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need to position oursleves for a reasonably high draft pick somehow
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BigSm00th
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8/20/2004  8:17 PM
Regardless on how good Vujanic will be (I never liked him), the suits in the NBA regarded him very highly.

I would've been perfectly content giving up Vujanic and a first rounder, but to thrown in another first rounder AND a 7 footer who was considered to be a lotto pick, even if his attitude is questionable, is dumb b/c you sacrifice a lot of your trading chips in one move. That's all I'm saying.
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Bonn1997
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8/20/2004  8:25 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

Regardless on how good Vujanic will be (I never liked him), the suits in the NBA regarded him very highly.
I'm not sure what that sentence means. Do you mean "scouts" (not "suits")?

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08/20/2004 20:25:42]
MaRbUrYiSaKnIcK
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8/20/2004  8:38 PM
Uhhhhh...... *drools*
Marbury is finally home at MSG!
Bonn1997
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8/20/2004  9:19 PM
Posted by MaRbUrYiSaKnIcK:

Uhhhhh...... *drools*
Yeah, I was confused too
Rich
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8/21/2004  12:25 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Rich:

It's not out of the question that the Knicks will tank this season, and they will have their own lottery pick.
Out of the thirty teams in the NBA, I think the Knicks would be the least likely to do that.

I don't mean on purpose, I just mean they could suck.
Rich
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8/21/2004  12:29 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Rich:

It's not out of the question that the Knicks will tank this season, and they will have their own lottery pick.
how could they? Even if we have injury problems, the chemistry sucks, etc this is still a .500 team. To much depth in a terrible conference.

I think its more realistic to use and expiring deal, take back a bad one and trade up in the process... something like that.

On the flip side looking at the draft in recent years the selection on bigs is pretty bad. Your almost better off drafting a project late like a Lampe or Ramos type and just overpaying for someone like Ratliff or Dampier (like Dallas did).

If Baker is only the player that he was last season, if Sweetney doesn't stay out of foul trouble, and if KT goes down, this could be a lottery team. I won't believe that Houston can make a meaningful contribution until I see it.
BigSm00th
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8/21/2004  12:45 AM
Suits is another word for team execs, sorry.

I said that his stock was high among teams, and he is regularly referred to as the best PG not in the NBA. Give him to the Suns, since they're getting Marbury. Why feel compelled to give them Lampe also, as well as 2 first rounders. All of this on top of MASSIVE cap space. That's a bit too much.

My personal feeling on Vujanic is he won't be good, I've watched him in the 02 Championships and in this year's Olympics and he hasn't impressed me at all. Regardless, his NBA value is still high so I had no problem dealing him. I did have a problem trading a 7 footer who could shoot, along with 2 first picks. That, in my opinion, was too much.

That's where I'm coming from, sorry if it didn't make sense.
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toodarkmark
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8/21/2004  1:24 AM
It's almost depressing reading this. Sacrifice seasons for a high draft pick who may turn out to be nothing. Instead of going out and putting together the best team you can. Yeah lets hope we can get a 1 Kwame Brown or a 6 Shane Battier type like in 2001, that will completely put us over the top. Or maybe a 2 Jay Williams, 3 Mike Dunleavy, or a 5 Nikoloz Tskitishvili like in 2002. All championship superstars in their own rights. Or maybe a 4 Marcus Fizer or a 2 Stromile Swift like in 2000. All these superstar starters at the top of the draft, I mean all you have to do is get a high pick, draft on potential, and championship here we come!

And never ever trade unproven players who have done nothing with the time theyre provided, and some bad contracts and some expiring ones for a Superstar player who may be the top player at his position, not to mention a hometown favorite, because a move like that could never turn around a franchise.

No you win through years of losing, being in the lottery and taking the best young prospects. I also think the Knicks gave up to much for Stephon who is the #1 0r 2 point guard in this league for *gasp* a few large expiring contracts, some European players who have done nothing in this league and may never, and a horrible contract. Along with some middle of the draft picks. No they couldve held onto it and finished the season with Howard Eisley at point guard, and maybe gotten the 10th pick. Then stayed at the #9, 10 pick for the next three years. Thats how you build yourself a championship alright.

I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
BigSm00th
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8/21/2004  4:05 AM
"I also think the Knicks gave up to much for Stephon who is the #1 0r 2 point guard in this league for *gasp* a few large expiring contracts, some European players who have done nothing in this league and may never, and a horrible contract. Along with some middle of the draft picks. No they couldve held onto it and finished the season with Howard Eisley at point guard, and maybe gotten the 10th pick. Then stayed at the #9, 10 pick for the next three years. Thats how you build yourself a championship alright."

I have always loved the Starbury trade, he's been my favorite player since I read Darcy Frey's book about Coney Island when he was at GTech. But look at the deal:

The Suns are transfering owners and need to cut costs. Isiah comes in and says we want Marbury, a player to build the franchise around and a player who WILL BE the best PG in the NBA this year (just my opinion). This works for both sides, the Suns get cap relief and the Knicks get their star player. Then they give up Vujanic. Fine, they don't need a prospect PG in Europe, and I don't think he'll amount to anything but the higher-ups in the NBA think a lot of him (he's routinely on the lists on ESPN.com for best players not in the NBA). Then they give up a first rounder, that's where I draw the line. Now they get cap relief, a nice prospect everyone thinks highly of, and two draft picks in the upcoming draft. Then they throw in Lampe, who could easily be used in other deals (wouldn't Golden State want Lampe in a deal for Dampier? How about Toronto for Vince Carter?) Then another pick is used. I love the deal and still love it, it's my opinion, looking at all of those facts, that they could've gotten off with less. Who knows? I wasn't in negotiations and there could've been a better deal on the table, it's just not a smart business move to throw all of your trading chips (expiring contracts, prospects, draft picks) into one deal. Give up the contracts, a pick, and a prospect, why throw in the other two?

Had Lampe been available, the Knicks might've been able to sweeten the package for Dampier. I saw the kid last year and this year in SL. He's slow as ****, can't defend, and has little post game, but he SHOOTS the lights out. He would look great with Stef on the pick and roll. He reminds me of Sam Perkins (less athletic).

That's where I'm coming from.

And with exception to the Pistons, most NBA champs do build through the draft and get extremely lucky.
Lakers --> draft Kobe (traded Vlade for him)
Spurs --> Admiral gets hurt one year, they stink, and wind up with Duncan (he should've been in Boston)
Rockets --> drafted Olajuwon
Bulls --> drafted MJ
Pistons --> drafted Isiah, built around him very well
Lakers --> drafted Magic, came in with great pieces (Big Game James, Kareem, etc)
Celtics --> drafted Bird, built around him

You need to get insanely lucky, but I still love the Marbury trade, just think they gave up a few too many pieces to get Starbury.
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Bonn1997
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8/21/2004  5:04 AM
Shaq (not happening), Ilgauskas (could be a possibility), Duncan, Dampier (attitude and effort are questionable), I mean, the list is so short what C are you going to acquire??? And what team is going to give this player up for expiring contracts?
When you can take $45 mil off a team's salary cap, the team will be willing to give up one good player. You basically are offering to take a team with an $85 mil payroll to below the salary cap. Expiring contracts of good players and/or draft picks (and we can offer our drafted 1st rounder this summer) have yielded players like Marbury, Abdur-Rahim, Ratliff (4 blocks a game), Jamal Crawford, and Rasheed Wallace.
Bonn1997
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8/21/2004  5:10 AM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Rich:

It's not out of the question that the Knicks will tank this season, and they will have their own lottery pick.
Out of the thirty teams in the NBA, I think the Knicks would be the least likely to do that.

I don't mean on purpose, I just mean they could suck.
Not on purpose? So you mean "accidentally tank"? I've never heard the term "tank" used that way, but okay.

No you win through years of losing, being in the lottery and taking the best young prospects. I also think the Knicks gave up to much for Stephon who is the #1 0r 2 point guard in this league for *gasp* a few large expiring contracts, some European players who have done nothing in this league and may never, and a horrible contract. Along with some middle of the draft picks. No they couldve held onto it and finished the season with Howard Eisley at point guard, and maybe gotten the 10th pick. Then stayed at the #9, 10 pick for the next three years. Thats how you build yourself a championship alright.
LOL! Well put

gardless on how good Vujanic will be (I never liked him), the suits in the NBA regarded him very highly.
I would've been perfectly content giving up Vujanic and a first rounder, but to thrown in another first rounder AND a 7 footer who was considered to be a lotto pick, even if his attitude is questionable, is dumb b/c you sacrifice a lot of your trading chips in one move. That's all I'm saying.
Suits were so high on them that they were drafted in the 30s, right? Giving up Vaginic in the trade was a blessing just because it got most fans to finally stop talking about the bum



Bonn1997
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8/21/2004  5:11 AM
Posted by RonRon:

i agree with briggs on this one, the next big centers coming out of their contracts will be shaq and yao. We have no chance in acquiring yao. no chance unless, shaq pulls a payton n malone. With our current team, I see us being a playoff contender or very close to it. I dont see how we can grab a big man with our predicted picks, therefore we will have to look at acquiring other teams picks. Big men is too rare, I dont see how teams are going to give up FA if they are proved useful. However, I think we should still take a crack with the rest of our midlevel on a big man like Keon Clark? 1-3 year deal? We need greater shot blocking and defense then what we have right now. Although Clark is a ? he can answer some of our problems if healthy. With the contracts all the big men have been getting, I think he can be a steal if we can get him for the rest of mle if hes healthy.


Dont 4get if we really are planning to acquire a big man from draft, it will take a min of 3 years to develop him. If marbary is really part of our future, we will have to do it b4 he turns in to a jason kiddd with his 2 ankles. I would like a marbary in his prime.
You DON'T have to get a top 3 or 4 center in order to win the championship. If you get a top 10 or 15 center and are very strong 1 to 4, you'll have a good shot.
RonRon
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8/21/2004  6:21 AM
our best defensive player was shipped to the bulls for crawford. Thomas is our next best thing, now if u watched any knick games, thomas could easily get abused by the 1-30 centers/f in the league.
watching thomas on duncan was a joke. we are missing height, athleticsim, shot blocking, and a big body.

im not here to bash the knicks, I think im being very realistic.
there is so much u can do on offense, although we have that fire power. look at the mavs, look at grizzlies. even they had a high power offense that meshed, a decent defensive team. and they got shut down by san antonio.

we got to find a gem in the draft or take a gamble on the kandis, clarks, etc.
RonRon
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8/21/2004  6:21 AM
our best defensive player was shipped to the bulls for crawford. Thomas is our next best thing, now if u watched any knick games, thomas could easily get abused by the 1-30 centers/f in the league.
watching thomas on duncan was a joke. we are missing height, athleticsim, shot blocking, and a big body.

im not here to bash the knicks, I think im being very realistic.
there is so much u can do on offense, although we have that fire power. look at the mavs, look at grizzlies. even they had a high power offense that meshed, a decent defensive team. and they got shut down by san antonio.

we got to find a gem in the draft or take a gamble on the kandis, clarks, etc.
Bonn1997
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8/21/2004  8:19 AM
our best defensive player was shipped to the bulls
So why did the team have its best month of the season when he was "coincidentally" injured?
Silverfuel
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8/21/2004  8:33 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
our best defensive player was shipped to the bulls
So why did the team have its best month of the season when he was "coincidentally" injured?
Because we un-coincidentally had a better team that month not because someone wasn't playing but because some others were playing.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
BRIGGS
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8/21/2004  9:58 AM
who the heck is saying tank the season? not me--not anything i read. i hope we win--if things arent going so well after 20-25 games-my hope is we can make a deal with pheonix to take back eisley and the bulls pick. they really need the cap room next year but it would likely take us trading KT for an expiring contract and them moving it on for eisley. We need a big man, no doubt about it. I havent found one who will be on the makrte that we have any ability to acquire. So we must take it upon ourselves to get up as high in the draft as possible to get 1. Toronto found Arajuo at 8 and we can go back and find many examples of finding a good big man top 6-12. Id actually like 2 big athletic men, but im greedy:>)
RIP Crushalot😞
BigSm00th
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8/21/2004  11:19 AM
Bonn it's a simple thought.

The team is made up of average to below-average wing defenders, whether it be Marbury, Crawford, Houston, Penny, TT, etc. Can they improve? Of course, but they will never be stoppers.

When people penetrate, or when they beat one of our many (last year it was one of our few big men, thank you Isiah for adding depth) big men, Mutumbo was the only player to block the shot. He'd block it, deflect it, or make the player think twice. The Knicks need somebody like this.

I know expiring contracts can yield you a great player, I've made that point before (though not in this thread). Here's to hoping Ratliff and Rasheed will be around. I ws just wondering if you could name a center who will have several years left on his contract, on a team that would have a shot at getting under the cap, and then I'd believe you. There's no way the Knicks trade $45 million in contracts to get a C and take like hundreds of millions back, it'll probably be Penny and Moochie. I've looked at the salaries, there just aren't many guys around.

The prospect of grooming your own C by acquiring him in the draft b/c you had to give up on KT at the All-Star break is, to me at least, a far better option than having to take on even more bad contracts so they can get one good center. I'd much rather groom a guy myself, with the coaches on this team. It's a difference of opinion.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Vujanic. Yeah, he was extremely well-regarded, if you don't believe, go back and check the Insider archive and the ESPN.com archive and look him up. I don't think he's a good player, but when he was picked (at 30, mind you, Redd, Arenas, Tony Parker all picked after 28) the analysts were saying it was a steal.

Do you not agree that giving the Suns cap relief, two prospects, and two draft picks was enough? If you don't, then this is simply a matter of difference of opinion. I think when you bail the Suns out of THAT much money with Marbury and Penny and Trybanski when they need to shed costs for the selling of the team, you've done enough. Give them Vujanic, he's a ***** for never coming to the NBA, and give them a first rounder. To give them another first rounder and the tallest guy on your team who is 19 and can shoot is, in my opinion, overpaying. Regardless, I still like the trade b/c Marbury's the man.

And yes, this team needs a shotblocker, they should sign Keon Clark so for the spans when he plays, the defense doesn't resemeble swiss cheese, with holes everywhere.
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toodarkmark
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8/21/2004  11:43 AM
You need to get insanely lucky, but I still love the Marbury trade, just think they gave up a few too many pieces to get Starbury.

I agree that we gave up to much. But at the time it wasn't too much. The Suns knew that the Knicks were desparate for an overhaul. Everyone knew, so that was their bargaining leverage. They could have easily said "We'll wait until the trading deadline." Isiah may have needed to sweeten the deal then. Plus never discount how much it costs to give up a contract like Howard Eisley's. If the trade were made right now, Lampe and the second first rounder is too much, but it was made then, and that was for a different team all together.

And although you mentioned some lucky teams that did well with draft picks, this is a huge huge huge minority. This is like .00001% of the high draft picks through history. You cant sit around, lose, and hope to be in the .000001% of teams, you have to go out and do what you can.
I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
BigSm00th
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8/21/2004  1:54 PM
Exactly Mark, I agree 100% with you on all your points.
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need to position oursleves for a reasonably high draft pick somehow

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