:You put Jokic over KP ? Jokic is good, but no way he is overall better than KP

When I do rankings, I try to be as unbiased as possible.
Based on last year, Jokic is the better player.
Based on longterm potential and talent, KP.

Can't give KP credit for that when he hasn't shown it yet. If you think Jokic is not better than KP based on last year, I think you're not following their numbers and overall impact.

Advanced stats show that Jokic was more than twice the player that KP was last year. Their first year he was almost twice the player that KP was.

Which advance metrics are those?


Win shares, on/off +/-, box plus minus, value or replacement, PER

They all show he was twice the player?


Some are closer to 1.99

I don't know what that means.


LOL. It was my sarcastic way of saying of course Jokic's advanced stats are not literally twice as good. I'm sure NYK simply meant Jokic's stats are much better.
nixluva
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7/10/2017  6:04 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:The next story still isn't told yet. They still have this Melo trade and could pickup some good players. Plus they can sign people. So you never know what we're going to look like when the dust settles.

you know damn well, we wont get any good players, the knicks are dumping Melo, and mills is going to run this franchise 6 feet deep.

He is going to make Isaiah Thomas look like the best option since slice bread. He will get fired, along with everybody in the front office, it's just a matter of time.

You never win the trade for a Big name player when you're looking for youth and picks. At least not until you see what the pick turns into. That's not really the point tho. The Knicks have young studs that they need to develop and Melo is just a guy that will suck up touches and slow the young guys down. Melo no longer fits what the team is about.

As for the Doom and Gloom about Mills, I think it's different this time. We've NEVER had this many young quality drafted players as the core of the roster with a commitment to building around them. Knicks tried trading that youth for Melo and what makes you think they're looking to do that again???

knicks1248
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7/10/2017  6:17 PM
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:The next story still isn't told yet. They still have this Melo trade and could pickup some good players. Plus they can sign people. So you never know what we're going to look like when the dust settles.

you know damn well, we wont get any good players, the knicks are dumping Melo, and mills is going to run this franchise 6 feet deep.

He is going to make Isaiah Thomas look like the best option since slice bread. He will get fired, along with everybody in the front office, it's just a matter of time.

You never win the trade for a Big name player when you're looking for youth and picks. At least not until you see what the pick turns into. That's not really the point tho. The Knicks have young studs that they need to develop and Melo is just a guy that will suck up touches and slow the young guys down. Melo no longer fits what the team is about.

As for the Doom and Gloom about Mills, I think it's different this time. We've NEVER had this many young quality drafted players as the core of the roster with a commitment to building around them. Knicks tried trading that youth for Melo and what makes you think they're looking to do that again???

At the end of the day, you have to win in order to sustain a roster, were going young, but yet we re looking to sign RONDO..

I bet you anything, 3 things will happen in a trade for melo

1)were getting back longer and slightly lower salaries
2)were not getting a decent draft pick at all, unless the 3rd team is a very very bad one
3)we are not getting back a sure starter, just some fringe 3rd tier player who should be 8th in the rotation.

without melo, we have a injury prone roster (at least the key pieces) and zero depth

ES
newyorknewyork
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7/10/2017  6:34 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:The next story still isn't told yet. They still have this Melo trade and could pickup some good players. Plus they can sign people. So you never know what we're going to look like when the dust settles.

you know damn well, we wont get any good players, the knicks are dumping Melo, and mills is going to run this franchise 6 feet deep.

He is going to make Isaiah Thomas look like the best option since slice bread. He will get fired, along with everybody in the front office, it's just a matter of time.

You never win the trade for a Big name player when you're looking for youth and picks. At least not until you see what the pick turns into. That's not really the point tho. The Knicks have young studs that they need to develop and Melo is just a guy that will suck up touches and slow the young guys down. Melo no longer fits what the team is about.

As for the Doom and Gloom about Mills, I think it's different this time. We've NEVER had this many young quality drafted players as the core of the roster with a commitment to building around them. Knicks tried trading that youth for Melo and what makes you think they're looking to do that again???

At the end of the day, you have to win in order to sustain a roster, were going young, but yet we re looking to sign RONDO..

I bet you anything, 3 things will happen in a trade for melo

1)were getting back longer and slightly lower salaries
2)were not getting a decent draft pick at all, unless the 3rd team is a very very bad one
3)we are not getting back a sure starter, just some fringe 3rd tier player who should be 8th in the rotation.

without melo, we have a injury prone roster (at least the key pieces) and zero depth

Melo has 2 years left with us if he stays and he is 33 year old. Even if he doesn't decline as a player, we aren't going to build a realistic championship roster within this time frame. And it would be pure stupidity to trade future assets away in order to try and make something happen within this 2 year window. Give KP, Willy, Hardaway, Frank the expanded roles to grow together. They miss playoffs and end up in the lottery and add a lotto pick to continue to build with. Or package that pick with the other pick from the Melo trade for a proven stud.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
SocraticBallin22
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7/10/2017  9:48 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:You look at Sixers, Suns, Lakers, Kings, Magic. These teams are in the lottery every of the last few years, tanking as much as they can in most cases. The Knicks on the other hand were royally screwed with the pre-Phil Jackson era of poor trades with sending out draft picks. We lost two draft picks in the process of these last 4 drafts. Yet, here we are stacking up pretty ok against these complete tank projects.

Lets define real lottery level talent. Players who in a re-draft would still go in the lottery, top 10 to be more precise. Players that are first or second all rookie team caliber for their draft class.

Re-draft 2013-14 class

Giannis
Gobert
CJ
Porter
Shroedor
Oladipo
Noel
Hardaway

We have 8th best player (arguably).

Re-draft 2015-16 class

Towns
Jokic
Porzingis
Booker
Turner
Russell

We have the third best player from this draft class.

Re-draft the 2016-17 class

Embiid
Brongdon
Ingram
Brown
Hield
Saric
Dunn
Hernangomez
Murray

Willy's about in the 8-10 range for this class

Now for this most recent draft lets add Simmons, since he is coming over as a rookie now. A little early to judge, so lets go by draft order plus adding Simmons

Simmons
Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox
Isaac
Lauri
Smith (lets assume Dennis has proven he deserved to be drafted higher even though it's waaay early)
Ntilikina

So where we stand

Porzingis - 3rd best player of his class
Hardaway - 8th best player of his class
Willy - 8th best player of his class
Ntilikina - 10th pick type of projection

Like I said quietly, despite not having lost two draft picks in 4 years, we have been able to stock up on young talent that would be ranked very well amongst the draft class they entered the league with. I would argue for value, Porzingis (our best player) would only be second to Towns on the trade front. Say what you want about the dysfunction, the poor job Phil/Mills or whomever does, we have quietly put together 4 pieces that would make a good foundation for a re-build. Doesn't mean you win championships with these players in a year or two, but this is what re-building is all about.

Knicks need to be patient and keep drafting well. Lets see how Frank plays. I hope he shows why we picked him at 8. 7 foot wingspan, NBA level athleticims, 6'5 point guards do not grow on trees. He has a rare blend of talent, lets see if he can show why we drafted him. Youngest player in the league next year.

Way to take my idea with redrafting and run with it! We do have 4 core players with lottery talent under 25. Reasons to be optimistic.

knicks1248
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7/10/2017  10:48 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:The next story still isn't told yet. They still have this Melo trade and could pickup some good players. Plus they can sign people. So you never know what we're going to look like when the dust settles.

you know damn well, we wont get any good players, the knicks are dumping Melo, and mills is going to run this franchise 6 feet deep.

He is going to make Isaiah Thomas look like the best option since slice bread. He will get fired, along with everybody in the front office, it's just a matter of time.

You never win the trade for a Big name player when you're looking for youth and picks. At least not until you see what the pick turns into. That's not really the point tho. The Knicks have young studs that they need to develop and Melo is just a guy that will suck up touches and slow the young guys down. Melo no longer fits what the team is about.

As for the Doom and Gloom about Mills, I think it's different this time. We've NEVER had this many young quality drafted players as the core of the roster with a commitment to building around them. Knicks tried trading that youth for Melo and what makes you think they're looking to do that again???

At the end of the day, you have to win in order to sustain a roster, were going young, but yet we re looking to sign RONDO..

I bet you anything, 3 things will happen in a trade for melo

1)were getting back longer and slightly lower salaries
2)were not getting a decent draft pick at all, unless the 3rd team is a very very bad one
3)we are not getting back a sure starter, just some fringe 3rd tier player who should be 8th in the rotation.

without melo, we have a injury prone roster (at least the key pieces) and zero depth

Melo has 2 years left with us if he stays and he is 33 year old. Even if he doesn't decline as a player, we aren't going to build a realistic championship roster within this time frame. And it would be pure stupidity to trade future assets away in order to try and make something happen within this 2 year window. Give KP, Willy, Hardaway, Frank the expanded roles to grow together. They miss playoffs and end up in the lottery and add a lotto pick to continue to build with. Or package that pick with the other pick from the Melo trade for a proven stud.

Once we got KP, willy, kuz, and now frank, the idea should have been to bring CP3 here with melo, and start the process of playing winning basketball. Develop your youth in a winning culture, not build a losing team, only to watch KP, and maybe even willy, walk away to a team ready to win.

When does winning become a priority and not an option.

ES
Vmart
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7/10/2017  11:49 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:The next story still isn't told yet. They still have this Melo trade and could pickup some good players. Plus they can sign people. So you never know what we're going to look like when the dust settles.

you know damn well, we wont get any good players, the knicks are dumping Melo, and mills is going to run this franchise 6 feet deep.

He is going to make Isaiah Thomas look like the best option since slice bread. He will get fired, along with everybody in the front office, it's just a matter of time.

You never win the trade for a Big name player when you're looking for youth and picks. At least not until you see what the pick turns into. That's not really the point tho. The Knicks have young studs that they need to develop and Melo is just a guy that will suck up touches and slow the young guys down. Melo no longer fits what the team is about.

As for the Doom and Gloom about Mills, I think it's different this time. We've NEVER had this many young quality drafted players as the core of the roster with a commitment to building around them. Knicks tried trading that youth for Melo and what makes you think they're looking to do that again???

At the end of the day, you have to win in order to sustain a roster, were going young, but yet we re looking to sign RONDO..

I bet you anything, 3 things will happen in a trade for melo

1)were getting back longer and slightly lower salaries
2)were not getting a decent draft pick at all, unless the 3rd team is a very very bad one
3)we are not getting back a sure starter, just some fringe 3rd tier player who should be 8th in the rotation.

without melo, we have a injury prone roster (at least the key pieces) and zero depth

Melo has 2 years left with us if he stays and he is 33 year old. Even if he doesn't decline as a player, we aren't going to build a realistic championship roster within this time frame. And it would be pure stupidity to trade future assets away in order to try and make something happen within this 2 year window. Give KP, Willy, Hardaway, Frank the expanded roles to grow together. They miss playoffs and end up in the lottery and add a lotto pick to continue to build with. Or package that pick with the other pick from the Melo trade for a proven stud.

Once we got KP, willy, kuz, and now frank, the idea should have been to bring CP3 here with melo, and start the process of playing winning basketball. Develop your youth in a winning culture, not build a losing team, only to watch KP, and maybe even willy, walk away to a team ready to win.

When does winning become a priority and not an option.

You can't let should of and could have dictate what should be. CP3 was a trade and you would have lost assets a lot of assets. Once again you would have created a old and slow team. Just watch how they slow down Houston and the next step will be fire MDA.

Once again it's not as easy as 1,2,4,8.

Paris907
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7/11/2017  4:39 AM
IMO the 2017 draft is key. Phil chose Frank N who most see as high risk high reward and chose him in considerable part because of the Triangle - probably a relic by mid season. Knicks could have chose Monk or D Smith both of whom are potentially explosive offensive players though arguably not as well rounded as Frank N. if Frank ends up being a rotation player rather than a starter say by year 2, we will have blown the president pick. I think Smith will start in Dallas btw.
TripleThreat
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7/11/2017  6:20 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:You look at Sixers, Suns, Lakers, Kings, Magic. These teams are in the lottery every of the last few years, tanking as much as they can in most cases. The Knicks on the other hand were royally screwed with the pre-Phil Jackson era of poor trades with sending out draft picks. We lost two draft picks in the process of these last 4 drafts. Yet, here we are stacking up pretty ok against these complete tank projects.

So where we stand ......


Sorry, I think a lot of guys here are not seeing the bigger picture across the entire league landscape.

The NBA administration tried to push cooked lowered projections on the future cap in the preseason, mostly in reaction to Durant going to Golden State. Even with trying to create essentially "Here is so much money, you can't want to leave your original drafting team" strategy, players are figuring out you can still make 100 plus million in your career or more and still make it up on the back end in endorsements and other opportunities later if you win and contend.

What no one totally expected as that only 79 out of 105 playoff games possible were actually played. Even with the refs basically trying to drive series into extended situations to draw them out, the weakened East got hammered by the Cavs and Golden State just decimated the West. The league is becoming top heavy, which means shorter playoff series, more blowouts in these formats and fewer playoff games total. Which drives down the total revenue, which drives down the future cap.

Given that the cap actually did make a major jump without a smoothing option ( the owners here were right in the past, that kind of major jump would be great for players and the NBAPA short term, but long term it would hurt everyone, Michele Roberts is of course a big fat idiot, but no one can say that in public), a lot of very ugly contracts were signed, which is going to choke out the future cap situations for many teams in the next few seasons. Cap space is going to very valuable very soon, not to the degree in the past where Theo Ratliff's expiring deal was like gold from heaven, but more and more teams are going into the tax zone to try to retain their core players, and more and more teams are going to try to wiggle out of the tax in the near future.

What does this mean for the Knicks in the near future?

The East has been gutted. George and Butler are gone. Who knows who will be next. It means more Eastern teams will be weaker, making it harder for the Knicks to "organically tank" This will impact their future draft positions. The other issue is in an "organic tank", one of the reasons you are losing is you are trading off all of your more veteran talent for younger/cheaper assets for the future. The Knicks however can't do this. Noah is a dead contract, might be the worst in the league. Lee is a declining player and those last two years aren't looking so appetizing. In a relative sense, with the money getting thrown around, his deal though is more palatable to market conditions. Lance Thomas is a horrible contract. (Go to a Dollar Store sometime. Just because it's a dollar doesn't mean it's a "value" This defines Thomas and his contract. Just because it's cheaper in a relative sense doesn't mean it's a good way to spend money in a controlled setting like this) Hardaway just got a deal that has become virtually impossible to trade in the future. While market forces shifted the kind of offer the Knicks made, it's a market that's about to collapse. While Melo is likely to be moved, he's going to create a situation where at least one bad contract is going to have to come back to make the salaries match.

The Knicks have just enough veteran players to make organically tanking impossible in a gutted Eastern Conference, and these are players that will be tough to move in a choked out cap environment going forward. This could mean the difference between picking 12th in a draft versus picking 6th. You can see in this last draft, how much of a difference than can make. On the flip side, Western teams, the bottom rung ones, are going to get hammered down and its going to be easy to lose games. The Knicks and other Eastern teams are going to be competing to tank against those guys in the near future.

The Knicks have finally figured out it's time to organically tank, but the ideal time to do so was the past three years or so, when they were devoid of picks and when the league was discussing actual lottery reform in reaction to Philly's Process. That cap space they burned on Noah and Lee and Hardaway and what was Rose could have been used to churn the space for assets , much in the way Brooklyn did with DeMarre Carroll.

Warren Buffett once said - Be greedy when others are fearful, and fearful when others are greedy.

When the rest of the league was blowing money like nuts for guys like Biyambimbo during the cap spike, that was the time for the Knicks to show fiscal restraint. As long as they hit the cap floor, they didn't have to spend carelessly. Instead they doubled down in the face of the market that is going to collapse very soon.

Look at the Nets. Gutted in the Billy King era. They got a young GM who was groomed from a winning organization. They give the kid a free hand to run the team and the owner backs off. The GM and coach are on the same page. The GM has room to grow and have a future there long term if it works out. They are choking out other teams caps with RFA offer sheets they know other teams will match, to increase the value of their own cap space, which they are "renting" out to get future assets, cost controlled and draft quality. They already had a hard situation, they didn't make the future road any harder than it had to be.

The current Knicks, make the simple insanely hard. Everything is harder than it really has to be.

The Knicks are leap years behind most other teams in the league in a rebuild. Want to know how? Consider this. If you could trade the entire Knicks roster, front office and situation with every other team in the league, would you do it? Would you trade Zinger, FrankN, Hernangomez and these gaggle of bad contracts for Simmons, Embiid, Covington and Fultz and a stockpile of draft assets? Would you even hesitate? Going down the list of teams, it's hard to find many situations where the Knicks are preferable in a total trade franchise scenario.

This team isn't hopeless. But it's ugly. It's a self inflicted kind of ugly. And the few young guys they have with upside are likely going to leave as soon as they can.

The Knicks seemingly have no clue how the actual current and modern NBA marketplace operates. It's to the point where it's just bizarre. No other pro sport creates such limited utility in a rebuild and the Knicks can't even seem to get that part right. It's like being nailed in place in front of toilet with a bowl the size of Texas, and still pissing all over the floor around it anyway. It's like idiot kids who screw up their lives, go work for the family business, which is successful, and still screw it up ( younger Buss) How do you blow that?

Yes, if you look at the Knicks at some very specific angles, things look good.

Yes, if you are at 1:47 at a bar before it closes, some beer goggles will make that muffin top buck toothed chick with bad acne look like Ariana Grande.

The Knicks need to look good without the beer goggles. This should not be this hard. This is what makes all of this so ridiculous. You could literally get Tina Fey to write a sitcom about a pro sports team and just mirror the Knicks right now for the plotline. When your real life behavior, in a dire pursuit of success starts to look like a plot of an Amy Schumer movie, something is very wrong.

It's 2am guys, the bar is closing. The Knicks are a muffin top.

Bonn1997
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7/11/2017  6:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/11/2017  6:50 AM
SocraticBallin22 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:You look at Sixers, Suns, Lakers, Kings, Magic. These teams are in the lottery every of the last few years, tanking as much as they can in most cases. The Knicks on the other hand were royally screwed with the pre-Phil Jackson era of poor trades with sending out draft picks. We lost two draft picks in the process of these last 4 drafts. Yet, here we are stacking up pretty ok against these complete tank projects.

Lets define real lottery level talent. Players who in a re-draft would still go in the lottery, top 10 to be more precise. Players that are first or second all rookie team caliber for their draft class.

Re-draft 2013-14 class

Giannis
Gobert
CJ
Porter
Shroedor
Oladipo
Noel
Hardaway

We have 8th best player (arguably).

Re-draft 2015-16 class

Towns
Jokic
Porzingis
Booker
Turner
Russell

We have the third best player from this draft class.

Re-draft the 2016-17 class

Embiid
Brongdon
Ingram
Brown
Hield
Saric
Dunn
Hernangomez
Murray

Willy's about in the 8-10 range for this class

Now for this most recent draft lets add Simmons, since he is coming over as a rookie now. A little early to judge, so lets go by draft order plus adding Simmons

Simmons
Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox
Isaac
Lauri
Smith (lets assume Dennis has proven he deserved to be drafted higher even though it's waaay early)
Ntilikina

So where we stand

Porzingis - 3rd best player of his class
Hardaway - 8th best player of his class
Willy - 8th best player of his class
Ntilikina - 10th pick type of projection

Like I said quietly, despite not having lost two draft picks in 4 years, we have been able to stock up on young talent that would be ranked very well amongst the draft class they entered the league with. I would argue for value, Porzingis (our best player) would only be second to Towns on the trade front. Say what you want about the dysfunction, the poor job Phil/Mills or whomever does, we have quietly put together 4 pieces that would make a good foundation for a re-build. Doesn't mean you win championships with these players in a year or two, but this is what re-building is all about.

Knicks need to be patient and keep drafting well. Lets see how Frank plays. I hope he shows why we picked him at 8. 7 foot wingspan, NBA level athleticims, 6'5 point guards do not grow on trees. He has a rare blend of talent, lets see if he can show why we drafted him. Youngest player in the league next year.

Way to take my idea with redrafting and run with it! We do have 4 core players with lottery talent under 25. Reasons to be optimistic.


Once the guy is on a big contract (Timmy), it doesn't really matter where he would have been drafted IMO. Melo would have been drafted in the lottery too! Ntilikina hasn't played yet. KP and Willy are legit lottery players on rookie contracts.
nyknickzingis
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7/11/2017  7:48 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:You look at Sixers, Suns, Lakers, Kings, Magic. These teams are in the lottery every of the last few years, tanking as much as they can in most cases. The Knicks on the other hand were royally screwed with the pre-Phil Jackson era of poor trades with sending out draft picks. We lost two draft picks in the process of these last 4 drafts. Yet, here we are stacking up pretty ok against these complete tank projects.

Lets define real lottery level talent. Players who in a re-draft would still go in the lottery, top 10 to be more precise. Players that are first or second all rookie team caliber for their draft class.

Re-draft 2013-14 class

Giannis
Gobert
CJ
Porter
Shroedor
Oladipo
Noel
Hardaway

We have 8th best player (arguably).

Re-draft 2015-16 class

Towns
Jokic
Porzingis
Booker
Turner
Russell

We have the third best player from this draft class.

Re-draft the 2016-17 class

Embiid
Brongdon
Ingram
Brown
Hield
Saric
Dunn
Hernangomez
Murray

Willy's about in the 8-10 range for this class

Now for this most recent draft lets add Simmons, since he is coming over as a rookie now. A little early to judge, so lets go by draft order plus adding Simmons

Simmons
Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox
Isaac
Lauri
Smith (lets assume Dennis has proven he deserved to be drafted higher even though it's waaay early)
Ntilikina

So where we stand

Porzingis - 3rd best player of his class
Hardaway - 8th best player of his class
Willy - 8th best player of his class
Ntilikina - 10th pick type of projection

Like I said quietly, despite not having lost two draft picks in 4 years, we have been able to stock up on young talent that would be ranked very well amongst the draft class they entered the league with. I would argue for value, Porzingis (our best player) would only be second to Towns on the trade front. Say what you want about the dysfunction, the poor job Phil/Mills or whomever does, we have quietly put together 4 pieces that would make a good foundation for a re-build. Doesn't mean you win championships with these players in a year or two, but this is what re-building is all about.

Knicks need to be patient and keep drafting well. Lets see how Frank plays. I hope he shows why we picked him at 8. 7 foot wingspan, NBA level athleticims, 6'5 point guards do not grow on trees. He has a rare blend of talent, lets see if he can show why we drafted him. Youngest player in the league next year.

Way to take my idea with redrafting and run with it! We do have 4 core players with lottery talent under 25. Reasons to be optimistic.


Once the guy is on a big contract (Timmy), it doesn't really matter where he would have been drafted IMO. Melo would have been drafted in the lottery too! Ntilikina hasn't played yet. KP and Willy are legit lottery players on rookie contracts.

As THj said, he knows he is a young player who has to keep improving.
Melo is a very good player, who is declining.

While THj is on a huge contract, he is in his athletic prime, could still improve and fits KP/Willy/Ntilikina window for competing. In 2 years if KP is entering his prime or peak as a player, Willy as well and Frank's a well rounded 21 year old, at that point THj will be 27. He is still in his athletic prime and probably at the best portion of his career.

I think the timing and age of the signing made sense. The money is the big ????
THj is not a 71 M player. He would have gotten 50M max. We overpaid and THj has to show he is worth that money.
Still, I rather overpay a young player that could improve and has athletic prime years ahead vs overpaying veteran talent that is on the way down, best years way behind them.

fishmike
Posts: 53899
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
7/11/2017  8:11 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:You look at Sixers, Suns, Lakers, Kings, Magic. These teams are in the lottery every of the last few years, tanking as much as they can in most cases. The Knicks on the other hand were royally screwed with the pre-Phil Jackson era of poor trades with sending out draft picks. We lost two draft picks in the process of these last 4 drafts. Yet, here we are stacking up pretty ok against these complete tank projects.

Lets define real lottery level talent. Players who in a re-draft would still go in the lottery, top 10 to be more precise. Players that are first or second all rookie team caliber for their draft class.

Re-draft 2013-14 class

Giannis
Gobert
CJ
Porter
Shroedor
Oladipo
Noel
Hardaway

We have 8th best player (arguably).

Re-draft 2015-16 class

Towns
Jokic
Porzingis
Booker
Turner
Russell

We have the third best player from this draft class.

Re-draft the 2016-17 class

Embiid
Brongdon
Ingram
Brown
Hield
Saric
Dunn
Hernangomez
Murray

Willy's about in the 8-10 range for this class

Now for this most recent draft lets add Simmons, since he is coming over as a rookie now. A little early to judge, so lets go by draft order plus adding Simmons

Simmons
Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox
Isaac
Lauri
Smith (lets assume Dennis has proven he deserved to be drafted higher even though it's waaay early)
Ntilikina

So where we stand

Porzingis - 3rd best player of his class
Hardaway - 8th best player of his class
Willy - 8th best player of his class
Ntilikina - 10th pick type of projection

Like I said quietly, despite not having lost two draft picks in 4 years, we have been able to stock up on young talent that would be ranked very well amongst the draft class they entered the league with. I would argue for value, Porzingis (our best player) would only be second to Towns on the trade front. Say what you want about the dysfunction, the poor job Phil/Mills or whomever does, we have quietly put together 4 pieces that would make a good foundation for a re-build. Doesn't mean you win championships with these players in a year or two, but this is what re-building is all about.

Knicks need to be patient and keep drafting well. Lets see how Frank plays. I hope he shows why we picked him at 8. 7 foot wingspan, NBA level athleticims, 6'5 point guards do not grow on trees. He has a rare blend of talent, lets see if he can show why we drafted him. Youngest player in the league next year.

Way to take my idea with redrafting and run with it! We do have 4 core players with lottery talent under 25. Reasons to be optimistic.


Once the guy is on a big contract (Timmy), it doesn't really matter where he would have been drafted IMO. Melo would have been drafted in the lottery too! Ntilikina hasn't played yet. KP and Willy are legit lottery players on rookie contracts.
Is Timmy's contract big? He's getting 18% of the cap. He's the 14th highest paid at his position. Timmy is basically being paid like a starter.

The knocks on the Hardway contract are pure emotion. If we had kept him the whole time and he followed the same trajectory he had at Atl think about it... last year guy goes to Dleague. Comes in this year really locked in. We trade the player in front of him (Korver) and he goes on to have the best 2nd half on the team and be neck in neck with the guy who's got the best +/- on the team (only Milsap and THjr were +). Oh.. and that translated to a playoff berth. Now Timmy's a FA, and the Nets come in and offer him $72mm over 4 years. Yea it sucks, but you dont balk and you keep your 25 year old shooting guard who is coming off a breakout season. You retain the talent first and foremost. You think Knick fans would want Timmy gone for that money? We would feel good about resigning "our guy" especially after his last season. But its the Knicks spending money so it must be stupid... (which is fair to be honest)

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
7/11/2017  8:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/11/2017  8:23 AM
fishmike wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:You look at Sixers, Suns, Lakers, Kings, Magic. These teams are in the lottery every of the last few years, tanking as much as they can in most cases. The Knicks on the other hand were royally screwed with the pre-Phil Jackson era of poor trades with sending out draft picks. We lost two draft picks in the process of these last 4 drafts. Yet, here we are stacking up pretty ok against these complete tank projects.

Lets define real lottery level talent. Players who in a re-draft would still go in the lottery, top 10 to be more precise. Players that are first or second all rookie team caliber for their draft class.

Re-draft 2013-14 class

Giannis
Gobert
CJ
Porter
Shroedor
Oladipo
Noel
Hardaway

We have 8th best player (arguably).

Re-draft 2015-16 class

Towns
Jokic
Porzingis
Booker
Turner
Russell

We have the third best player from this draft class.

Re-draft the 2016-17 class

Embiid
Brongdon
Ingram
Brown
Hield
Saric
Dunn
Hernangomez
Murray

Willy's about in the 8-10 range for this class

Now for this most recent draft lets add Simmons, since he is coming over as a rookie now. A little early to judge, so lets go by draft order plus adding Simmons

Simmons
Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox
Isaac
Lauri
Smith (lets assume Dennis has proven he deserved to be drafted higher even though it's waaay early)
Ntilikina

So where we stand

Porzingis - 3rd best player of his class
Hardaway - 8th best player of his class
Willy - 8th best player of his class
Ntilikina - 10th pick type of projection

Like I said quietly, despite not having lost two draft picks in 4 years, we have been able to stock up on young talent that would be ranked very well amongst the draft class they entered the league with. I would argue for value, Porzingis (our best player) would only be second to Towns on the trade front. Say what you want about the dysfunction, the poor job Phil/Mills or whomever does, we have quietly put together 4 pieces that would make a good foundation for a re-build. Doesn't mean you win championships with these players in a year or two, but this is what re-building is all about.

Knicks need to be patient and keep drafting well. Lets see how Frank plays. I hope he shows why we picked him at 8. 7 foot wingspan, NBA level athleticims, 6'5 point guards do not grow on trees. He has a rare blend of talent, lets see if he can show why we drafted him. Youngest player in the league next year.

Way to take my idea with redrafting and run with it! We do have 4 core players with lottery talent under 25. Reasons to be optimistic.


Once the guy is on a big contract (Timmy), it doesn't really matter where he would have been drafted IMO. Melo would have been drafted in the lottery too! Ntilikina hasn't played yet. KP and Willy are legit lottery players on rookie contracts.
Is Timmy's contract big? He's getting 18% of the cap. He's the 14th highest paid at his position. Timmy is basically being paid like a starter.

The knocks on the Hardway contract are pure emotion. If we had kept him the whole time and he followed the same trajectory he had at Atl think about it... last year guy goes to Dleague. Comes in this year really locked in. We trade the player in front of him (Korver) and he goes on to have the best 2nd half on the team and be neck in neck with the guy who's got the best +/- on the team (only Milsap and THjr were +). Oh.. and that translated to a playoff berth. Now Timmy's a FA, and the Nets come in and offer him $72mm over 4 years. Yea it sucks, but you dont balk and you keep your 25 year old shooting guard who is coming off a breakout season. You retain the talent first and foremost. You think Knick fans would want Timmy gone for that money? We would feel good about resigning "our guy" especially after his last season. But its the Knicks spending money so it must be stupid... (which is fair to be honest)


It's huge compared to a rookie contract. That's why I can't think of him as a lottery pick, and no team would trade a pick without lottery protection for him now. So he isn't equivalent to a lottery pick. You could say that Marbury, Francis, and maybe some of the other guys Isiah acquired would have been picked in the lottery when they were acquired. That's not really meaningful once they're past their rookie contracts. No, Timmy's contract isn't huge in terms of today's market for FAs who completed their rookie contracts but that's a separate discussion.
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

7/11/2017  8:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/11/2017  8:32 AM
fishmike wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:You look at Sixers, Suns, Lakers, Kings, Magic. These teams are in the lottery every of the last few years, tanking as much as they can in most cases. The Knicks on the other hand were royally screwed with the pre-Phil Jackson era of poor trades with sending out draft picks. We lost two draft picks in the process of these last 4 drafts. Yet, here we are stacking up pretty ok against these complete tank projects.

Lets define real lottery level talent. Players who in a re-draft would still go in the lottery, top 10 to be more precise. Players that are first or second all rookie team caliber for their draft class.

Re-draft 2013-14 class

Giannis
Gobert
CJ
Porter
Shroedor
Oladipo
Noel
Hardaway

We have 8th best player (arguably).

Re-draft 2015-16 class

Towns
Jokic
Porzingis
Booker
Turner
Russell

We have the third best player from this draft class.

Re-draft the 2016-17 class

Embiid
Brongdon
Ingram
Brown
Hield
Saric
Dunn
Hernangomez
Murray

Willy's about in the 8-10 range for this class

Now for this most recent draft lets add Simmons, since he is coming over as a rookie now. A little early to judge, so lets go by draft order plus adding Simmons

Simmons
Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox
Isaac
Lauri
Smith (lets assume Dennis has proven he deserved to be drafted higher even though it's waaay early)
Ntilikina

So where we stand

Porzingis - 3rd best player of his class
Hardaway - 8th best player of his class
Willy - 8th best player of his class
Ntilikina - 10th pick type of projection

Like I said quietly, despite not having lost two draft picks in 4 years, we have been able to stock up on young talent that would be ranked very well amongst the draft class they entered the league with. I would argue for value, Porzingis (our best player) would only be second to Towns on the trade front. Say what you want about the dysfunction, the poor job Phil/Mills or whomever does, we have quietly put together 4 pieces that would make a good foundation for a re-build. Doesn't mean you win championships with these players in a year or two, but this is what re-building is all about.

Knicks need to be patient and keep drafting well. Lets see how Frank plays. I hope he shows why we picked him at 8. 7 foot wingspan, NBA level athleticims, 6'5 point guards do not grow on trees. He has a rare blend of talent, lets see if he can show why we drafted him. Youngest player in the league next year.

Way to take my idea with redrafting and run with it! We do have 4 core players with lottery talent under 25. Reasons to be optimistic.


Once the guy is on a big contract (Timmy), it doesn't really matter where he would have been drafted IMO. Melo would have been drafted in the lottery too! Ntilikina hasn't played yet. KP and Willy are legit lottery players on rookie contracts.
Is Timmy's contract big? He's getting 18% of the cap. He's the 14th highest paid at his position. Timmy is basically being paid like a starter.

The knocks on the Hardway contract are pure emotion. If we had kept him the whole time and he followed the same trajectory he had at Atl think about it... last year guy goes to Dleague. Comes in this year really locked in. We trade the player in front of him (Korver) and he goes on to have the best 2nd half on the team and be neck in neck with the guy who's got the best +/- on the team (only Milsap and THjr were +). Oh.. and that translated to a playoff berth. Now Timmy's a FA, and the Nets come in and offer him $72mm over 4 years. Yea it sucks, but you dont balk and you keep your 25 year old shooting guard who is coming off a breakout season. You retain the talent first and foremost. You think Knick fans would want Timmy gone for that money? We would feel good about resigning "our guy" especially after his last season. But its the Knicks spending money so it must be stupid... (which is fair to be honest)

let me just start out by saying that I liked Timmy when he was here. In fact I defended him when many wanted him out the door. However this contract is definetly too big for what he has done so far. that doesn't mean he wont keep improving but for what he has done it is too much. Timmy was here for two years and we can all agree he was inconsistent with no defense whatsoever. So when he was traded I actually thought a change of scenery might be good for him. Obviously his first year with the hawks was more of the same and he was sent to the d-league. This year was obviously his best year BUT it wasn't a dramatic jump. yes he averaged about 14.5 points per game and other parts of his game were better but it didn't warrant 71 million. IMO we probably could have signed timmy for 15 million less without the hawks matching.
Nalod
Posts: 71546
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
7/11/2017  8:31 AM
Timmy paid at #14. In two years he will move down that list.
We assume he is untraceable because he won't play up to the contract.
Jr. Makes 15mil a year. There starts at 16mil. JR is proven talent and a proven Clown.
Butler, Klay and a gaggle of others will get big raises.
When we won 37 games is when we tore it down. KP, Willy, Frank are the future (for now) We have had two first round picks in 4 years.
Nets dug a big hole and I applaud what they are doing. Its smart, but we DON"T FEEL THEIR PAIN so its easy to say "good job rebuilding!!" How many years are they now into this? We are three years in and we are freaking out yet we did everything right except get very lucky and we signed Noah.
WE can even say we moved on from Phil. We have all our first round picks and we have assets for on court or as trade fodder. All things we were very behind on.
As for hindsight, we all have that.
Quietly Knicks have put together a lottery tanking type of young core without actually tanking

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