CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Phil would have had Rose back and went after Rudy Gay or something to ensure the win now/tank method he had perfected.

If Phil wanted Rose back he would not have drafted Ntilikina.
He wanted Rose back if they couldn't get a point in the draft. He said that a few times.

I think the main reason Phil is gone is the drama that came with him.
The media magnified every move and statement he made.
He got into battles with Melo and KP's camp.
He put BOTH Melo and KP on the trade block (although with KP it was more a feeler than actual desire to trade).

At some point a guy is just not worth the drama he comes with.

He changed a few things in NY.
For one it seems we're going to keep his top advisor Gaines.
Second we're going to value our draft picks and be patient.
Third we're going to invest in the D league and farm system.
Finally, it seems the team is still set on trading Melo and building a fresh team.

Phil did many good things in his time. He made mistakes, but the media and some fans will pretend as if he was the worst GM ever. Far from the case. Phil in 3 years got the Knicks - Porzingis, Ntilikina, Hernangomez - and moving forward from 2018 onward the team should have massive capspace. I don't think there is any reason to have hate for the guy. I certainly hate the job Mills did before Phil got here more than what Phil did in charge when he was here. Phil didn't trade away two lottery picks for Bargnani. Or any move that set back the franchise longterm.

It just got to a point that it became almost all about Phil. Right now the way I see it the team is doing exactly what they would have been with Phil (trying to trade Melo, get younger, look to rebuild, use Gaines as top advisor) only without the drama. No more trashing Knicks every day. Media may still trash the Knicks, but not the same heat they were getting with Phil. Melo seems more cooperative with a trade without Phil and I think KP's camp is happier without Phil as well. If Phil were 60, I could see Dolan say "let him finish out and if it's what he says it would be, go for 2 or 3 more years". However with Phil definitely being out in 2 more years, they decided that they should get this done now before the strained relationships with the media, Melo and KP get even more out of hand.

From Phil's perspective. Man, $60 million for 3 years of work. Got to learn about the front office. He'll probably go back to a consultant role with the Lakers I think. But man, he really robbed Dolan. He got $60 million to just take the heat off Dolan and draft well. That's a ton of money.

I have to agree.

KOQ just said something to the affect that something had to give and he knew a change was coming before it happened. Admittedly, Phil created alot of the media firestorm with his statements. I for one, liked them for their honesty but they were blown way out of proportion by the media. I also beleive they were right. IN any case, the last straw was the KP situation. I'll let Phil take the blame here as KP is the future and he should have not let his ego drive the situation. On the other hand, KP needs to step up on the court before he pulls crap like that again.

Was he overpaid? Yes. Did they win? No. Are they set up for the future? Yes. The fact that they seem to be going forward with the plan makes it clear that the problem was not the plan but the personal disputes with Melo and KP that did Phil in.

Too bad. I would have stayed with Phil. The KP thing could have been repaired once Melo was traded or released.

Now, Melo may negatively influence a young kid again. HOpefully, Mills makes the move we all think is needed.

THat alone would make this a GREAT off season.

People want the Knicks to be transparent. Look at these idiots who want Mills to make a statement. I would be like F' all of you I ain't saying shyt. Honestly If KP did this shyt to me and I was the boss I would kicked KP to the curb ASAP. There is no discipline here and KP set the tone for the entirety of the franchise going forward.

We let a guy with 13 rings and the knowledge of winning go for KP and Melo. These two are on the clock.As much as KP is a talent what bothers me more is that Phil was setting him up to be the main guy on the team by trying to get Melo out of here. KP wanted none of it he totally dropped the ball to make the Knicks his team and sided with Melo.

I already know the next step in Melo's plan should he still be on the Knicks. It's going to be to sabotage Hornacek who wants to implement speed ball. This guy is predictable.

For what it is worth, Isola reported a couple of days ago that Jeff's relationship with KP isn't that good and that it was made worse when Longstaff wasn't retained. I am not sure how guys on the team feel about Jeff/Rambis. I don't expect Melo to be on the team but I do think Jeff is on the hot seat.

How can anyone have a good relationship with KP he doesn't think for himself and he is being lead like a dog on a leash. Melo is in his ear and his brothers are too. I'll go on record here that KP won't make it through his first contract with the Knicks.

As for Hornacek not having a good relationship with KP I can see KP doing a diva act it wouldn't surprise me. As for Isola he is useless now that Phil is gone he has to look for a new angle to create dissension. He now knows what ever KP is gold and he will use KP to create trouble for the Knicks.

I think there was a lot of dysfunction with the Knicks last year. I disagree about KP being a diva and difficult. I also think you are underestimating him if you see him as being lead around by others. You might be right about him not sticking around but if the Knicks create a better culture and start winning he will want to stay.

Yes, I get the feeling KP loves NYC and would stay if the organization gets its act together.

I am not here to tell what it works or it doesn't. I am here to discuss what it really has happened. Phil's way may or may not work, but is it very important to you?

Phil did not win in 70s. He last champion is in 2010-11. You may suggest something could work in 2010 but it would not work in 2014-15, the year of 17-65. Who am I to tell you that you are wrong? It is just that you have to have a very valid reason to convince people how these four years mattered.

Maybe he was always like that but actually GOAT and Shaq and Kobe were a bunch of good soldiers? or you want to suggest this dude suddenly turned into a total different guy when he was 68?

Pippen and Kukoc is probably a good example of who he really is. He did not bend on his superstar but went for his role player. He is always who he is, it is just we (especially you) cannot take it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvph7Z5W_h0

Look at this video. It was Shaq statue's ceremony.

He teased Shaq, one of his most loyal student, was too fat to be Chamberlain. Shaq just smiled and took it. If it was Melo, it would be another ****storm in NY.

And Rambis, here it comes with revisionist history. When fisher was fired, everyone celebrated because he was motionless. He talked as if he was a robot and gave reporters nothing. We were angry about him, and at the time who talked about Rambis's incompetence? We said Rambis was good because he was frank, he was like a fresh air.

We started to get angry on him because he refused to play Jerian Grant more. We assumed he wanted to pat his record so he didn't want to give our young guys a chance. THIS is the sin he really committed on, at least in the eyes of fans. It was not about the days of Twolf. We just didn't like his way of "You have to earn my trust and practice enough before I would start you".

See? It is the old way we don't like. I am not here to say his way is effective, I am here to say we hate him for personal reasons. We like our stars, and everyone not appeasing them is wrong.

Again I said we believe in buddy-buddy not mentor-student, then what you said exactly prove that. You assume Rambis was not qualified because some players disliked him, and it seems it doesn't matter to you that he actually have 4 champions rings? 2 as a player and 2 as a assistant coach? A big man coach who trained with Shaq and Pau Gasol? Phil Jackson even said Rambis has every knowledge he had. He is exactly good enough to a teacher but not a buddy because he is old school.

Btw, I didn't hear players disliked him in LA . Did you notice it is kinda funny? If we want to shi t on him with his record in Twolf, then at the same time we have to look at his accomplishment. New York Knicks as a whole doesn't even have 4 rings. When I said we really don't care about knowledge (champion experience) and traditions (the past), I meant this.

I mean, It is okay to find a new way. But we can't have a cake and eat it. If you think a new way is better, it is okay and you are probably right. But don't pretend we care about knowledge and traditions. We don't.

When you look at what you said, like reportedly Phil was lazy, or reportedly Rambis was crazy, then you should know the NY reporters actually mind-controlled you. We didn't know anything about knicks because Phil didn't leak/talk, and thus Media controlled the narrative. I don't know if Phil was lazy or not. I don't know if he slept or not. Media fed everything to us. I do know he has 13 rings and I assume he knew what he was doing until I saw the fact. What is fact? for example, "the team didn't win" is a fact and I give you that.

And Mills doing every heavy lifting. If he did, why blamed Phil? I didn't hear anyone blaming Noah on Mills. Don't tell me if things are right it is Mills, if things are wrong it is Phil. It was like drafting Willy is Mills but drafting Jerian Grant is Phil. This is illogical.

I tell you what we assume a prez should/should not.

1. Don't coach a player because it is coach job.
2. Don't coach a coach because it is forcing a coach's hand.
3. And sure he would not do what Mills did, because he was the GM.
4. Talk to us regularly.
5. Just agree with everything Gaines Jr said because he is the super scout.
6. Take every single responsibility even though you don't have the right to do anything.

I mean , at this moment I don't know what the job he had to do? Smile? Talk to us everyday like a spokesman? Sean Spicer? So actually he was not the president? He worked for Mills and Horny and were responsible to talk to media? No one realized that they should have talked to GM Mills when Phil didn't talk? Yeah Mills was a puppet until something good happened, then he was the guy in control.

Don't say he was always at the short end of sticks because you should know that guy called Willy and where he came from.

And Pablo Prigioni? Alexey Shved, and two second-round draft picks?

Tim Hardaway Jr? 19th pick? Yeah he drafted wrong but it is 19th pick and you don't like 19th pick?

And Shump, you wanted to resign him for 10mil? or JR smith for 15mil? I don't say Phil is always right because his wrongs were a lot, and thus we don't need to create something which is not true.

Phil is not here not because of anything you said. He is not here because Dolan didn't want him. You thought Dolan would not fire Phil if he was Bob Myers? He fires people as he likes.

And Dolan fired him because he think Phil is unpopular, and one of reason he is unpopular is that he doesn't fit the culture of Knicks fans. I didn't say his way is right. I say it is unfit. We have our way, and our way will lead us to 11 champion rings very soon. Okay?

And KP, very soon he will do another right thing too. Give him two more losing season then we can trade him for something because he refuses to resign. Do you know why sixers lost Noel? Too few wins and too many centers, and it will be exactly what we are.

Phil wanted to trade KP not because it is fun. He said "for the good of this club". It means he had no confidence to resign him. Why? do you realize you should ask why? He talked to Janis, and this is why. We still don't know why KP skipped the exit meeting. Maybe he and his brother wanted some help? They wanted Phil to do something more to get help? Like trading away picks?

I do not say it is what KP wanted to. I say we don't know anything behind the scene. KP is nice but it is useless, because he always listens to his brother Janis and he is not nice.

Can we stop and think about what Phil said actually meant? KP is very talented, and he will be a superstar. You assume he really are afraid of not earning enough if he changes to another team? Even Noel were not afraid of that.

And about not trading picks.

You think not trading pick is easy? There is an old man who refused to trade his pick to get help so he went up to be 80-166. If he traded away all picks and future he probably would be 120-126. He lost his job because the team was bad. The team was bad because it was not talented enough. It was not talented enough because this man didn't give a fck about his record but the future of Knicks.

If I was the GM, I would trade away every pick I could because it would be good for my house, my car, my wife and my career. The next GM would take the hit and it would not my problem because a GM's life is short and I probably would already have a job elsewhere with my buffed record. Do we remember to blame 31-51 record this year on Glen Grunwald? Because he traded away the pick the year before and thus weakened the team. But of course 31-51 would not be on his record.

This is how the game works. This is the business world. If you were the GM, You would do the same because every man cares for himself.

What Phil Jackson has done is not easy, it is hard as fck.

I think I read your every sentence and replied it. Did I miss anything?

Welpee wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:IMO the worst of that he couldn't install a culture successfully. I think he learned it hard way that here people don't believe in "mentor-student" relationship. They'd rather believe in "buddy-buddy" relationship. We really don't believe in knowledge or traditions or cultures. We believe that when a superstar is sub par, it is because he is not motivated enough not because he doesn't know what to do.

In short, it is more about generation gap than anything. We believe in youth, smartness, trends and ideas like young-to-get-rich. Secretly, we really want to be GSW. Young guys, smart guys, etc.

Phil Jackson tried to bring in his older traditions which is closer to spurs. When he tried to teach, we thought it is arrogant. When he tried to discipline, we thought it is ego. We don't believe in what he believe, and this is the main point. Could he have been successful if he was given more time? I am not sure. Pop succeeded because Tim Duncan was always behind him. TD wanted to be treated like others. As a human being, TD is rare, especially as talented as he was. We have KP too, but can he really be the example of his teammates? At least he will never have the right to criticize other new teammates if they skip their exit meeting. It is entirely not about Phil, it is all about holding the ship tight and making everyone accountable.

But we do not believe it is important. We instead think it is bad. We assumed superstars need more special treatments, not less, to be better. It is one of reason we hate on Rambis because he tried to do the same thing in his 9-19. It backfired because Melo didn't think Rambis had right to teach him anything then media knew what to say then everything else is history. Yeah, Rambis can be bad, but can we really know that by his 9-19? He took a ship which was already sinking. He was the defensive coach last season but why did he take this part? Because we were already super bad on defense so he was tasked to fix it. Sure, he failed to do so.

In short, it is very hard to succeed here because the fans are not very mature. If the owner is strict and strong, it would be still okay. But Dolan is very sensitive, and actually are moved by fans and media easily.

It is said that "If a gm thinks like a fan, sooner and later he will sit with them." There is a lot of truth in it.

Welcome to the forum Charlie Rosen!

Just because it's an "old tradition" doesn't mean it's viable forever. No, you can't treat players today like they did in the 70s. In fact, when Phil as a coach he didn't do that. I love this revisionist history. As a coach Phil was very non-traditional. One of the main reasons Kobe had issues with Phil was because he didn't treat Shaq like everyone else. He also bucked tradition by going to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of his best player Scottie Pippen.

We don't hate on Rambis because of his 9-19 record here, it's his 28% lifetime winning percentage as a coach. Melo wasn't the only one on the team who would've participated in a mutiny if Rambis became full time coach. Don't try to make Phil Jackson's failing as an executive about the fans, or Melo, or KP, or "old traditions" etc. Phil is gone because he wasn't getting the job done. Phil is not here because reportedly he was barely around doing his job (Mills was already doing most of the heavy lifting). Phil is not here because he couldn't stay awake during pre-draft work outs. Phil is not here because unlike when he was a coach, as an executive he didn't employ his "zen master" qualities in player relations. Phil isn't here because we ended up on the short end of the stick on most of his trades. Phil is gone because in additional to alienating his best player Melo, he starting messing with the future of the franchise, KP. That was the last straw for Dolan and he did the right thing kicking him to the curb.

If Phil was getting paid $60 million to not trade picks and maintaining cap space, he needs a ski mask for robbing Dolan blind.