Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

Think its Mills. Mills has been more of an influence than anyone thinks. He has Dolan's ear and may be the real reason Jackson is gone. (Not that I thought Jaackson was putting in the needed effor and was the right person for the job). He has been the only constant in the last 3 years of flip flopping on team direction. Other than Dolan. Mills only goal is to be the head of any organazation and get his golden parachute. It's Mill attempt to show Knick fans (Bad idea) that there is someone at the helm. (Titanic? Problem for me, is Timmy any better or a better bargain than Holiday? Or a bigger need filled than a guy like George hill for the same money? How can Mills justify the signing when he was a part of the front office that traded him for Grant two years ago but now think he is worth $18M and 4 years. And did we not just pass on Dennis Smith Jr.? A better younger version with amazing upside.

Do agree that they are thinking about KP and what may happen in two years. But they just proved that if they dont get the right front office guy making the decisions, KP's future will be quickly be pointing to his exit.

Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

To be honest, I don't think KP has shown anything that says we should let him dictate terms, but it may still be happening, because we ARE the Knicks.

reub wrote:Repost from another thread:

We acquire 25 yr old Timmay. Then we trade 32 yr old Lee for Okafor or for a good young point guard. Then we trade Melo and get back Hartenstein, Harkless, Leonard and a #1. We just got much younger and have a core of about 8 guys who are good to great and under age 25 and we have extra draft picks going forward. Done!

Problem with most fans. Deny the reality and state their pipe dreams as fact.

C- Willy , Noah, Leonard, Okafor (for Lee)
PF- KP, Oquinn, Hartenstein
SF- Harkless, Thomas, Kuz
SG- THJ, Baker, Dotson
Pg- Frank, Rondo

16- Kornet
17 Randle or Buycks

All our #1s plus an extra from Portland from the Melo deal

BRIGGS wrote:

reub wrote:This could be our team:

C- Willy , Noah, Leonard, Okafor (for Lee)
PF- KP, Oquinn, Hartenstein
SF- Harkless, Thomas, Kuz
SG- THJ, Baker, Dotson
Pg- Frank, Rondo

16- Kornet
17 Randle or Buycks

All our #1s plus an extra from Portland from the Melo deal

You really think we can get ok4 for Lee? They just paid Reddick 23mm and the salaries are far apart? I wonder if they stretch provision Noah here.

Well I know that Philly supposedly discussed that deal 4 days ago and that was after they had already signed Redick.
http://knicks.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Knicks-76ers-have-discussed-Jahlil-Okafor-trade--53424576

BRIGGS wrote:

reub wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

reub wrote:This could be our team:

C- Willy , Noah, Leonard, Okafor (for Lee)
PF- KP, Oquinn, Hartenstein
SF- Harkless, Thomas, Kuz
SG- THJ, Baker, Dotson
Pg- Frank, Rondo

16- Kornet
17 Randle or Buycks

All our #1s plus an extra from Portland from the Melo deal

You really think we can get ok4 for Lee? They just paid Reddick 23mm and the salaries are far apart? I wonder if they stretch provision Noah here.

Well I know that Philly supposedly discussed that deal 4 days ago and that was after they had already signed Redick.
http://knicks.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Knicks-76ers-have-discussed-Jahlil-Okafor-trade--53424576

Wow I did not see this--I am highly interested in this. I still am a believer in Ok4 and hes PERFECT as a third guy with KP and Willy. Please get this done Knicks--I dont ask much:) Wed have a dominant front-court in the NBA.

Briggs I'm hoping right long with you. All this will take is for the Melo deal to go through as has been rumored and for the Philly rumor to be true. Do you think that this team has dynasty potential like I do? 10 out of the 15 men on this roster are 25 or younger.

BRIGGS wrote:

reub wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

reub wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

reub wrote:This could be our team:

C- Willy , Noah, Leonard, Okafor (for Lee)
PF- KP, Oquinn, Hartenstein
SF- Harkless, Thomas, Kuz
SG- THJ, Baker, Dotson
Pg- Frank, Rondo

16- Kornet
17 Randle or Buycks

All our #1s plus an extra from Portland from the Melo deal

You really think we can get ok4 for Lee? They just paid Reddick 23mm and the salaries are far apart? I wonder if they stretch provision Noah here.

Well I know that Philly supposedly discussed that deal 4 days ago and that was after they had already signed Redick.
http://knicks.247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Knicks-76ers-have-discussed-Jahlil-Okafor-trade--53424576

Wow I did not see this--I am highly interested in this. I still am a believer in Ok4 and hes PERFECT as a third guy with KP and Willy. Please get this done Knicks--I dont ask much:) Wed have a dominant front-court in the NBA.

Briggs I'm hoping right long with you. All this will take is for the Melo deal to go through as has been rumored and for the Philly rumor to be true. Do you think that this team has dynasty potential like I do? 10 out of the 15 men on this roster are 25 or younger.

You need a guard who can control play and shoot 43-45% on 3's. This opens up everything--dont want Rondo. Frank N way way wya to young. Maybe next draft

How many years have we been waiting for that guard now? Lol!

Andrew wrote:This is my opinion on what is happening with the Knicks, and to me its all about KP and what he wants and not so much about Melo. If KP was happy with the direction under Phil, I think Phil would still be here, but that relationship seemed at an impasse and so Phil had to go. KP seems like he wants to be more of the focal point, and that is OK...the Knicks should probably move in that direction. I think JP also wants to be on a team that wins....and that is why he was upset with the Melo situation. Put pieces in place where he can see a chance to win over the next 2 years and he stays. Tear it down completely and suck for 2 years and I think he leaves.

Knicks are going to have to balance the youth movement with at least a decent amount of wins, or at least convince KP that he the organization is heading in the right direction.

Thoughts?

In 2 years who are the super teams? My crystal ball says GSW (duh); probably SAS (because...); and then unclear

Clevland -- they'll fall apart by then and Lebron will be 2 years older with crazy wear and tear
Houston -- if they ever becaome one CP3 and Melo will be 2 years older???

Boston -- maybe depends on a lot of things

Point being where will KP want to go -- there is no obvious choice

I think the most important thing for KP is some form of plan that makes sense and has stability and seems a rationale path to success. I think he'll put up with loses if he sees a bigger picture that makes sense and with promise. I think he flipped out with all the change. I also think he felt Phil's ego got to be too much. As I mentioned months back, Phils criticism of Melo being sticky etc could all be true but it was equally true for Rose -- who if anyone should be less sticky as a pg. Yet Phil went public with Melo and did nearly nothing with Rose.

So I think you're right that we're catering to KP. I don't think we need to be win-now, but we do need a plan and more stability. There are a lot of borderline OCD types that would flip out with all that change. WHo knows maybe KP is one of them

Why would he say no? It is not about his father and it is not about him. Knicks targeted every single FA and they said no. They believe THj is the best player they still have a chance.

Rookie wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Rookie wrote:The Knicks have used the resources that they have - draft picks/un drafted FA's/cap space - and haven't given away any assets.

They have a direction - get younger/improve the team/build a core for the future.

To me, we have a plan and a direction and we are sticking to it.

We still have a few moves to make - move Lee/move Melo - but if neither are moved, does it really hurt the team?

Noah's contract is un movable, but he could prove to be a good veteran leader for our youth movement.

O'Quinn is still young and on a good contract, I don't see a need to move him, he fits right in with the direction we are headed in

Thomas fills the roll of a good veteran leader on a good contract.

Everything I see that we have done this season leads me to believe that we have a direction and a plan and we are implementing that plan.

Also, agree the above is a factor. We are rebuilding, not tanking. I think a lot were expecting the tank and are being critical of the rebuild.

Well said.

Ha! I have my moments

One last thought. THJ didn't seem to be on anybody's radar until his dad showed up at a SL game (the last game vs Miami?) and said his son would be open to returning to the Knicks. The Knicks reacted immediately and got THJ signed to an offer sheet. To me, that is good management. You see an opportunity and react to it. Before that, I didn't see any reports of a FA or RFA saying they would be open to joining the Knicks. The reports were more like, "the Knicks have been in contact with..."

Second, we didn't have suitable GM waiting before we fired him. We should realize Steve Mills is not the best GM we can hope for. If we fired Phil no matter what, why wouldn't we first find a new GM secretly?

Firing Phil is a wrong move. I don't even talk about him, I talk about the timing and how firing should be handled in general.

nyknickzingis wrote:I think they are simply trying to add young talent at positions they need it at.

Starting talent (or better)
5 Hernangomez
4 Porzingis
3 ?????
2 ???? (Dotson could be a backup this year, but starting 2 guard on a good team is unlikely and far from a given)
1 Ntilikina

Hardaway fits the young talent mode at 2/3. Wing help. It's what Phil was saying as well about the focus this summer.

I don't think this has anything to do with KP. Or Phil leaving. Phil had to go because of the drama. That simple, IMO. Melo was not going to play ball on a trade unless Phil was out of the picture. Too much of a pissing contest. KP's camp and Phil were about to start something with Phil publicly questioning whether he could carry a team and that he could be traded. Dolan IMO had fear. He saw what went down with Melo (Who I think Dolan is ok with leaving) eventually happen with his prized asset KP and put a stop to it.

I was a big believer in what Phil was trying to get done. I am happy we are still doing that. To me it just comes down to adding talent. Before we reached a deal with THj, we were trying to get Waiters on a 4 year deal. I don't know what our max offer was to Waiters, and whether we outbid Miami. However it seems our primary target was Waiters before it was THj.

About Hardaway or Waiters. They are both pretty young. Both proven starting 2 guards on playoff level teams based on last season. Neither is an all-star, but they fit what the Knicks are looking to do.

All that said, I hope Atlanta matches. I don't feel great about the THj contract. If he plays like last year every single year of the deal, ok. Will that happen? I don't know. I don't want to take the risk. I'll be fine with Atlanta matching. In two years when KP, Ntilikina and Willy are better basketball players, hopefully KP being an all-star and we're a team on the way up, we'll be able to sign better free agents than Hardaway, actual all-star level players for the kind of money we are giving Timmy.

newyorknewyork wrote:Don't like the deal but it is what it is.

If we can land a starting SF 24 years old or younger then we could have our starting lineup set for the next 6 years. Frank and Hardaway jr actually compliment each other in the back court though Hardaway still needs to continue to improve his all around game. That is a lot of time to try and build something as the players grow together. The problem is I don't trust that the Knicks will be able to build something. They will probably think they are one piece away and trade Noah with 2 future unprotected picks thinking its all they need to get over the hump.

Lee & Lance both need to be dumped for cap space.

Absent a good deal I would keep Lee and lance. They're both good eggs and will show the youngster how to be pros and grown ups

Hopefully lance is healthy and Lee gets more aggressive.

Having said that, if the right deal comes along...