holfresh wrote:Excerpts from an article when JH was hired...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/04/sports/basketball/jeff-hornacek-knicks-new-coach-says-triangle-will-be-part-of-offense.html?_r=0

Not surprisingly, the second question at the news conference was about the triangle offense that is so closely identified with Jackson and how much Hornacek intended to use it. Hornacek’s answer was that he would use it, or at least key elements of it, but that he would employ other offensive strategies as well.

In other words, Hornacek indicated that he saw the triangle as part of a larger offensive philosophy, an answer Jackson seemed fine with.

“Am I going to run the triangle?” Hornacek said. “I would say I wouldn’t call it the triangle. There’s a lot of aspects of the triangle — the spacing, the cuts off hitting the post — that are not unique to the triangle.”

“It’s all part of basketball, and Jeff recognizes that,” Jackson said.

At several moments in the news conference, Jackson tried to intersperse bits of humor into the occasion, at one point comparing the challenging quest for quality cafeteria food at the Knicks’ practice complex to the difficulty in beating out other teams for free agents.

At other times, he was more direct.

“We’ve started all over again,” Jackson said of the Knicks. “We’ve cleaned our roster, we’ve garnered money and space, and we’ve changed the context of what this team is.”

Oh, the other thing is if Phil wants to run the triangle, then he needs to hire a coach that wants to run the triangle. He cannot hire a coach and then try to force that coach to run Phil's offense. That is not the GM's job and Phil either needs to coach the team or stay out of the way.

nixluva wrote:

TheGame wrote:Can we all just agree that the whole thing has been handled terribly wrong. I know what Phil did what he did. He has no leverage as Melo has a no-trade clause, so he is trying to make this thing so toxic that Melo just decides to waive the clause for any deal that sounds remotely reasonable to Melo. So I get it. But the whole thing lacks class, and really, Melo is not the main problem on this team. You add a Chris Paul to this team and we win 60 games. We have no real leader on offense, and we have too many bad defenders on defense. The team can deal with Melo's defense, but we cannot have bad defense from the PG and PF, as KP looked barely adequate on defense after his injury. They need to work on defense, get a more defensive minded PG, and move KP to center full time (which I hope he can handle after another summer of adding weight and working out). Hopefully, we get lucky in the draft and can get someone that helps solve some of our problems.

Oh, the other thing is if Phil wants to run the triangle, then he needs to hire a coach that wants to run the triangle. He cannot hire a coach and then try to force that coach to run Phil's offense. That is not the GM's job and Phil either needs to coach the team or stay out of the way.

Melo is on the team and not listening to what the coach or Phil is saying. They say Melo stop holding he ball so much, Melo gets the ball and holds it too much. They say Melo get back on D and move your feet. Melo dogs it back on D and makes weak efforts to move his feet. They say Melo help out the kids a bit by passing more...

I mean at a certain point I can understand Phil getting pissed off and saying to himself this MF'er. We may not agree with what Phil did but I can totally understand how he's looking at Melo squatting squarely in the middle of the floor and not buying in but taking most of the shots and touches. How long do you think anyone would want to sit and watch that CRAP as the team loses and the young players never get a chance to grow???

For this franchise to truly move forward Melo has to go!!! They can't win with him and might as well lose without him and his BS. Can anyone defending Melo really say that he's GOOD for the New York Knicks???

Look Melo holds the ball too much. No one disagrees with that, but if you are a star offensive player, you are going to hold the ball more than other players. That is just how it is. Our problem was (1) Rose never passed except as a last resort and he refused to commit to taking 3s, which harmed the spacing; (2) neither rose or jennings were consistent on defense or in anyway led the offense, (3) Willy and KP were average at best on defense and Willy is not a shot blocker; (4) Lance Thomas being hurt most of the season meant we lost our best defender (we probably would have won 6-8 more games if Lance had been healthy). Melo's bad defense was also a problem, and Melo did not trust the offense to create easier shots for himself, but I just don't see Melo as the main problem with the team, and I don't know who is going to score next year without Melo drawing attention.

TheGame wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TheGame wrote:Can we all just agree that the whole thing has been handled terribly wrong. I know what Phil did what he did. He has no leverage as Melo has a no-trade clause, so he is trying to make this thing so toxic that Melo just decides to waive the clause for any deal that sounds remotely reasonable to Melo. So I get it. But the whole thing lacks class, and really, Melo is not the main problem on this team. You add a Chris Paul to this team and we win 60 games. We have no real leader on offense, and we have too many bad defenders on defense. The team can deal with Melo's defense, but we cannot have bad defense from the PG and PF, as KP looked barely adequate on defense after his injury. They need to work on defense, get a more defensive minded PG, and move KP to center full time (which I hope he can handle after another summer of adding weight and working out). Hopefully, we get lucky in the draft and can get someone that helps solve some of our problems.

Oh, the other thing is if Phil wants to run the triangle, then he needs to hire a coach that wants to run the triangle. He cannot hire a coach and then try to force that coach to run Phil's offense. That is not the GM's job and Phil either needs to coach the team or stay out of the way.

Melo is on the team and not listening to what the coach or Phil is saying. They say Melo stop holding he ball so much, Melo gets the ball and holds it too much. They say Melo get back on D and move your feet. Melo dogs it back on D and makes weak efforts to move his feet. They say Melo help out the kids a bit by passing more...

I mean at a certain point I can understand Phil getting pissed off and saying to himself this MF'er. We may not agree with what Phil did but I can totally understand how he's looking at Melo squatting squarely in the middle of the floor and not buying in but taking most of the shots and touches. How long do you think anyone would want to sit and watch that CRAP as the team loses and the young players never get a chance to grow???

For this franchise to truly move forward Melo has to go!!! They can't win with him and might as well lose without him and his BS. Can anyone defending Melo really say that he's GOOD for the New York Knicks???

Look Melo holds the ball too much. No one disagrees with that, but if you are a star offensive player, you are going to hold the ball more than other players. That is just how it is. Our problem was (1) Rose never passed except as a last resort and he refused to commit to taking 3s, which harmed the spacing; (2) neither rose or jennings were consistent on defense or in anyway led the offense, (3) Willy and KP were average at best on defense and Willy is not a shot blocker; (4) Lance Thomas being hurt most of the season meant we lost our best defender (we probably would have won 6-8 more games if Lance had been healthy). Melo's bad defense was also a problem, and Melo did not trust the offense to create easier shots for himself, but I just don't see Melo as the main problem with the team, and I don't know who is going to score next year without Melo drawing attention.

Minus Melo you can see the ACTUAL OFFENSE as it's supposed to work. It doesn't mean we don't need more scoring talent but we MOST DEFINITELY don't NEED Melo. This team can move on without Melo and be just fine.

Watch these game highlights and you'll notice the Knicks function without the ball stopping all the time. They just need more talent and development of course, but you can see that this team can in fact function without Melo!!!

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:Phil agreed to allow Jeff to run his system and the Knicks were winning, why then is Phil speaking out against Melo and the team which hindered their success??..That's why the players are pissed..That's why KP is pissed...

Phil making comments isn't why the team lost games! I mean come on man. If that's all it took to shake up the team then it was never going to work anyway. Some words is what you think took down the Knicks this year???

KP was HAPPY that the Knicks went with more Triangle!!! MOST of the team is just fine with the offense the Knicks run. The problem isn't the Knicks running a little more Triangle action. The problem is that Phil doesn't want Melo on the team anymore. Melo is not a good presence on this team. Melo doesn't fit with the kind of Ball the Knicks want to play.
PHIL gets to decide how the Knicks are going to play and not Melo or KP or any player.

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Phil agreed to allow Jeff to run his system and the Knicks were winning, why then is Phil speaking out against Melo and the team which hindered their success??..That's why the players are pissed..That's why KP is pissed...That's why Hornacek isn't respected..

They didn't respect Hornacek from the word go- they were complaining about him back in preseason.

And here's my issue- they are focusing on Phil's short comings and blaming him- what about their short comings? Why don't they tear into themselves personally for not playing a lick of defense? Did Phil make them hoist up bad shots? Did Phil make them not run out to 3 pointers? The bottom line is we failed this year because they played badly- they wouldn't defend. That's it! Now they can cry about Phil distracting them all they want, but they didn't play defense from the first game in preseason onwards- and that is a fact.

Oddly, Phil is responsible for all the players on this roster.

Should Phil be shocked that Rose can't play defense, can't shoot threes and had another season ending knee surgery?

Should Phil be shocked that Joakim Noah got hurt, that at age 31 could only play 46 games after the previous season playing only 29?

I think Phil's inexperience as a FO executive is showing. Great coach, but not sure that he shows any promise of getting things right.

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think Melo, KP, BJ and Lee wants Hornacek to coach his offense and run the team...Noah is loyal to Phil and Rose just doesn't care about anything but getting his next contract...I think Rose told Phil he doesn't have a problem running the triangle in his exit interviews...Phil said he was surprised that Rose said he wants to be back...Rose will ally with Noah in Phil's camp...Phil actually seems smittened by Rose at the press conference..Rose got what he wanted, Phil speaking nicely about him and that will drive his price up in free agency to other suitors...

The Rookies don't care and are just trying to make the team...

This is probably true but KP was the one that came out vociferously in favor of using more Triangle. No one made KP say that he LIKES the Triangle. We can understand that BJ didn't like the Triangle, never understood it and never ran it. I think CLee eventually came around and you could see his game expanding later in the year. CLee was more active coming off Curls and used his dribble penetration much more aggressively. He looked like he had finally got the hang of things.

Melo mostly posts up in a Pinch Post situation so I don't know why he'd even complain about the Triangle. His game would actually fit in perfectly except that he stopped the ball. If Melo took more of what the offense gave him rather than forcing things he'd be a much better team player. Just keep the ball moving and use more of the motion to get more catch and shoot looks. Go quicker rather than always stopping the action.

I think you are looking at it all wrong...The point wasn't that KP endorsed the triangle, he is asking for consistency...Phil offered the job to Hornacek with the understanding that Hornacek will run his system and tenets of the triangle..Phil changed his mind and switch to triangle only in season...It caused confusion among the players..Let's face it, Hornacek is weak and will do whatever Phil says...The team started winning and Phil wanted his way...Which is running the triangle fully...Hornacek folded and the players who supported him wasn't happy...Melo at that time said Hornacek should have kept his system..Then the posse thing erupted around that time, Melo took a shot at Phil saying he didn't understand what Phil was saying..

The meeting of Nov 20th was to re emphasis Hornacek style of play which Phil said nothing and accepted or so it seemed..The players said Phil took it well...Then Phil targeted Melo as being the guy that wasn't buying in and holding the ball during the Knicks mini-hot streak...Then the CBS news story and the Rosen hit job followed by Phil's writer in LA..It was all BS...That's where Phil lost KP..Phil is dirty and plays dirty...Noah doesn't care because no one else would have given him that contract...Rose wants to get overpaid too and tells Phil he wants to return to the triangle...Phil is looking for players in his corner...

So in my opinion, KP wanted consistency not necessarily the triangle...He was saying if that was the system, Phil should have been open about his intentions from the start...Which he wasn't...

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think Melo, KP, BJ and Lee wants Hornacek to coach his offense and run the team...Noah is loyal to Phil and Rose just doesn't care about anything but getting his next contract...I think Rose told Phil he doesn't have a problem running the triangle in his exit interviews...Phil said he was surprised that Rose said he wants to be back...Rose will ally with Noah in Phil's camp...Phil actually seems smittened by Rose at the press conference..Rose got what he wanted, Phil speaking nicely about him and that will drive his price up in free agency to other suitors...

The Rookies don't care and are just trying to make the team...

This is probably true but KP was the one that came out vociferously in favor of using more Triangle. No one made KP say that he LIKES the Triangle. We can understand that BJ didn't like the Triangle, never understood it and never ran it. I think CLee eventually came around and you could see his game expanding later in the year. CLee was more active coming off Curls and used his dribble penetration much more aggressively. He looked like he had finally got the hang of things.

Melo mostly posts up in a Pinch Post situation so I don't know why he'd even complain about the Triangle. His game would actually fit in perfectly except that he stopped the ball. If Melo took more of what the offense gave him rather than forcing things he'd be a much better team player. Just keep the ball moving and use more of the motion to get more catch and shoot looks. Go quicker rather than always stopping the action.

I think you are looking at it all wrong...The point wasn't that KP endorsed the triangle, he is asking for consistency...Phil offered the job to Hornacek with the understanding that Hornacek will run his system and tenets of the triangle..Phil changed his mind and switch to triangle only in season...It caused confusion among the players..Let's face it, Hornacek is weak and will do whatever Phil says...The team started winning and Phil wanted his way...Which is running the triangle fully...Hornacek folded and the players who supported him wasn't happy...Melo at that time said Hornacek should have kept his system..Then the posse thing erupted around that time, Melo took a shot at Phil saying he didn't understand what Phil was saying..

The meeting of Nov 20th was to re emphasis Hornacek style of play which Phil said nothing and accepted or so it seemed..The players said Phil took it well...Then Phil targeted Melo as being the guy that wasn't buying in and holding the ball during the Knicks mini-hot streak...Then the CBS news story and the Rosen hit job followed by Phil's writer in LA..It was all BS...That's where Phil lost KP..Phil is dirty and plays dirty...Noah doesn't care because no one else would have given him that contract...Rose wants to get overpaid too and tells Phil he wants to return to the triangle...Phil is looking for players in his corner...

So in my opinion, KP wanted consistency not necessarily the triangle...He was saying if that was the system, Phil should have been open about his intentions from the start...Which he wasn't...

OK just so we're clear the Knicks only worked on more Triangle Fundamentals but NEVER Trashed Jeff's Offense completely. In fact if you go watch the games after the move to reinstall some Triangle you will notice that it NEVER got to 100% Pure Triangle. This is just not True!

KP and the kids went on to really learn and grasp Jeff's version of the Triangle!!! It's actually pretty good stuff and Phil approves! I don't think the Media or some fans realize what the Knicks have been running on Offense.