holfresh wrote:

Chandler wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's pretty hard to take a guy seriously who thought LeBron would be an average player..Outside of hearing what Phil really thinks, his readings is of little value...

and yet I would prefer to read a thousand of his posts over one of yours

Let me know when you become a must read...

I don't pretend to be, and I don't post on a thread simply to stir up ****

if you thought Rosen said something wrong then say so and explain, but to categorically say Rosen's writings are of little value is simply trolling

Trading for Derrick Rose on an expiring contract was a modest gamble.

I call BS on this. It was not a modest gamble because it traded away Lopez, who was effective on a modest contract, snowballing into signing Noah, which was IMO an unmitigated disaster for $17m per year, complete dead weight, salary black hole. We got ZERO production for that $17m and look forward to 3 more years of the same. Moneyball nightmare.

Panos wrote:

Trading for Derrick Rose on an expiring contract was a modest gamble.

I call BS on this. It was not a modest gamble because it traded away Lopez, who was effective on a modest contract, snowballing into signing Noah, which was IMO an unmitigated disaster for $17m per year, complete dead weight, salary black hole. We got ZERO production for that $17m and look forward to 3 more years of the same. Moneyball nightmare.

Yes, and we gave up on Jerian Grant early, who we gave away Tim Hardaway to get. The trade backfired badly. The Noah signing will have negative impact that outlasts Phil's deal.

holfresh wrote:

Chandler wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Chandler wrote:

holfresh wrote:It's pretty hard to take a guy seriously who thought LeBron would be an average player..Outside of hearing what Phil really thinks, his readings is of little value...

and yet I would prefer to read a thousand of his posts over one of yours

Let me know when you become a must read...

I don't pretend to be, and I don't post on a thread simply to stir up ****

if you thought Rosen said something wrong then say so and explain, but to categorically say Rosen's writings are of little value is simply trolling

Who the F are you to tell people how they should present their opinions??..And I'm surely not trying to stir anything, why would anyone outside of yourself care what I think of Rosen...

And my LeBron explanation does not pass your mustard as a suitable contribution??..Wow..

Don't pretend: What's the intent of your post , when the effect of which is to imply that everyone posting on the thread is effectively an idiot for even reading Rosen?

It's classic troll. I apologize for responding and giving you the attention you crave.

Don't believe anything holfresh says, he thought Isiah was a good GM. That passes mustard for a contribution?

Chandler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.

But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.

In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!

Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.

$30m in cap space two years in a row isn't enough to get any Triangle players who are keepers? If he let Melo walk he would've had $55m in cap space in 2015.

this is hindsight. At the time, Melo was clearly the best option. He needed an elite player and that was the only guy he could get. If you're going to fault Phil on this it should be that he was overly optimistic in thinking Melo would play defense and pass. There are things to criticize Phil for but this to me is revisionism

I agree signing Melo was only real option. And one of his failures is not being able to sell Melo on the Triangle... and of course that's partially on Melo, too.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/lazenby/status/852575787559653376

BUT - to me it is inarguable that he failed with his stated goal of bringing in "Triangle" players in free agency. He thought he could convince LaMarcus Aldridge or even Greg Monroe, but couldn't get anyone worth keeping over two years with $30M each year. Courtney Lee is the only keeper he has brought in Free Agency. $60M in cap space over two years - almost $200M in long term deals given out to Afflalo, DWill, Rolo, Jennings, Noah, and Lee and CLee is the only keeper and he's 31, has called the coaching staff "Dumb and Dumber" and said the team this year was "beyond pep talks"... I like CLee, but he's clearly miserable here. I sort of assume he'll ask for a trade this off-season.

I agree re FA, But in his defense I think it's more complicated than simply Phil failed. The old and new CBA are horrible. If you're an established winning team it's great. If you suck and are trying to improve the CBA stacks the odds against you. Salary cap in short says how much talent can you get for X dollars. First, the best players are going to get max contracts and be the best value. They'll cost 25 million but be worth 40 (see Kawhi, Lebron, etc.). They'll get that money where ever they go. What would incentivize them to go to a rebuilding franchise? What extra incentive do they get to go to NY w higher taxes or cost of living. It's tough a hurdle to get over. You take a look around the league. Market will set a price on a player - whatever that number is let's say 10mill/year. That player will opt for the winning franchise over the rebuilding. Sometimes they'll even play for less.

I thought Phil tried to deal with this, trying to get players who WANTED to be in NY -- guys like Melo, Noah, O'Quinn, Brandon etc.

He failed in getting the talented FAs we need, but no worse so than many others. And FWIW I thought his 11 rings as coach, 2 as a player, might attract folks. If it did, it was marginal. I also wonder why Mills gets a free pass on this. He's the GM, and as far as I can tell his one supposed strength was his relationship with agents etc. Seems like he's been played

We need a Clarence Gaines for FAs

Mills has been around the Garden off and on for almost all of Dolan's tenure. I have no idea what he does. I don't really have faith in him as a GM.

Yeah, Free Agency is tough. Though it's fair to mention that the 2014-5 disaster season turned off a lot of free agents. A lot of them were said to not want to come to such a losing team or play the Triangle. Because those free agents know that one guy on the court can't really lead a team to contending unless it's a Lebron level guy. Would Free Agency have gone better if the Knicks hadn't gotten so little in return for JR, Shump, Tyson, etc? The team was something like 9-39 when they ditched JR and Shump, it's not like those guys were leading to wins in the Triangle.

There's been a big effort to get rid of guys who can't play the triangle, but so far Phil has been very spotty bringing in guys who get the Triangle. Including coaches. We're left with a bunch of D-league guys who play their asses off because they know if they fail or look bad here there's a good chance they won't get another shot in the NBA. Just good enough to not get a top five pick.

newyorknewyork wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.

But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.

In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!

Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.

$30m in cap space two years in a row isn't enough to get any Triangle players who are keepers? If he let Melo walk he would've had $55m in cap space in 2015.

Even with 30mil in space Affalo was the best available for us after Butler, Middleton, Khaih etc resigned. Having cap space in today's age only matters if you have a contender.

Yes, I think that's true. I honestly don't think Phil understood that though. Maybe he does now?

crzymdups wrote:

Panos wrote:

Trading for Derrick Rose on an expiring contract was a modest gamble.

I call BS on this. It was not a modest gamble because it traded away Lopez, who was effective on a modest contract, snowballing into signing Noah, which was IMO an unmitigated disaster for $17m per year, complete dead weight, salary black hole. We got ZERO production for that $17m and look forward to 3 more years of the same. Moneyball nightmare.

Yes, and we gave up on Jerian Grant early, who we gave away Tim Hardaway to get. The trade backfired badly. The Noah signing will have negative impact that outlasts Phil's deal.

Still a modest gamble. Added Holiday and a 2nd round pick in this draft. So it depends on what will be acquired with the 20+mil in cap space. Who is drafted with the 2nd rounder and if Holiday sticks.

Panos wrote:

However, the Knicks' fortunes could definitely improve next season. That's because with Lee, Hernangomez, a stronger Porzingis, a healthier Lance Thomas, a valuable backup center in Kyle O'Quinn, and the continued development of Ron Baker, Mindaugas Kuzminskas, and Maurice Ndour, plus plenty of salary cap money available and a high first-round pick, the potential grounds for the first real steps on the team's return to glory are already in place.

How does he say this like a Melo trade is a done deal? Didn't he just finish talking about Melo's NTC? Mélo has not once said he was waiving it.

That being said your quote implies upside, hope, hedging risk.... things that cant be discussed.

People have cried for lottery talent for years. Guess what. Here comes some lottery talent

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!

Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis

If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play

If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor

Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.

don't forget to double down on Rambis. That usually is soothing to you.

Wait, I don't understand - so you think Rambis has done a good job? Or wait, we shouldn't question him at all because it's all Melo? Do you have a point?

I don't blame Rambis, not applaud him.
if you read me I am about 60-70% complimentary of melo and think he has held his bargain with the exception of not buying into the system he said he would. For that, I don't blame Phil as most haters do.
Melo said he was down with the system. Why would he resign and offer his allegence to phil and the triangle?
I fail at what is sarcasm in my written tone so it gets picked up as an argument. I find Rambis bashing funny because he has been a successful assistant and player under Phil, but because he is loyal to him he must be incompetent. Seems like we give coaching a pass and blame PHil for any confusion or mistakes by them. Of course they get all the credit for Willy, KP, Kuz, Ron, Etc etc.........
many thought Rambis was defacto coach to replace fish and have dreamt that Dolan directed him to not hire him. That's some funny stuff. Phil hate runs deep and makes some creative!!

crzymdups wrote:

Zebo13 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.

But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.

In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!

That's just something we have to deal with when our team plays in the Mecca. The biggest brightest city in the world! Quite literally, comes with the territory.

But honestly, where does this idea come from? Do you hear any guy here say they need to get another star next year? We all want to rebuild through the draft at this point. I think the fans would be happy to rebuild through the draft. Every single year Knicks fans overrate their rookies! It's a tradition. I think really it's more like they need a name to blame. Marbury. Amar'e. Melo. Allan Houston. Did those guys sell seats or get blamed for being overpaid and the team not defending? I guess it's win win for Mister Dolan.

But I really think that fans would be quite alright with a rebuild.

Well us internet and cable TV fans aren't exactly keeping the lights on. It's ticket sales and TV deals that pay the bills. I think the standard fan just hopes they win each game without looking toward the future.

crzymdups wrote:

Zebo13 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.

But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.

In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!

That's just something we have to deal with when our team plays in the Mecca. The biggest brightest city in the world! Quite literally, comes with the territory.

But honestly, where does this idea come from? Do you hear any guy here say they need to get another star next year? We all want to rebuild through the draft at this point. I think the fans would be happy to rebuild through the draft. Every single year Knicks fans overrate their rookies! It's a tradition. I think really it's more like they need a name to blame. Marbury. Amar'e. Melo. Allan Houston. Did those guys sell seats or get blamed for being overpaid and the team not defending? I guess it's win win for Mister Dolan.

But I really think that fans would be quite alright with a rebuild.

media bashes Phil when he failed to sign a marquee player. I think most of us at the UK don't agree with the Starphuch but there are those that long for a savior. Who wouldn't!
I devoted much time to my "MOoBy" worship campaign and the "Coming Home" hype on top of jersey sales really does depict a truth about hero worship and the starphuch.
I'd say many were against the trade because of the assets spent to get him.

Most of us are ok with a rebuild. But we are not typical.