Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

I know its hard to keep up with all the moves at times, but no this is not Mills first time. He was named the GM after Walsh left. His two signature moves were signing JR Smith's talentless brother to an NBA contract as a negotiating ploy to get him to re-up.

His other brilliant move was not sitting Shumpert after agreeing to trade him to the Suns, which is GM 101. Shump got hurt, the deal was off.

Hard for me to even hear the expression "first chance" in reference to Mills and the Knicks. Since 1999 Bonn.

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

I know its hard to keep up with all the moves at times, but no this is not Mills first time. He was named the GM after Walsh left. His two signature moves were signing JR Smith's talentless brother to an NBA contract as a negotiating ploy to get him to re-up.

His other brilliant move was not sitting Shumpert after agreeing to trade him to the Suns, which is GM 101. Shump got hurt, the deal was off.

Hard for me to even hear the expression "first chance" in reference to Mills and the Knicks. Since 1999 Bonn.

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

I know its hard to keep up with all the moves at times, but no this is not Mills first time. He was named the GM after Walsh left. His two signature moves were signing JR Smith's talentless brother to an NBA contract as a negotiating ploy to get him to re-up.

His other brilliant move was not sitting Shumpert after agreeing to trade him to the Suns, which is GM 101. Shump got hurt, the deal was off.

Hard for me to even hear the expression "first chance" in reference to Mills and the Knicks. Since 1999 Bonn.

Kind of like Joe Biden ran the country the last 8 years? When you're working for someone who works for the boss, you're not running the show.

You're kidding right? You say he's never been the GM. I tell you he was the GM, and what he had done as GM, and you're bringing up Joe Biden?

Is this how it works? Nothing Mills has done (or not done) as an executive in almost 20 years with the Knicks, sticks?

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

I know its hard to keep up with all the moves at times, but no this is not Mills first time. He was named the GM after Walsh left. His two signature moves were signing JR Smith's talentless brother to an NBA contract as a negotiating ploy to get him to re-up.

His other brilliant move was not sitting Shumpert after agreeing to trade him to the Suns, which is GM 101. Shump got hurt, the deal was off.

Hard for me to even hear the expression "first chance" in reference to Mills and the Knicks. Since 1999 Bonn.

Kind of like Joe Biden ran the country the last 8 years? When you're working for someone who works for the boss, you're not running the show.

You're kidding right? You say he's never been the GM. I tell you he was the GM, and what he had done as GM, and you're bringing up Joe Biden?

Is this how it works? Nothing Mills has done (or not done) as an executive in almost 20 years with the Knicks, sticks?

When did I say he was never the GM? The GM works for the president who works for the owner. The GM is actually further removed from power than the VP - that's the biggest difference. I'm sure the role he played was greater than zero but he definitely never had a chance to run an NBA team.

Mills was the president during that time as well, and worked for an owner with a very short memory. Mills was hired as Grunwald stepped down.

As far as the GM traditionally not having much power, Im sure there are lots of GMs out there who would disagree. Some have made it to the HOF for their work as General Managers. The situation with Phil calling the shots was not typical. Neither is an exec like Mills surviving this long with a team in spite of his track record.

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

I know its hard to keep up with all the moves at times, but no this is not Mills first time. He was named the GM after Walsh left. His two signature moves were signing JR Smith's talentless brother to an NBA contract as a negotiating ploy to get him to re-up.

His other brilliant move was not sitting Shumpert after agreeing to trade him to the Suns, which is GM 101. Shump got hurt, the deal was off.

Hard for me to even hear the expression "first chance" in reference to Mills and the Knicks. Since 1999 Bonn.

Kind of like Joe Biden ran the country the last 8 years? When you're working for someone who works for the boss, you're not running the show.

You're kidding right? You say he's never been the GM. I tell you he was the GM, and what he had done as GM, and you're bringing up Joe Biden?

Is this how it works? Nothing Mills has done (or not done) as an executive in almost 20 years with the Knicks, sticks?

When did I say he was never the GM? The GM works for the president who works for the owner. The GM is actually further removed from power than the VP - that's the biggest difference. I'm sure the role he played was greater than zero but he definitely never had a chance to run an NBA team.

Mills was the president during that time as well, and worked for an owner with a very short memory. Mills was hired as Grunwald stepped down.

As far as the GM traditionally not having much power, Im sure there are lots of GMs out there who would disagree. Some have made it to the HOF for their work as General Managers. The situation with Phil was calling the shots was not typical. Neither is an exec like Mills surviving this long with a team in spite of his track record.

The way the Knicks set it up as far as I know, Mills was working for Phil Jackson but the exact responsibilities of presidents and GMs vary from organization to organization and within organizations at different points in time. This person appears to have a good understanding here though is prediction of Jackson picking a GM was wrong. I'm not aware of Mills ever being the final decision-maker before Dolan.
https://www.quora.com/Phil-Jackson-NBA-Coach-What-does-a-team-president-actually-do
(I also after you quoted me added more about Mills' philosophy compared to the people he worked for.)

I understand that Mills was not calling the shots when Phil was here, said that early on. Mills was hired 5-6 months before Phil took the job. In that time he was president and GM. I believe he should be held accountable for what decisions were made in that time. I believe he's had more than enough opportunities to prove himself with the Knicks. Maybe more than any exec in professional sports, who isnt related to the owner.

smackeddog wrote:Maybe we need a power shift back to coach. Back in the day all the power was with our coach, but since IT and the revolving door of coaches, we seem to have focused on the GM being all powerful. I'll put up with Mills and Houston as GM if we have a strong coach. Fire Hornacek and get JVG as coach- KP and Tim Jr are at a fork in the road, if we don't have a coach that emphasises defense, they will likely be set as poor defenders for much of their careers.

JVG was one of my favorite all time Knick coaches, but he didn't do much with Houston, in spite of having a good team. Would love to have him back as the defensive coordinator though. He's getting his feet wet again with Team USA, would love JVG back as an asst. for his next step. Hornacek on offense, JVG on D would be nice. Not holding my breath though.

GustavBahler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Maybe we need a power shift back to coach. Back in the day all the power was with our coach, but since IT and the revolving door of coaches, we seem to have focused on the GM being all powerful. I'll put up with Mills and Houston as GM if we have a strong coach. Fire Hornacek and get JVG as coach- KP and Tim Jr are at a fork in the road, if we don't have a coach that emphasises defense, they will likely be set as poor defenders for much of their careers.

JVG was one of my favorite all time Knick coaches, but he didn't do much with Houston, in spite of having a good team. Would love to have him back as the defensive coordinator though. He's getting his feet wet again with Team USA, would love JVG back as an asst. for his next step. Hornacek on offense, JVG on D would be nice. Not holding my breath though.

To be fair his 2 main stars were Yao and T-Mac, both of which were frequently out with long term injuries. It really annoys me we missed out on last years coaches- Thibs would have been perfect

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

I know its hard to keep up with all the moves at times, but no this is not Mills first time. He was named the GM after Walsh left. His two signature moves were signing JR Smith's talentless brother to an NBA contract as a negotiating ploy to get him to re-up.

His other brilliant move was not sitting Shumpert after agreeing to trade him to the Suns, which is GM 101. Shump got hurt, the deal was off.

Hard for me to even hear the expression "first chance" in reference to Mills and the Knicks. Since 1999 Bonn.

Kind of like Joe Biden ran the country the last 8 years? When you're working for someone who works for the boss, you're not running the show.

You're kidding right? You say he's never been the GM. I tell you he was the GM, and what he had done as GM, and you're bringing up Joe Biden?

Is this how it works? Nothing Mills has done (or not done) as an executive in almost 20 years with the Knicks, sticks?

When did I say he was never the GM? The GM works for the president who works for the owner. The GM is actually further removed from power than the VP - that's the biggest difference. I'm sure the role he played was greater than zero but he definitely never had a chance to run an NBA team.

Mills was the president during that time as well, and worked for an owner with a very short memory. Mills was hired as Grunwald stepped down.

As far as the GM traditionally not having much power, Im sure there are lots of GMs out there who would disagree. Some have made it to the HOF for their work as General Managers. The situation with Phil was calling the shots was not typical. Neither is an exec like Mills surviving this long with a team in spite of his track record.

The way the Knicks set it up as far as I know, Mills was working for Phil Jackson but the exact responsibilities of presidents and GMs vary from organization to organization and within organizations at different points in time. This person appears to have a good understanding here though is prediction of Jackson picking a GM was wrong. I'm not aware of Mills ever being the final decision-maker before Dolan.
https://www.quora.com/Phil-Jackson-NBA-Coach-What-does-a-team-president-actually-do
(I also after you quoted me added more about Mills' philosophy compared to the people he worked for.)

I understand that Mills was not calling the shots when Phil was here, said that early on. Mills was hired 5-6 months before Phil took the job. In that time he was president and GM. I believe he should be held accountable for what decisions were made in that time. I believe he's had more than enough opportunities to prove himself with the Knicks. Maybe more than any exec in professional sports, who isnt related to the owner.

Based on a 5 month stint? Or based on a long time period of being 3rd in power? Either way, I'd say that's ridiculous, although for different reasons (which I've covered above).

5 month stint where he couldn't avoid fing up the NBA equivalent of making a ham sandwich. Making sure the player you just traded doesn't get hurt playing before leaving the team. Signing a player who had no business being in the league.

Mills was the one who suggested Isiah to Dolan, and all the misery that followed. He has played both a major and a minor role in some of the worst decisions in franchise history, yet you honestly believe that he had no role in any of it. Helping enable some of the worst front office behavior (sexual harrassment) the league had ever seen.

Not sure what this man has to do to get something to stick to him. Almost 20 years as an executive with the Knicks and you believe that they're just taking off his training wheels..now? C'mon Bonn!

If Mills was not doing that, then what did he do? Just picks up the phone and calls Phil to come? Phil was not the number guy. He was not one knowing inside out of everything about contracts, years, options and deadlines.

The details, it is all Mills' job.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No argument with that. Phil was the boss. He had the final say. He took the full responsibility. He should have said no to that 72mil contract, but at the same time, Mills should have provided him a better one to sign on.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

Right but officially the president makes the decisions and the owner signs off on them. As GM, Mills job is just to assist the president. The default assumption would be the president was making the deals unless proven otherwise.

The GM provides the contracts? What does that mean? I don't think GMs are as powerful as you're saying.

mlby1215 wrote:I meant why is 72mil not 69? why is it 4 year not 3 years + 1 year player option? He talked to the agent, and finalized the details, then asked Phil to sign it.

If Mills was not doing that, then what did he do? Just picks up the phone and calls Phil to come? Phil was not the number guy. He was not one knowing inside out of everything about contracts, years, options and deadlines.

The details, it is all Mills' job.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No argument with that. Phil was the boss. He had the final say. He took the full responsibility. He should have said no to that 72mil contract, but at the same time, Mills should have provided him a better one to sign on.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

Right but officially the president makes the decisions and the owner signs off on them. As GM, Mills job is just to assist the president. The default assumption would be the president was making the deals unless proven otherwise.

The GM provides the contracts? What does that mean? I don't think GMs are as powerful as you're saying.

People complain about THJ but really when you dig deeper it was a very smart move. THJ is an emerging Top 15 SG in the NBA. Here in NY he'll have a role suited to his best skills. The contract is not outsized for a player of his position and level. Just more BS to fit the Media Narrative.

Mills was also part of the process that has this roster with a lot of quality young talent to build on. As of right now the roster looks like this.

POS	        STARTER	            2ND	            3RD	
Point Guard	Frank Ntilikina	    Ron Baker	    Chasson Randle	
Shooting Guard	Tim Hardaway Jr.    Courtney Lee    Damyean Dotson		
Small Forward	Carmelo Anthony	    Lance Thomas    Mindaugas Kuzminskas		
Power Forward	Kristaps Porzingis  Kyle O'Quinn				
Center	        Willy Hernangomez   Joakim Noah		

Depending on what happens with the Melo Trade this will of course change but the youth will likely increase. Mills was part of the decision making that made this possible. This is the most hopeful roster we've had in 17 years!!!