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Playing Devil's Advocate with THJ Offer Sheet
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Vmart
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7/7/2017  9:35 AM
There is no norm in salary cap it went out the window when Lowery got 33+ million per year. THJ at 17+ looks like a bargain.
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Andrew
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7/7/2017  9:42 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Not sure if THJ has been "trending up" long enough to earn that deal.

It's definatly a risk.

GustavBahler wrote:Not so sure they should give a 4 year deal to someone who couldn't handle playing in NY his last time here.

Huh? What do you mean? 2 seasons (rookie and 2nd year) and he did fine. Seemed to handle it well.

GustavBahler wrote:Its not like Hardaway is coming back to a different situation.

The Knicks are different. No Phil, different coach, KP, Willy.....what is the same from when he left? Melo?

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BigDaddyG
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7/7/2017  9:44 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:If the Knicks really are going to hire another GM, it would have been smarter IMO to let his successor build the team being left with no additional contracts beyond 2 years. Id like to know if Mills is the temporary or the permanent GM? Dont believe thats really clear at this point. This might be yet another tryout for Mills.

Hard to trust the judgement of someone who has delivered little, if anything for this franchise, throughout many years of service.

I guess we're going to find out just how much THJ's game has changed, and if he learned any lessons from his last time in NY. I hope it works out.

By the time the Knicks hire a new GM, the market will be dried up...Not mad at this signing at all. Young player who fits in with the rebuild theme and is trending up. I watched him a ton this past season his confidence level is through the roof...With the minutes, he'll average close to 18 per for us...He took over games down the stretch for the Hawks and at times, was their best player.

Would not have bothered me if it did dry up. Not sure if THJ has been "trending up" long enough to earn that deal. Not so sure they should give a 4 year deal to someone who couldn't handle playing in NY his last time here. Its not like Hardaway is coming back to a different situation.


I would be more excited about this deal if Hardaway could play spot minutes at lead guard. How cheap will Rondo be?
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
GustavBahler
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7/7/2017  9:56 AM
Andrew wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Not sure if THJ has been "trending up" long enough to earn that deal.

It's definatly a risk.

GustavBahler wrote:Not so sure they should give a 4 year deal to someone who couldn't handle playing in NY his last time here.

Huh? What do you mean? 2 seasons (rookie and 2nd year) and he did fine. Seemed to handle it well.

GustavBahler wrote:Its not like Hardaway is coming back to a different situation.

The Knicks are different. No Phil, different coach, KP, Willy.....what is the same from when he left? Melo?

Disagree that THJ did fine his second year, its what got him traded. Wouldn't take it to the rim or play D. Mills as GM is not the definition of change. I dont see this deal as the definition of change, looks very familiar.

GoNyGoNyGo
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7/7/2017  10:11 AM
SocraticBallin22 wrote:I know the consensus is that it's an insane amount of money and commitment for THJ--and I may agree--but please allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a second and make the Case for the THJ Offer Sheet:

1) Following the Korver trade last year, THJ averaged 18 ppg on 47% shooting from the field and 38% shooting from 3 (elite SG numbers across the board). By giving him this offer sheet, the assumption is that he can produce like this for the 4 year term of the contract. If so, this price becomes more than reasonable.

To put it another way, if I told you Player 'A' (forget the name right now) who is 25 years old will average 18 - 20 ppg on 47% shooting and 37% from 3, would you offer him a 4 year, 71 million contract? Your answer would be: yes...that would be a bargain for those statistics and a player that age entering his prime. The question remains: can he consistently produce like this or was it a fluke?

2) In the playoffs, he was one of the leading scorers on the Hawks and impressed outplaying Bazemore, who has a similar deal to what we just offered THJ and was invisible in the playoffs. He showed he can step up and play under pressure and be a lead guy. Not every player can do this. He has this in his genes from his father, who was a clutch player and played better under pressure. You don't think it's valuable to have a player like this on your team?

3) Regardless of the amount, he fits the timeline of the rebuild with our young core. He's 25, so you add him along to the core of KP, Frank, Willy, Baker and Dotson (all under 25).

4) Say what you want about him, but he worked on his game like a dog and had a breakout campaign last year that came out of nowhere. You have to respect a player like that. Being delegated to the D League I'm sure humbled him. And instead of sulking, he worked on his game and vastly improved. The Hawks GM is on record saying he would match any offer for him, although granted he never expected this type of amount. But they value him and wanted to keep him. They see him as part of their rebuild.

5) This is not the THJ we remembered. He got sent down to the D league to work on his defense. And he did and improved. He's a much better all around player who is more of a 2 way player now. He has polished his game.

6) Melo will be traded, and we need another scorer to absorb the loss. That's exactly what THJ is: a flat our scorer

7) If we get THJ, Lee will be moved for a salary dump. He's at 12 mill per, so that will offset THJ. I love Lee; he was my favorite Knick last year, but at 31, does not fit out timeline.

Again, the question is: do you think that THJ's breakout second half and playoff run last year was legit or a fluke? If it's legit, then the contract is not as outrageous as it appears.


Fair assessment.

Yes - of course, it would be better if the money was less. However, if it was less Atlanta would match, so NY obviously wants him back and they made an offer that is hard to match.

Whether this is a good call or not, time will tell. I do think it fits with the plan of building with youth. THJr was here already and he is a young vet who has been through hard times in the NBA. He survived it and thrived at the end of last year. That says something about his character. His dad was a bull dog. Seems like junior has some of that in him.

Lee is getting 12. IF he is moved, you could make the case that it is an upgrade in scoring and age. His D needs to get better and it has a bit. A 20 point scorer is needed when Melo is dumped.

I am cautiously optimistic about this move. Let's see how it plays out.

fishmike
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7/7/2017  10:39 AM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:I know the consensus is that it's an insane amount of money and commitment for THJ--and I may agree--but please allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a second and make the Case for the THJ Offer Sheet:

1) Following the Korver trade last year, THJ averaged 18 ppg on 47% shooting from the field and 38% shooting from 3 (elite SG numbers across the board). By giving him this offer sheet, the assumption is that he can produce like this for the 4 year term of the contract. If so, this price becomes more than reasonable.

To put it another way, if I told you Player 'A' (forget the name right now) who is 25 years old will average 18 - 20 ppg on 47% shooting and 37% from 3, would you offer him a 4 year, 71 million contract? Your answer would be: yes...that would be a bargain for those statistics and a player that age entering his prime. The question remains: can he consistently produce like this or was it a fluke?

2) In the playoffs, he was one of the leading scorers on the Hawks and impressed outplaying Bazemore, who has a similar deal to what we just offered THJ and was invisible in the playoffs. He showed he can step up and play under pressure and be a lead guy. Not every player can do this. He has this in his genes from his father, who was a clutch player and played better under pressure. You don't think it's valuable to have a player like this on your team?

3) Regardless of the amount, he fits the timeline of the rebuild with our young core. He's 25, so you add him along to the core of KP, Frank, Willy, Baker and Dotson (all under 25).

4) Say what you want about him, but he worked on his game like a dog and had a breakout campaign last year that came out of nowhere. You have to respect a player like that. Being delegated to the D League I'm sure humbled him. And instead of sulking, he worked on his game and vastly improved. The Hawks GM is on record saying he would match any offer for him, although granted he never expected this type of amount. But they value him and wanted to keep him. They see him as part of their rebuild.

5) This is not the THJ we remembered. He got sent down to the D league to work on his defense. And he did and improved. He's a much better all around player who is more of a 2 way player now. He has polished his game.

6) Melo will be traded, and we need another scorer to absorb the loss. That's exactly what THJ is: a flat our scorer

7) If we get THJ, Lee will be moved for a salary dump. He's at 12 mill per, so that will offset THJ. I love Lee; he was my favorite Knick last year, but at 31, does not fit out timeline.

Again, the question is: do you think that THJ's breakout second half and playoff run last year was legit or a fluke? If it's legit, then the contract is not as outrageous as it appears.


Fair assessment.

Yes - of course, it would be better if the money was less. However, if it was less Atlanta would match, so NY obviously wants him back and they made an offer that is hard to match.

Whether this is a good call or not, time will tell. I do think it fits with the plan of building with youth. THJr was here already and he is a young vet who has been through hard times in the NBA. He survived it and thrived at the end of last year. That says something about his character. His dad was a bull dog. Seems like junior has some of that in him.

Lee is getting 12. IF he is moved, you could make the case that it is an upgrade in scoring and age. His D needs to get better and it has a bit. A 20 point scorer is needed when Melo is dumped.

I am cautiously optimistic about this move. Let's see how it plays out.

this... Im far from calling it good, but it certainly could be. I mean if the Knicks get a 25 year old SG who's giving you 18ppg, 4 rebs, 3 assists, plays good defense and gels with the other guys fine. If they flip Lee for a pick or prospect even better. Knicks get younger and better at SG and get an asset in the upgrade back. Thats a good job. Plenty can happen the other way also. This can fail for sure.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Playing Devil's Advocate with THJ Offer Sheet

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