NardDogNation wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:You look at the Wizards now and basically that's what the Knicks will be looking to do going forward.

John Wall Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (1st pick, 1st overall), 2010 NBA Draft
Bradley Beal Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Otto Porter Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2013 NBA Draft
Kelly Oubre Jr. Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (15th pick, 15th overall), 2015 NBA Draft - Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.)

The Knicks can build a new core and key reserves through the draft. This draft is of course very important for the future prospects of the team. The Wall, Beal and Porter combo is the core of their drafting. IMO you need at least 3 core players coming from the draft. This combined with smart FA signings and Trades. The thing is it's much easier to fill in around a core of drafted players.

The development of those players is of course just as important. I think next season will be a very important year for development and Jeff has to show improvement as well. They can start to really build continuity and chemistry if they have a good development year next season. Show some growth individually and as a team.

Phil has to step up his work as well. They have to get more picks and assets going forward. Hope for more hits in the draft and continued player development. His signings have to have a higher success rate as well. He must come thru on his promise to find 2 Way Team Oriented players. He can't have anymore bad fits.

So 7 YEARS to win 49 Games and get ousted in second round? And whats going to happen after 2018 season when Wall is UFA? Commit 2 players to almost 60 Million of your cap? Porter? Problem is that its very hard to pick three core players, three years in a row. If you dont do that then you have your core players expiring and if they are really good you have to take up lots of Cap room. Or lose them. Problem Wiz will have before they win anything.

Think the formula is to get a game changer and surround him with support. Ie. Melo back before injuries. If you have some young pieces prior, then great. If you look at Boston, they were not very good until they brought in one of the best PG's in the League. They would probably still be a .500 team without him in spite of all their draft picks. But guess there is no magic solution. There are so many good players and teams in the league but there will always just be 1 that met their goal. And with players like LBJ or Curry, it is going to be hard for any team to put together a squad to beat them.

Well said

The Knicks are on the path towards being able to put a team on the court that is made up of a lot of their own home grown players. I don't know if that has really kicked in yet with the fans that are down on the team. That's a good thing. in a very short time we'll find out how this goes but the prospects are very exciting.

With great scouting and a little luck this could be a good summer for the build. Let's hope we get some breaks in the Lottery. The good news is that there are some talented players all the way up to 10.

NardDogNation wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Uptown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:You look at the Wizards now and basically that's what the Knicks will be looking to do going forward.

John Wall Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (1st pick, 1st overall), 2010 NBA Draft
Bradley Beal Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Otto Porter Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2013 NBA Draft
Kelly Oubre Jr. Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (15th pick, 15th overall), 2015 NBA Draft - Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.)

The Knicks can build a new core and key reserves through the draft. This draft is of course very important for the future prospects of the team. The Wall, Beal and Porter combo is the core of their drafting. IMO you need at least 3 core players coming from the draft. This combined with smart FA signings and Trades. The thing is it's much easier to fill in around a core of drafted players.

The development of those players is of course just as important. I think next season will be a very important year for development and Jeff has to show improvement as well. They can start to really build continuity and chemistry if they have a good development year next season. Show some growth individually and as a team.

Phil has to step up his work as well. They have to get more picks and assets going forward. Hope for more hits in the draft and continued player development. His signings have to have a higher success rate as well. He must come thru on his promise to find 2 Way Team Oriented players. He can't have anymore bad fits.

So 7 YEARS to win 49 Games and get ousted in second round? And whats going to happen after 2018 season when Wall is UFA? Commit 2 players to almost 60 Million of your cap? Porter? Problem is that its very hard to pick three core players, three years in a row. If you dont do that then you have your core players expiring and if they are really good you have to take up lots of Cap room. Or lose them. Problem Wiz will have before they win anything.

Think the formula is to get a game changer and surround him with support. Ie. Melo back before injuries. If you have some young pieces prior, then great. If you look at Boston, they were not very good until they brought in one of the best PG's in the League. They would probably still be a .500 team without him in spite of all their draft picks. But guess there is no magic solution. There are so many good players and teams in the league but there will always just be 1 that met their goal. And with players like LBJ or Curry, it is going to be hard for any team to put together a squad to beat them.

WOW! Way to be totally pessimistic!!!

No reason the Knicks are doomed to take 7 years to get to contention. This isn't about how long it took Washington. It's about the viable path the Knicks can take to building a core and then building around that core. The Picks don't have to be #1 overall. #1 overall is not the only spot in a draft that produces players that can help a team become a winner.

The concept of drafting 3 core players is not unique to Washington and I think we have to open our minds and not be so immediately pessimistic about how the rest of the team can be built around that core.

[b]Stephen Curry Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (7th pick, 7th overall), 2009 NBA Draft
Klay Thompson Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (11th pick, 11th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Draymond Green Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (5th pick, 35th overall), 2012 NBA Draft
[/b]
You can keep your core together and still build around them. You have to be smart in how you acquire talent and manage the cap. Thing is this problem is years down the line at this point for the Knicks. A lot can change between now and then in terms of their cap situation.

The Knicks are building for AFTER the dominance of Lebron and Curry. We are talking about the long term development of this team. This is just the beginning of the process. It's a huge summer because of the very real opportunities the Knicks have to take advantage of.

Perhaps you should change the title to GS Warriors an example of what the Knicks could do...Unfortunately, the Warriors coach, and good friend of phil, had a chance to build a version of the Warriros here in NY, but chose to ran as far away from phil as possible.

Also, you seem to have a ton of insight in terms of what the Knicks are planning since you speak in absolutes. Since you have so much insight, maybe you should share this plan with phil because trading for Rose, Noah, Lee and giving Melo the NTC does not indicate that the Knicks are building for after Lebron and Curry. BTW Curry is only 29 yrs old...he ain't going nowhere anytime soon.

JESUS! Sigh... this has nothing to do with Kerr, Scott Brooks or Hornacek!!! I'm talking about the players

This isn't about Rose or CLee or Noah. This is about the DRAFT and long term construction of this team. The Knicks will be drafting this year and next. Why this isn't obvious to all I don't know. I don't need any special insight to figure that out.

Curry and Lebron will be trending down as the Knicks are on the way up. At least that is the hope if the Knicks are successful in drafting.

Lee and Noah are on signed on for a few more years so it is still about them. Melo maybe back and Phil hasn't closed the door on resigning Rose. The Knicks have their own picks but they aren't stocked with picks like the Celtics or the Sixers. It is an important summer. Some great things could happen but there is the potential for Phil to make moves or signings like he has recently.

Neither CLee nor Noah present any serious problem right now. CLee might be traded but even if he stays it's not a problem in terms of Drafting Core Players! So NO, ITS NOT ABOUT THEM!

Knicks could use a few more picks and maybe they trade for some. Is this a serious issue tho? Good for Boston that they have a ton of picks but it means nothing in terms of what the Knicks will be able to do!!!

There are more chances for success than there are chances Phil would make a detrimental move this summer. It's a rebuild so most of the moves are going to be about building for the future and some about being competitive now.

Dude, you're making a number of wild assumptions. How did you even ascertain that we are rebuilding? I've never heard Phil make this claim specifically, while his moves seem to indicate he is interested in winning-now i.e. signing Courtney Lee, Joakim Noah, Aaron Afflalo, Robin Lopez and trading for Derrick Rose. Yes, we have young players we've drafted....so does every other team in the league, who usually gets to draft a pair (a first and second rounder) almost every year. We are no different in that regard and have had some notable flameouts in Cleanthony Early (picked ahead of Nikola Jokic) and Jerian Grant (picked ahead of Justin Anderson and Bobby Portis), so I'm skeptical of what Phil would do even if we were to actually rebuild.

By moving Melo you can assume that the team will look to get younger and more talented but also that they will have some struggles as they look to develop a lot of young players. Also is lame as F to bring up draft picks that didn't work out as if that's the point. Interesting that you only mention the draft picks that didn't work but not the young players that did work out.

GTFOH with your negative ass comments. Fans like you are poisoning the Internet and Twitter with your lack of open mindedness and willingness to just PISS on anything Knicks. I'm here to counter all that noise and at least try to present the possibilities open to this franchise. It's not all bad and not all DOOM AND GLOOM as you want to paint things. You need to go hang out with Isola and Woj if that's all you have to bring to the table.

nixluva wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Uptown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:You look at the Wizards now and basically that's what the Knicks will be looking to do going forward.

John Wall Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (1st pick, 1st overall), 2010 NBA Draft
Bradley Beal Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Otto Porter Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2013 NBA Draft
Kelly Oubre Jr. Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (15th pick, 15th overall), 2015 NBA Draft - Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.)

The Knicks can build a new core and key reserves through the draft. This draft is of course very important for the future prospects of the team. The Wall, Beal and Porter combo is the core of their drafting. IMO you need at least 3 core players coming from the draft. This combined with smart FA signings and Trades. The thing is it's much easier to fill in around a core of drafted players.

The development of those players is of course just as important. I think next season will be a very important year for development and Jeff has to show improvement as well. They can start to really build continuity and chemistry if they have a good development year next season. Show some growth individually and as a team.

Phil has to step up his work as well. They have to get more picks and assets going forward. Hope for more hits in the draft and continued player development. His signings have to have a higher success rate as well. He must come thru on his promise to find 2 Way Team Oriented players. He can't have anymore bad fits.

So 7 YEARS to win 49 Games and get ousted in second round? And whats going to happen after 2018 season when Wall is UFA? Commit 2 players to almost 60 Million of your cap? Porter? Problem is that its very hard to pick three core players, three years in a row. If you dont do that then you have your core players expiring and if they are really good you have to take up lots of Cap room. Or lose them. Problem Wiz will have before they win anything.

Think the formula is to get a game changer and surround him with support. Ie. Melo back before injuries. If you have some young pieces prior, then great. If you look at Boston, they were not very good until they brought in one of the best PG's in the League. They would probably still be a .500 team without him in spite of all their draft picks. But guess there is no magic solution. There are so many good players and teams in the league but there will always just be 1 that met their goal. And with players like LBJ or Curry, it is going to be hard for any team to put together a squad to beat them.

WOW! Way to be totally pessimistic!!!

No reason the Knicks are doomed to take 7 years to get to contention. This isn't about how long it took Washington. It's about the viable path the Knicks can take to building a core and then building around that core. The Picks don't have to be #1 overall. #1 overall is not the only spot in a draft that produces players that can help a team become a winner.

The concept of drafting 3 core players is not unique to Washington and I think we have to open our minds and not be so immediately pessimistic about how the rest of the team can be built around that core.

[b]Stephen Curry Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (7th pick, 7th overall), 2009 NBA Draft
Klay Thompson Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (11th pick, 11th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Draymond Green Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (5th pick, 35th overall), 2012 NBA Draft
[/b]
You can keep your core together and still build around them. You have to be smart in how you acquire talent and manage the cap. Thing is this problem is years down the line at this point for the Knicks. A lot can change between now and then in terms of their cap situation.

The Knicks are building for AFTER the dominance of Lebron and Curry. We are talking about the long term development of this team. This is just the beginning of the process. It's a huge summer because of the very real opportunities the Knicks have to take advantage of.

Perhaps you should change the title to GS Warriors an example of what the Knicks could do...Unfortunately, the Warriors coach, and good friend of phil, had a chance to build a version of the Warriros here in NY, but chose to ran as far away from phil as possible.

Also, you seem to have a ton of insight in terms of what the Knicks are planning since you speak in absolutes. Since you have so much insight, maybe you should share this plan with phil because trading for Rose, Noah, Lee and giving Melo the NTC does not indicate that the Knicks are building for after Lebron and Curry. BTW Curry is only 29 yrs old...he ain't going nowhere anytime soon.

JESUS! Sigh... this has nothing to do with Kerr, Scott Brooks or Hornacek!!! I'm talking about the players

This isn't about Rose or CLee or Noah. This is about the DRAFT and long term construction of this team. The Knicks will be drafting this year and next. Why this isn't obvious to all I don't know. I don't need any special insight to figure that out.

Curry and Lebron will be trending down as the Knicks are on the way up. At least that is the hope if the Knicks are successful in drafting.

Lee and Noah are on signed on for a few more years so it is still about them. Melo maybe back and Phil hasn't closed the door on resigning Rose. The Knicks have their own picks but they aren't stocked with picks like the Celtics or the Sixers. It is an important summer. Some great things could happen but there is the potential for Phil to make moves or signings like he has recently.

Neither CLee nor Noah present any serious problem right now. CLee might be traded but even if he stays it's not a problem in terms of Drafting Core Players! So NO, ITS NOT ABOUT THEM!

Knicks could use a few more picks and maybe they trade for some. Is this a serious issue tho? Good for Boston that they have a ton of picks but it means nothing in terms of what the Knicks will be able to do!!!

There are more chances for success than there are chances Phil would make a detrimental move this summer. It's a rebuild so most of the moves are going to be about building for the future and some about being competitive now.

Dude, you're making a number of wild assumptions. How did you even ascertain that we are rebuilding? I've never heard Phil make this claim specifically, while his moves seem to indicate he is interested in winning-now i.e. signing Courtney Lee, Joakim Noah, Aaron Afflalo, Robin Lopez and trading for Derrick Rose. Yes, we have young players we've drafted....so does every other team in the league, who usually gets to draft a pair (a first and second rounder) almost every year. We are no different in that regard and have had some notable flameouts in Cleanthony Early (picked ahead of Nikola Jokic) and Jerian Grant (picked ahead of Justin Anderson and Bobby Portis), so I'm skeptical of what Phil would do even if we were to actually rebuild.

Where have you been? Under a F'n ROCK? I'm not making any "wild assumptions" It's just simple logic which seems to be lost on you! This isn't going to be a typical rebuild where you go into the season just looking to lose. Phil is doing a rebuild but not looking to TANK by just having nothing on the roster. He's been pretty clear on that.

By moving Melo you can assume that the team will look to get younger and more talented but also that they will have some struggles as they look to develop a lot of young players. Also is lame as F to bring up draft picks that didn't work out as if that's the point. Interesting that you only mention the draft picks that didn't work but not the young players that did work out.

GTFOH with your negative ass comments. Fans like you are poisoning the Internet and Twitter with your lack of open mindedness and willingness to just PISS on anything Knicks. I'm here to counter all that noise and at least try to present the possibilities open to this franchise. It's not all bad and not all DOOM AND GLOOM as you want to paint things. You need to go hang out with Isola and Woj if that's all you have to bring to the table.

So Phil is making every effort to win as many games as he can by signing big-ticket veterans, then when he fails spectacularly it is an indication that we are rebuilding because we actually have a first round pick (and hardly any seconds because they've all been traded)? Gotcha. Keep up the good work, bro.

sometimes you get teams like Sac with Weber who had great talent, Portland with Dunleavy, Seattle with Payton, and Utah and never get it done. Seattle tanked, got to draft Ibaka, Harden, Durant and Westbrook and only have one finals trip to show for it. ONLY??? They have a great fan base still!!
Look how many of you are knick fans because of the ewing era. Contend and you bond with your fans. Chips are great and it should always be the goal but was are not children and understand there is a balance of winning and running a business.

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:You look at the Wizards now and basically that's what the Knicks will be looking to do going forward.

John Wall Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (1st pick, 1st overall), 2010 NBA Draft
Bradley Beal Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Otto Porter Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2013 NBA Draft
Kelly Oubre Jr. Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (15th pick, 15th overall), 2015 NBA Draft - Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.)

The Knicks can build a new core and key reserves through the draft. This draft is of course very important for the future prospects of the team. The Wall, Beal and Porter combo is the core of their drafting. IMO you need at least 3 core players coming from the draft. This combined with smart FA signings and Trades. The thing is it's much easier to fill in around a core of drafted players.

The development of those players is of course just as important. I think next season will be a very important year for development and Jeff has to show improvement as well. They can start to really build continuity and chemistry if they have a good development year next season. Show some growth individually and as a team.

Phil has to step up his work as well. They have to get more picks and assets going forward. Hope for more hits in the draft and continued player development. His signings have to have a higher success rate as well. He must come thru on his promise to find 2 Way Team Oriented players. He can't have anymore bad fits.

So 7 YEARS to win 49 Games and get ousted in second round? And whats going to happen after 2018 season when Wall is UFA? Commit 2 players to almost 60 Million of your cap? Porter? Problem is that its very hard to pick three core players, three years in a row. If you dont do that then you have your core players expiring and if they are really good you have to take up lots of Cap room. Or lose them. Problem Wiz will have before they win anything.

Think the formula is to get a game changer and surround him with support. Ie. Melo back before injuries. If you have some young pieces prior, then great. If you look at Boston, they were not very good until they brought in one of the best PG's in the League. They would probably still be a .500 team without him in spite of all their draft picks. But guess there is no magic solution. There are so many good players and teams in the league but there will always just be 1 that met their goal. And with players like LBJ or Curry, it is going to be hard for any team to put together a squad to beat them.

WOW! Way to be totally pessimistic!!!

No reason the Knicks are doomed to take 7 years to get to contention. This isn't about how long it took Washington. It's about the viable path the Knicks can take to building a core and then building around that core. The Picks don't have to be #1 overall. #1 overall is not the only spot in a draft that produces players that can help a team become a winner.

The concept of drafting 3 core players is not unique to Washington and I think we have to open our minds and not be so immediately pessimistic about how the rest of the team can be built around that core.

Stephen Curry Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (7th pick, 7th overall), 2009 NBA Draft
Klay Thompson Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (11th pick, 11th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Draymond Green Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (5th pick, 35th overall), 2012 NBA Draft

You can keep your core together and still build around them. You have to be smart in how you acquire talent and manage the cap. Thing is this problem is years down the line at this point for the Knicks. A lot can change between now and then in terms of their cap situation.

The Knicks are building for AFTER the dominance of Lebron and Curry. We are talking about the long term development of this team. This is just the beginning of the process. It's a huge summer because of the very real opportunities the Knicks have to take advantage of.

If we just use the tank and draft model, yes, lots of years. Your making it sound like I am against the draft. Not true. Point was that its more than just losing and hoping you get a Curry or LBJ. We have sucked for 3 years and we have just one possible core player. One that still needs to continue to improve and fill in to his position. We have had 6 top 10 picks since 2000 with no Curry or LBJ types. My point is that it is important to be good in all aspects of player recruitment. Including building a young core in FA and Trade market as well.

But back to the thread topic. Wiz...Yes 7 YEARS and counting. Point of my response was not to depress you regarding the state of the Knicks but rather to join thread topic. IMO, Wiz and other teams like them, have and will have many challenges. GS is not a typical example of a team soley built through draft. Just as Lotto winners are not good examples on realistic ways of making a living. Curry won them the lottery. The Wiz were a more realistic and better example of most teams that have tried to build simply through the draft only. And as mentioned, they are nowhere near winning a chip and will soon enter years of having tough challenges in keeping their drafted players. Other realistic examples... Philly, Minny, Jazz, Sacramento, NO, Clips, Suns, Hornets, Magic, Pistons, Nuggets, Bucks etc. Pessimistic or Realistic? But I hope your right and we hit the Lotto in the draft. I will continue to hope we get lucky in the draft but also create an enviroment for guys like IT to want come here as FA's

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:You look at the Wizards now and basically that's what the Knicks will be looking to do going forward.

John Wall Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (1st pick, 1st overall), 2010 NBA Draft
Bradley Beal Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Otto Porter Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2013 NBA Draft
Kelly Oubre Jr. Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (15th pick, 15th overall), 2015 NBA Draft - Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.)

The Knicks can build a new core and key reserves through the draft. This draft is of course very important for the future prospects of the team. The Wall, Beal and Porter combo is the core of their drafting. IMO you need at least 3 core players coming from the draft. This combined with smart FA signings and Trades. The thing is it's much easier to fill in around a core of drafted players.

The development of those players is of course just as important. I think next season will be a very important year for development and Jeff has to show improvement as well. They can start to really build continuity and chemistry if they have a good development year next season. Show some growth individually and as a team.

Phil has to step up his work as well. They have to get more picks and assets going forward. Hope for more hits in the draft and continued player development. His signings have to have a higher success rate as well. He must come thru on his promise to find 2 Way Team Oriented players. He can't have anymore bad fits.

So 7 YEARS to win 49 Games and get ousted in second round? And whats going to happen after 2018 season when Wall is UFA? Commit 2 players to almost 60 Million of your cap? Porter? Problem is that its very hard to pick three core players, three years in a row. If you dont do that then you have your core players expiring and if they are really good you have to take up lots of Cap room. Or lose them. Problem Wiz will have before they win anything.

Think the formula is to get a game changer and surround him with support. Ie. Melo back before injuries. If you have some young pieces prior, then great. If you look at Boston, they were not very good until they brought in one of the best PG's in the League. They would probably still be a .500 team without him in spite of all their draft picks. But guess there is no magic solution. There are so many good players and teams in the league but there will always just be 1 that met their goal. And with players like LBJ or Curry, it is going to be hard for any team to put together a squad to beat them.

WOW! Way to be totally pessimistic!!!

No reason the Knicks are doomed to take 7 years to get to contention. This isn't about how long it took Washington. It's about the viable path the Knicks can take to building a core and then building around that core. The Picks don't have to be #1 overall. #1 overall is not the only spot in a draft that produces players that can help a team become a winner.

The concept of drafting 3 core players is not unique to Washington and I think we have to open our minds and not be so immediately pessimistic about how the rest of the team can be built around that core.

Stephen Curry Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (7th pick, 7th overall), 2009 NBA Draft
Klay Thompson Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (11th pick, 11th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Draymond Green Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (5th pick, 35th overall), 2012 NBA Draft

You can keep your core together and still build around them. You have to be smart in how you acquire talent and manage the cap. Thing is this problem is years down the line at this point for the Knicks. A lot can change between now and then in terms of their cap situation.

The Knicks are building for AFTER the dominance of Lebron and Curry. We are talking about the long term development of this team. This is just the beginning of the process. It's a huge summer because of the very real opportunities the Knicks have to take advantage of.

If we just use the tank and draft model, yes, lots of years. Your making it sound like I am against the draft. Not true. Point was that its more than just losing and hoping you get a Curry or LBJ. We have sucked for 3 years and we have just one possible core player. One that still needs to continue to improve and fill in to his position. We have had 6 top 10 picks since 2000 with no Curry or LBJ types. My point is that it is important to be good in all aspects of player recruitment. And think signing players Like Noah and giving up assets for nothing hurt that.

But back to the thread topic. Wiz...Yes 7 YEARS and counting. Point of my response was not to depress you regarding the state of the Knicks but rather to join thread topic. IMO, Wiz and other teams like them, have and will have many challenges. GS is not a typical example of a team soley built through draft. Just as Lotto winners are not good examples on realistic ways of making a living. The Wiz were a more realistic and better example of most teams that have tried to build simply through the draft only. And as mentioned, they are nowhere near winning a chip and will soon enter years of having tough challenges in keeping their drafted players. Other realistic examples... Philly, Minny, Jazz, Sacramento, NO, Clips, Suns, Hornets, Magic, Pistons, Nuggets, Bucks etc. Pessimistic or Realistic? But I hope your right and we hit the Lotto in the draft. I will continue to hope we get lucky in the draft but also create an enviroment for guys like IT to want come here as FA's

I don't expect the Knicks to do that and Phil has already stated that he's going to have vets on the team and not just a bunch of kids. My point is that we have to START with a core of drafted talent and then you can use Free Agency and Trades to finish the process. It's got to start with some home grown talent and development.

Just cuz a lot of teams struggled and continue to struggle doesn't mean the Knicks will. I already think there's more of a foundation being established. Some fans and the Media complain about Phil and the Triangle but that is actually a positive factor. They were able to identify some players that can execute at the right level and this will make the process smoother going forward. They're not guessing or stabbing in the dark as it might seem. There's a framework that they're building with.

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:You look at the Wizards now and basically that's what the Knicks will be looking to do going forward.

John Wall Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (1st pick, 1st overall), 2010 NBA Draft
Bradley Beal Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Otto Porter Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2013 NBA Draft
Kelly Oubre Jr. Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (15th pick, 15th overall), 2015 NBA Draft - Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.)

The Knicks can build a new core and key reserves through the draft. This draft is of course very important for the future prospects of the team. The Wall, Beal and Porter combo is the core of their drafting. IMO you need at least 3 core players coming from the draft. This combined with smart FA signings and Trades. The thing is it's much easier to fill in around a core of drafted players.

The development of those players is of course just as important. I think next season will be a very important year for development and Jeff has to show improvement as well. They can start to really build continuity and chemistry if they have a good development year next season. Show some growth individually and as a team.

Phil has to step up his work as well. They have to get more picks and assets going forward. Hope for more hits in the draft and continued player development. His signings have to have a higher success rate as well. He must come thru on his promise to find 2 Way Team Oriented players. He can't have anymore bad fits.

So 7 YEARS to win 49 Games and get ousted in second round? And whats going to happen after 2018 season when Wall is UFA? Commit 2 players to almost 60 Million of your cap? Porter? Problem is that its very hard to pick three core players, three years in a row. If you dont do that then you have your core players expiring and if they are really good you have to take up lots of Cap room. Or lose them. Problem Wiz will have before they win anything.

Think the formula is to get a game changer and surround him with support. Ie. Melo back before injuries. If you have some young pieces prior, then great. If you look at Boston, they were not very good until they brought in one of the best PG's in the League. They would probably still be a .500 team without him in spite of all their draft picks. But guess there is no magic solution. There are so many good players and teams in the league but there will always just be 1 that met their goal. And with players like LBJ or Curry, it is going to be hard for any team to put together a squad to beat them.

WOW! Way to be totally pessimistic!!!

No reason the Knicks are doomed to take 7 years to get to contention. This isn't about how long it took Washington. It's about the viable path the Knicks can take to building a core and then building around that core. The Picks don't have to be #1 overall. #1 overall is not the only spot in a draft that produces players that can help a team become a winner.

The concept of drafting 3 core players is not unique to Washington and I think we have to open our minds and not be so immediately pessimistic about how the rest of the team can be built around that core.

Stephen Curry Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (7th pick, 7th overall), 2009 NBA Draft
Klay Thompson Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (11th pick, 11th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Draymond Green Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (5th pick, 35th overall), 2012 NBA Draft

You can keep your core together and still build around them. You have to be smart in how you acquire talent and manage the cap. Thing is this problem is years down the line at this point for the Knicks. A lot can change between now and then in terms of their cap situation.

The Knicks are building for AFTER the dominance of Lebron and Curry. We are talking about the long term development of this team. This is just the beginning of the process. It's a huge summer because of the very real opportunities the Knicks have to take advantage of.

If we just use the tank and draft model, yes, lots of years. Your making it sound like I am against the draft. Not true. Point was that its more than just losing and hoping you get a Curry or LBJ. We have sucked for 3 years and we have just one possible core player. One that still needs to continue to improve and fill in to his position. We have had 6 top 10 picks since 2000 with no Curry or LBJ types. My point is that it is important to be good in all aspects of player recruitment. And think signing players Like Noah and giving up assets for nothing hurt that.

But back to the thread topic. Wiz...Yes 7 YEARS and counting. Point of my response was not to depress you regarding the state of the Knicks but rather to join thread topic. IMO, Wiz and other teams like them, have and will have many challenges. GS is not a typical example of a team soley built through draft. Just as Lotto winners are not good examples on realistic ways of making a living. The Wiz were a more realistic and better example of most teams that have tried to build simply through the draft only. And as mentioned, they are nowhere near winning a chip and will soon enter years of having tough challenges in keeping their drafted players. Other realistic examples... Philly, Minny, Jazz, Sacramento, NO, Clips, Suns, Hornets, Magic, Pistons, Nuggets, Bucks etc. Pessimistic or Realistic? But I hope your right and we hit the Lotto in the draft. I will continue to hope we get lucky in the draft but also create an enviroment for guys like IT to want come here as FA's

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the Knicks were trying to build SOLELY through the draft. I was very specific in talking about building the CORE of the team thru the draft. That's a very solid approach and the Knicks are not starting from a bad place since when you're talking about CORE players thru the draft it's usually just 2 to 4 players!!! You're simply not going to draft the entire team, even tho Philly is a long way towards trying to do that.

I don't expect the Knicks to do that and Phil has already stated that he's going to have vets on the team and not just a bunch of kids. My point is that we have to START with a core of drafted talent and then you can use Free Agency and Trades to finish the process. It's got to start with some home grown talent and development.

Just cuz a lot of teams struggled and continue to struggle doesn't mean the Knicks will. I already think there's more of a foundation being established. Some fans and the Media complain about Phil and the Triangle but that is actually a positive factor. They were able to identify some players that can execute at the right level and this will make the process smoother going forward. They're not guessing or stabbing in the dark as it might seem. There's a framework that they're building with.

Ofcourse, I agree that Draft is a good place to pick up good pieces. Entire Core of a top winner, not so much. Just "Because other teams have struggled"? Yes, have to take probability into account. Its a numbers game, few have been able to do so. (GS)

Here is my worry with the current state of the Knicks (As you already know). If a team is at the point of tanking in order to get "Core" pieces, something went seriously wrong. As tanking as a building model is not a real PLAN but merely a situation as a result of bad management and decisions. Problem, I feel, is that we will still have the same people in charge making those decisions that put us here to begin with. Second, if we are to construct a better model for rebuilding, you would have to attract young FA's to the system. We have not been able to do so in many years and feel we are less able to do so today. Third, picking "Core" pieces mean selecting the best available player at the time of the draft pick, regardless of need. I am afraid that instead of doing just that, we will pick the best player that fits the system. A system that may only be around for 2 more years. Not to mention that our only current Core player is not simpatico with the Prez. Hope your enthusiasm wins out and my fears are just that. Maybe we get a good piece with the 7 pick. The 45 and 58 wont be much. Specially when you consider even our top 30 picks have not made it very far with us.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:You look at the Wizards now and basically that's what the Knicks will be looking to do going forward.

John Wall Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (1st pick, 1st overall), 2010 NBA Draft
Bradley Beal Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2012 NBA Draft
Otto Porter Draft: Washington Wizards, 1st round (3rd pick, 3rd overall), 2013 NBA Draft
Kelly Oubre Jr. Draft: Atlanta Hawks, 1st round (15th pick, 15th overall), 2015 NBA Draft - Atlanta Hawks (traded to Washington Wizards for Tim Hardaway Jr.)

The Knicks can build a new core and key reserves through the draft. This draft is of course very important for the future prospects of the team. The Wall, Beal and Porter combo is the core of their drafting. IMO you need at least 3 core players coming from the draft. This combined with smart FA signings and Trades. The thing is it's much easier to fill in around a core of drafted players.

The development of those players is of course just as important. I think next season will be a very important year for development and Jeff has to show improvement as well. They can start to really build continuity and chemistry if they have a good development year next season. Show some growth individually and as a team.

Phil has to step up his work as well. They have to get more picks and assets going forward. Hope for more hits in the draft and continued player development. His signings have to have a higher success rate as well. He must come thru on his promise to find 2 Way Team Oriented players. He can't have anymore bad fits.

So 7 YEARS to win 49 Games and get ousted in second round? And whats going to happen after 2018 season when Wall is UFA? Commit 2 players to almost 60 Million of your cap? Porter? Problem is that its very hard to pick three core players, three years in a row. If you dont do that then you have your core players expiring and if they are really good you have to take up lots of Cap room. Or lose them. Problem Wiz will have before they win anything.

Think the formula is to get a game changer and surround him with support. Ie. Melo back before injuries. If you have some young pieces prior, then great. If you look at Boston, they were not very good until they brought in one of the best PG's in the League. They would probably still be a .500 team without him in spite of all their draft picks. But guess there is no magic solution. There are so many good players and teams in the league but there will always just be 1 that met their goal. And with players like LBJ or Curry, it is going to be hard for any team to put together a squad to beat them.

WOW! Way to be totally pessimistic!!!

No reason the Knicks are doomed to take 7 years to get to contention. This isn't about how long it took Washington. It's about the viable path the Knicks can take to building a core and then building around that core. The Picks don't have to be #1 overall. #1 overall is not the only spot in a draft that produces players that can help a team become a winner.

The concept of drafting 3 core players is not unique to Washington and I think we have to open our minds and not be so immediately pessimistic about how the rest of the team can be built around that core.

Stephen Curry Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (7th pick, 7th overall), 2009 NBA Draft
Klay Thompson Draft: Golden State Warriors, 1st round (11th pick, 11th overall), 2011 NBA Draft
Draymond Green Draft: Golden State Warriors, 2nd round (5th pick, 35th overall), 2012 NBA Draft

You can keep your core together and still build around them. You have to be smart in how you acquire talent and manage the cap. Thing is this problem is years down the line at this point for the Knicks. A lot can change between now and then in terms of their cap situation.

The Knicks are building for AFTER the dominance of Lebron and Curry. We are talking about the long term development of this team. This is just the beginning of the process. It's a huge summer because of the very real opportunities the Knicks have to take advantage of.

If we just use the tank and draft model, yes, lots of years. Your making it sound like I am against the draft. Not true. Point was that its more than just losing and hoping you get a Curry or LBJ. We have sucked for 3 years and we have just one possible core player. One that still needs to continue to improve and fill in to his position. We have had 6 top 10 picks since 2000 with no Curry or LBJ types. My point is that it is important to be good in all aspects of player recruitment. And think signing players Like Noah and giving up assets for nothing hurt that.

But back to the thread topic. Wiz...Yes 7 YEARS and counting. Point of my response was not to depress you regarding the state of the Knicks but rather to join thread topic. IMO, Wiz and other teams like them, have and will have many challenges. GS is not a typical example of a team soley built through draft. Just as Lotto winners are not good examples on realistic ways of making a living. The Wiz were a more realistic and better example of most teams that have tried to build simply through the draft only. And as mentioned, they are nowhere near winning a chip and will soon enter years of having tough challenges in keeping their drafted players. Other realistic examples... Philly, Minny, Jazz, Sacramento, NO, Clips, Suns, Hornets, Magic, Pistons, Nuggets, Bucks etc. Pessimistic or Realistic? But I hope your right and we hit the Lotto in the draft. I will continue to hope we get lucky in the draft but also create an enviroment for guys like IT to want come here as FA's

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the Knicks were trying to build SOLELY through the draft. I was very specific in talking about building the CORE of the team thru the draft. That's a very solid approach and the Knicks are not starting from a bad place since when you're talking about CORE players thru the draft it's usually just 2 to 4 players!!! You're simply not going to draft the entire team, even tho Philly is a long way towards trying to do that.

I don't expect the Knicks to do that and Phil has already stated that he's going to have vets on the team and not just a bunch of kids. My point is that we have to START with a core of drafted talent and then you can use Free Agency and Trades to finish the process. It's got to start with some home grown talent and development.

Just cuz a lot of teams struggled and continue to struggle doesn't mean the Knicks will. I already think there's more of a foundation being established. Some fans and the Media complain about Phil and the Triangle but that is actually a positive factor. They were able to identify some players that can execute at the right level and this will make the process smoother going forward. They're not guessing or stabbing in the dark as it might seem. There's a framework that they're building with.

Ofcourse, I agree that Draft is a good place to pick up good pieces. Entire Core of a top winner, not so much. Just "Because other teams have struggled"? Yes, have to take probability into account. Its a numbers game, few have been able to do so. (GS)

Here is my worry with the current state of the Knicks (As you already know). If a team is at the point of tanking in order to get "Core" pieces, something went seriously wrong. As tanking as a building model is not a real PLAN but merely a situation as a result of bad management and decisions. Problem, I feel, is that we will still have the same people in charge making those decisions that put us here to begin with. Second, if we are to construct a better model for rebuilding, you would have to attract young FA's to the system. We have not been able to do so in many years and feel we are less able to do so today. Third, picking "Core" pieces mean selecting the best available player at the time of the draft pick, regardless of need. I am afraid that instead of doing just that, we will pick the best player that fits the system. A system that may only be around for 2 more years. Not to mention that our only current Core player is not simpatico with the Prez. Hope your enthusiasm wins out and my fears are just that. Maybe we get a good piece with the 7 pick. The 45 and 58 wont be much. Specially when you consider even top 30 picks have not made it very far with us.

1) You have to start the Core with Drafted Talent. Then you develop that talent and build up the team so that it's a more attractive spot to come to for a FA. You simply can't skip this step. It's LOGICAL and very doable.

2) Jeff's version of the Triangle is a non issue. It's modernized enough to fit just about any player. Knicks aren't going to be pigeon holed in this draft given that we have several Guards and Small Forwards that could be available. The talent level in this draft is fairly even in the top 10. This isn't a purely theoretical situation. We KNOW who is likely to be available in this draft from 7-10. Aside from maybe Markkanen there aren't really any terrible choices in terms of fit or need.

1 Markelle Fultz PG/SG | Washington 6'5" 185 lbs Freshman
18.9 yrs 23.2 PTS  5.7 REB  5.9 AST  1.2 BLK	1.6 STL
2 Lonzo Ball PG | UCLA 6'6" 190 lbs Freshman
19.5 yrs 14.6 PTS  6.0 REB  7.6 AST  0.8 BLK	1.8 STL
3 Josh Jackson SF | Kansas 6'8" 205 lbs Freshman
20.2 yrs  16.3 PTS	7.4 REB	3.0 AST	1.1 BLK	1.7 STL
4 Jayson Tatum SF | Duke 6'8" 205 lbs Freshman
19.2 yrs  16.8 PTS  7.3 REB  2.1 AST	1.1 BLK	1.3 STL
5 Jonathan Isaac SF | Florida State 6'11" 205 lbs Freshman
19.6 yrs  12.0 PTS  7.8 REB  1.2 AST	1.5 BLK	1.2 STL
6 Malik Monk SG/PG | Kentucky 6'3" 190 lbs Freshman
19.2 yrs  19.8 PTS  2.5 REB  2.3 AST	0.5 BLK	0.9 STL
7 Dennis Smith PG | NC State 6'2" 180 lbs Freshman
19.4 yrs  18.1 PTS  4.6 REB  6.2 AST	0.4 BLK	1.9 STL
8 De'Aaron Fox PG | Kentucky 6'4" 170 lbs Freshman
19.4 yrs  16.7 PTS  4.0 REB  4.6 AST	0.2 BLK	1.5 STL
9 Frank Ntilikina PG | Strasbourg IG 6'5" 175 lbs International
18.8 yrs
10 Lauri Markkanen PF | Arizona 7'0" 225 lbs Freshman
19.9 yrs  15.6 PTS  7.2 REB  0.9 AST    0.5 BLK	0.4 STL

3) You don't know what the 2nd rd picks will produce! You simply can't say good or bad with those but we do have a pretty solid Scouting Dept. We simply have to wait and see how the 2nd Rd picks pan out if we get anything good
it's a PLUS.

4) We still have to wait and see how any Trades and Free Agency may impact the roster. This is simply not knowable right now but there is potential for something positive to happen here. When you have a losing team any upgrades can make a difference.