LivingLegend wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Dennis Rodman also said Lebron was a b*tch.

He might not be the best source to ask about today's players.

Was he wrong on Lebron?

LOL. Lebron is inarguably one of the top three basketball players ever to play the game. Full stop. Call him whatever you want.

Rodman is a sad narcissist who dresses in drag, pals around with North Korean dictators, gives got takes to ESPN... whatever it takes to get attention. To consider his opinion on anything meaningful is to play yourself.

crzymdups wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Dennis Rodman also said Lebron was a b*tch.

He might not be the best source to ask about today's players.

Was he wrong on Lebron?

LOL. Lebron is inarguably one of the top three basketball players ever to play the game. Full stop. Call him whatever you want.

Rodman is a sad narcissist who dresses in drag, pals around with North Korean dictators, gives got takes to ESPN... whatever it takes to get attention. To consider his opinion on anything meaningful is to play yourself.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Dennis Rodman also said Lebron was a b*tch.

He might not be the best source to ask about today's players.

Was he wrong on Lebron?

LOL. Lebron is inarguably one of the top three basketball players ever to play the game. Full stop. Call him whatever you want.

Rodman is a sad narcissist who dresses in drag, pals around with North Korean dictators, gives got takes to ESPN... whatever it takes to get attention. To consider his opinion on anything meaningful is to play yourself.

yes rodman is a weirdo no argument there BUT he does have a impressive nba career and rings

Cocaine is a hell of a drug. So i guess we should get ready for Lamar Odom coming out for Phil. Do you guys read what you post? A complete looney comes out and you say yeah but he was a good baskwtball player. You do know he has been drunk/high since the 90's.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Dennis Rodman also said Lebron was a b*tch.

He might not be the best source to ask about today's players.

Was he wrong on Lebron?

LOL. Lebron is inarguably one of the top three basketball players ever to play the game. Full stop. Call him whatever you want.

Rodman is a sad narcissist who dresses in drag, pals around with North Korean dictators, gives got takes to ESPN... whatever it takes to get attention. To consider his opinion on anything meaningful is to play yourself.

yes rodman is a weirdo no argument there BUT he does have a impressive nba career and rings

Cocaine is a hell of a drug. So i guess we should get ready for Lamar Odom coming out for Phil. Do you guys read what you post? A complete looney comes out and you say yeah but he was a good baskwtball player. You do know he has been drunk/high since the 90's.

You forgot to mention the 54 win season.

And you forgot to mention the Gaines pick.

When he said "makes you a man first" it was Phil who did not try to have Rodman conform to a rigid standard. Phil has a history of bringing strong individuals together.
Ok, you won't read his books, but then don't pretend you understand Phil and his decisions.

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Really, I offer you guys the reason why Rodman said what he did and since it won't fit your agenda, its not at all relevant?
Rodman is a nutjob, but he has 5 rings and was a major role player on all those teams. He played with a high motor and deep understanding of what Defense, rebounding and ball movement meant.

When he said "makes you a man first" it was Phil who did not try to have Rodman conform to a rigid standard. Phil has a history of bringing strong individuals together.
Ok, you won't read his books, but then don't pretend you understand Phil and his decisions.

Philistine! Its about results. Said a few days ago that how Phil leaves the team (from top to bottom) will determine his legacy. Doesn't mean he skates on his record. Some of it franchise setting, and not in a good way.

Sounds all a bit too messianic considering how bad the Knicks have been under his watch, for years now. Nothing Phil wrote in his book changes that. The only thing that changes anything is winning.

The Knicks have been bad but they were bad even before his watch. I don't expect many mistakes from here on out. I don't think you guys are seeing what he is doing you want to win I get it but the end is not going to be a championship. It's just going to be winning with nothing to show for it. Give Phil a chance to build he knows what he needs better than we give him credit for. Phil will change the culture here. He is trying to find that true star players he already did well with KP I feel he will do well again in the draft and create that foundation that take the franchise in a direction to win with purpose.

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Really, I offer you guys the reason why Rodman said what he did and since it won't fit your agenda, its not at all relevant?
Rodman is a nutjob, but he has 5 rings and was a major role player on all those teams. He played with a high motor and deep understanding of what Defense, rebounding and ball movement meant.

When he said "makes you a man first" it was Phil who did not try to have Rodman conform to a rigid standard. Phil has a history of bringing strong individuals together.
Ok, you won't read his books, but then don't pretend you understand Phil and his decisions.

Philistine! Its about results. Said a few days ago that how Phil leaves the team (from top to bottom) will determine his legacy. Doesn't mean he skates on his record. Some of it franchise setting, and not in a good way.

Sounds all a bit too messianic considering how bad the Knicks have been under his watch, for years now. Nothing Phil wrote in his book changes that. The only thing that changes anything is winning.

Excuse me but get your facts straight. Phil inherited what should have been a playoff team from the remnants of what he inherited. Instead the team sucked and Phil did what was necessary to clean house (not necessarily build a winning roster). This past year I think he tried again to fulfill his obligation to win with Melo and got players who were both willing to come here and whose pedigree was a winning one. Even Thibideau, who many Knicks fans wanted as coach, liked the moves. And it should be noted that, all things considered, Phil took a logically defensible risk in landing Rose and Noah. Had Rose worked out, the Knicks would have solved their PG woes for a few years and if Noah could stay whole, he would have a player whose attitude is contagious and who actually catches and passes the ball so as to make his teammates better. Jennings was additional insurance.

That combination of veterans, like Melo, blew off playing within the system and the team sucked. Does Phil "own" this? Well, yes, because he tried to work with Melo again and in doing so wasted yet another year pandering to Melo. Mid-season the gloves came off and Melo played politics instead of basketball.

What is obvious when the rooks play is that Rambis has taught effective defense, that Horny is a decent coach, and that the triangle HAS worked even while being sabotaged.

IMO, if Melo can't be traded he should simply be cut or bought out. He's a cancer.

As for Phil, he needs a three year extension on his contract for having to put up with the Melo dream nightmare.

Just name some moves other than maxing out Melo and giving him an NTC, you believe Phil made that were a mistake since becoming president. No one is perfect, lets hear it, because Im not going to get into a conversation with another groupie.

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Really, I offer you guys the reason why Rodman said what he did and since it won't fit your agenda, its not at all relevant?
Rodman is a nutjob, but he has 5 rings and was a major role player on all those teams. He played with a high motor and deep understanding of what Defense, rebounding and ball movement meant.

When he said "makes you a man first" it was Phil who did not try to have Rodman conform to a rigid standard. Phil has a history of bringing strong individuals together.
Ok, you won't read his books, but then don't pretend you understand Phil and his decisions.

Philistine! Its about results. Said a few days ago that how Phil leaves the team (from top to bottom) will determine his legacy. Doesn't mean he skates on his record. Some of it franchise setting, and not in a good way.

Sounds all a bit too messianic considering how bad the Knicks have been under his watch, for years now. Nothing Phil wrote in his book changes that. The only thing that changes anything is winning.

Excuse me but get your facts straight. Phil inherited what should have been a playoff team from the remnants of what he inherited. Instead the team sucked and Phil did what was necessary to clean house (not necessarily build a winning roster). This past year I think he tried again to fulfill his obligation to win with Melo and got players who were both willing to come here and whose pedigree was a winning one. Even Thibideau, who many Knicks fans wanted as coach, liked the moves. And it should be noted that, all things considered, Phil took a logically defensible risk in landing Rose and Noah. Had Rose worked out, the Knicks would have solved their PG woes for a few years and if Noah could stay whole, he would have a player whose attitude is contagious and who actually catches and passes the ball so as to make his teammates better. Jennings was additional insurance.

That combination of veterans, like Melo, blew off playing within the system and the team sucked. Does Phil "own" this? Well, yes, because he tried to work with Melo again and in doing so wasted yet another year pandering to Melo. Mid-season the gloves came off and Melo played politics instead of basketball.

What is obvious when the rooks play is that Rambis has taught effective defense, that Horny is a decent coach, and that the triangle HAS worked even while being sabotaged.

IMO, if Melo can't be traded he should simply be cut or bought out. He's a cancer.

As for Phil, he needs a three year extension on his contract for having to put up with the Melo dream nightmare.

Just name some moves other than maxing out Melo and giving him an NTC, you believe Phil made that were a mistake since becoming president. No one is perfect, lets hear it, because Im not going to get into a conversation with another groupie.

Phil is far from perfect.

I think one of his flaws is being way too loyal to his players and his word. For example when he traded JR and Shumpert, he was doing them a solid and just as the saying goes, "no good deed goes unpunished". Lebron strutted around like he was the one who negotiated the steal of the century. JR and Shumpert went on to sh@t on the Knicks. Phil walked away with a modest trade.

The same can be said for his loyalty to Melo. He kept JR around past his shelf-life. He put up with Melo's impunity and more recently, he did not say to Horny, "Hey, bench Melo and Rose so deep on the bench that they're sitting behind the towel-wavers. Not another minute of playing time. Zero." Because IMO that's exactly what he should have done at the trade deadline and we'd be looking at the playoffs.

I think one of his player miscalculations was not signing Alexy Schved. This was done, of course, to honor his commitment to Melo to have as much FA pocket change as he could for signings. Schved was a unicorn we dropped the ball on. Assuming he was signed and stayed healthy we wouldn't be talking about Rose and Noah.

I felt the same way about Galloway and King Cole. All players with heart who played the game right but they weren't Melo-ballers so we are where we are.

IMO, Phil needs to quit F'n around with trying to make a baller out of Melo and MOVE ON.

GustavBahler wrote:Saying negative things about Melo in the media, (directly or passive aggressively) tweeting, only made it harder to find him a trade partner. These things should make you just as upset as anything Melo has or hasn't done as a Knick since re-upping. For whatever faults Melo may have, it comes down to Phil calling the shots, thats where most of your ire should be directed. One player out of 12.

Saying negative things about Melo in the press hurts Melo's perception of his "brand", which is what makes Melo react. Clearly team basketball and winning and being a leader don't move him.

What makes Melo hard to trade is his limited number of teams he'd waive his NTC for, his age, his selfish style of play where he's a complicated fit.

DOING NOTHING ensures Melo is here for two years, shot jacking away, not a care in the world because he wants to sell cologne, or shoes, or handbags, or whatever else his bull**** branding loving heart desires.

Going after Melo in the press IS THE RIGHT DECISION TO GET HIM TO WAIVE HIS NTC

Either

A) At all
or
B) To open it up to more teams on the list he'd waive it for

Getting Melo OFF THE ROSTER IS THE RIGHT MOVE FOR THE KNICKS FRANCHISE AND IT'S FUTURE

Fair or unfair, well so what. I think Melo's behavior is actually unfair. He could play team ball. He won't. He could act like a leader. He won't. He could play defense. He won't. What I feel about it doesn't matter.

Fair or unfair, going after him in the press will make it easier to get him off the roster. Clearly losing doesn't bother him all that much. He's just about said so in the press many times.

I KEEP HEARING THIS SAME NARRATIVE OVER AND OVER. Jackson is killing Melo's trade value. As if.

When a team wants a player gone, they go after him in the press.

When a player wants to be cut or traded, he goes after the team in the press.

It's how it works. You think if Dallas held onto Tony Romo any longer, that he wouldn't go to the press?

Please cite any example in modern sports history where a team executive was killing a player trade value just on words alone? I can find more examples of players whose trade value was crap BECAUSE AGE/INJURY/COST/CHEMISTRY all were bigger factors.

Why don't we just cut to the bone here. There are some dudes on this forum who clearly have 2-3 different posting accounts. I guess...

And some dudes here are clearly Melo's cousins or hangers on or work for CAA or Dolan or whatever. I guess... Maybe LaLa has a cousin somewhere she sends to go Pro Melo here....

The NBA marketplace doesn't care. The MARKET corrects ITSELF. Melo's trade value is a product of push/pull from current market forces upon how NBA personnel move and their value to the current style of play and league trends. That's it. Love a player, hate a player, that's it. People can argue all day over why the Lakers picked Kobe over Shaq in their stupid feud. Kobe was younger. That's it. Market forces at work.

Melos trade value is tanked

For some things out of his control - His age. Not like he can stop aging. His salary and NTC, it's not like he put a gun to anyone's head to give him that ridiculous contract.

For some things in his control - He's a ball stopping selfish shotjacker who won't play defense, doesn't care about his conditioning and is a coach killing baby. He also doesn't help in the pivot and wing, two critical areas needed by teams needed to contend.

Yes, feel free to keep pushing a non market perspective on Melo's trade value. It might be a tiebreaker on things riding on a line but these issue are not built for tie breakers, he's an expensive and limited aging player who can control where he goes.

Uptown wrote:It doesn't fit the agenda the same way Pippen's comment didnt't fit the agenda...

Before Pippen moved to the booth and was picked up by Wasserman Group, IIRC, he was repped by Jimmy Sexton of Creative Artist Agency. This was after his first Bulls contract, which was a disaster because he didn't go the traditional agent route. Melo is repped by Leon Rose of CAA.

Not uncommon for CAA clients to say things for the betterment of other CAA clients. Adam Schefter, the NFL "insider" is a CAA client. He often pushes false free agency interest rumors to drive up the market for CAA repped players. Pretty standard fare here.

Point to note, if Jackson was also a Leon Rose client, this all would be an entirely different situation.

Either Jackson or Melo are going to be gone, I hope both, but clearly one or the other is going to lose this current power struggle.

TripleThreat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Saying negative things about Melo in the media, (directly or passive aggressively) tweeting, only made it harder to find him a trade partner. These things should make you just as upset as anything Melo has or hasn't done as a Knick since re-upping. For whatever faults Melo may have, it comes down to Phil calling the shots, thats where most of your ire should be directed. One player out of 12.

Saying negative things about Melo in the press hurts Melo's perception of his "brand", which is what makes Melo react. Clearly team basketball and winning and being a leader don't move him.

What makes Melo hard to trade is his limited number of teams he'd waive his NTC for, his age, his selfish style of play where he's a complicated fit.

DOING NOTHING ensures Melo is here for two years, shot jacking away, not a care in the world because he wants to sell cologne, or shoes, or handbags, or whatever else his bull**** branding loving heart desires.

Going after Melo in the press IS THE RIGHT DECISION TO GET HIM TO WAIVE HIS NTC

Either

A) At all
or
B) To open it up to more teams on the list he'd waive it for

Getting Melo OFF THE ROSTER IS THE RIGHT MOVE FOR THE KNICKS FRANCHISE AND IT'S FUTURE

Fair or unfair, well so what. I think Melo's behavior is actually unfair. He could play team ball. He won't. He could act like a leader. He won't. He could play defense. He won't. What I feel about it doesn't matter.

Fair or unfair, going after him in the press will make it easier to get him off the roster. Clearly losing doesn't bother him all that much. He's just about said so in the press many times.

I KEEP HEARING THIS SAME NARRATIVE OVER AND OVER. Jackson is killing Melo's trade value. As if.

When a team wants a player gone, they go after him in the press.

When a player wants to be cut or traded, he goes after the team in the press.

It's how it works. You think if Dallas held onto Tony Romo any longer, that he wouldn't go to the press?

Please cite any example in modern sports history where a team executive was killing a player trade value just on words alone? I can find more examples of players whose trade value was crap BECAUSE AGE/INJURY/COST/CHEMISTRY all were bigger factors.

Why don't we just cut to the bone here. There are some dudes on this forum who clearly have 2-3 different posting accounts. I guess...

And some dudes here are clearly Melo's cousins or hangers on or work for CAA or Dolan or whatever. I guess... Maybe LaLa has a cousin somewhere she sends to go Pro Melo here....

The NBA marketplace doesn't care. The MARKET corrects ITSELF. Melo's trade value is a product of push/pull from current market forces upon how NBA personnel move and their value to the current style of play and league trends. That's it. Love a player, hate a player, that's it. People can argue all day over why the Lakers picked Kobe over Shaq in their stupid feud. Kobe was younger. That's it. Market forces at work.

Melos trade value is tanked

For some things out of his control - His age. Not like he can stop aging. His salary and NTC, it's not like he put a gun to anyone's head to give him that ridiculous contract.

For some things in his control - He's a ball stopping selfish shotjacker who won't play defense, doesn't care about his conditioning and is a coach killing baby. He also doesn't help in the pivot and wing, two critical areas needed by teams needed to contend.

Yes, feel free to keep pushing a non market perspective on Melo's trade value. It might be a tiebreaker on things riding on a line but these issue are not built for tie breakers, he's an expensive and limited aging player who can control where he goes.

This is exactly correct. Words could never hurt or help a players talent value to a team. Melo is a well-known commodity and No one in the Knicks organization need say a word about his value.

Melo is a volume scorer based on volume possession. That's a good thing if that's what your team needs otherwise its not. He will not bring back very much in trade.