knicks1248 wrote:How about changing the defensive system and stop ignoring the 3 point line because its a 35% shot avg

The problem is that we're easily broken down which causes players to have to give help and that leads to a lot of late recovery back to shooters. What we need is better on ball D at the point of attack and more speed overall to be able to get back to shooters.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:How about changing the defensive system and stop ignoring the 3 point line because its a 35% shot avg

The problem is that we're easily broken down which causes players to have to give help and that leads to a lot of late recovery back to shooters. What we need is better on ball D at the point of attack and more speed overall to be able to get back to shooters.

your right, but you wont find that starting kp/willy..

nixluva wrote:

Kemet wrote:Hornacek wanna coach defense next season LOL .. make u think Horn were in on the TANKING from day one.
We showed no form of defense throughout this season .. one of the biggest reason why Noah n Jennings did not want to play for the the Knicks this season.

IMO you need defensive talent in addition to coaching. We don't have a lot of defensive talent and a lot of the younger players were still learning and making mistakes. This is no different than what Thibs is going thru with his younger players in Minnesota!!!

There's been some signs of progress but it's going to take more time and an influx of more defensive talent to make more progress. It's not just coaching.

We had defensive-players in Noah, Quinn, Lance, Lee, Holiday, and Jennings that could have been instrumental creating a defensive force in the rotation throughout the season .. if coached!!!

nixluva wrote:

Kemet wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Kemet wrote:Hornacek wanna coach defense next season LOL .. make u think Horn were in on the TANKING from day one.
We showed no form of defense throughout this season .. one of the biggest reason why Noah n Jennings did not want to play for the the Knicks this season.

IMO you need defensive talent in addition to coaching. We don't have a lot of defensive talent and a lot of the younger players were still learning and making mistakes. This is no different than what Thibs is going thru with his younger players in Minnesota!!!

There's been some signs of progress but it's going to take more time and an influx of more defensive talent to make more progress. It's not just coaching.

We had defensive-players in Noah, Quinn, Lance, Lee, Holiday, and Jennings that could have been instrumental creating a defensive force in the rotation throughout the season .. if coached!!!

Coaching had nothing to do with that. There are severe holes in our defense due to Melo and Rose in particular but others as well. The key is to plug those holes with better 2 Way Players. It's hard to quantify how much is talent and how much is coaching but suffice it to say that Thibs is perhaps the best defensive mind in the NBA and he's not exactly shutting teams down with his team in Minnesota.

Opponent Per Poss Stats FROM WORST TO BEST
Rk  Team	              G	  FG	FGA   FG%   3P	  3PA	3P%   2P	2PA	2P%▼	FT	FTA	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1   Los Angeles Lakers	      73  42.2	87.5  .482  10.4  28.0	.370  31.8	59.5	.535	18.7	24.6	.763	45.5	25.9	8.6	5.4	14.4	18.9	113.4
2   Minnesota Timberwolves    72  41.4	87.5  .473  10.2  28.1	.363  31.2	59.4	.526	18.2	23.8	.765	42.4	23.9	8.1	5.2	15.1	21.5	111.2
--
18  New York Knicks	      74  41.0	90.5  .453  10.0  28.8	.348  31.0	61.7	.502	19.4	25.2	.771	46.5	22.6	7.7	4.7	13.2	18.9	111.4
Best 3pt % Defense
Rk	Team	                G	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%▲	
1	Golden State Warriors*	73	17620	38.6	88.5	.436	9.1	27.8	.328	
2	Boston Celtics*	        74	17835	39.8	88.3	.451	9.2	27.8	.332	
3	San Antonio Spurs*	73	17620	38.6	87.5	.441	8.5	25.0	.340
4	Miami Heat	        73	17595	39.6	88.0	.450	8.1	23.6	.345
5	New Orleans Pelicans	74	17985	40.0	89.7	.446	10.5	30.3	.347
6	Houston Rockets*	73	17620	40.6	87.7	.463	10.0	28.7	.347	
7	New York Knicks	        74	17935	41.0	90.5	.453	10.0	28.8	.348
21	Minnesota Timberwolves	72	17405	41.4	87.5	.473	10.2	28.1	.363

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html

The Best Defensive Coach is not able to overcome his talent to the degree that his team is good defensively. Look at the what the Knicks give up defensively on 2pt % and they are actually #18th worst in the league whereas Minnesota is just 1 from the bottom of the league Lakers. They aren't doing better than the Knicks against 3pt shots either.

Our Knicks head coach has 70% to do with our poor defensive-effort .. Our 4 most played players this season are the Knicks poorest defensive-players on the roster, plus all 4 players are in the starter lineup ....
Rose / Lee / Melo / KP .... all 4 players has a problem running back on defense n defending, especially in the 2nd half of every game

newyorker4ever wrote:

Knixkik wrote:So who do you think become the most likely off-season targets?

I think Jrue Holiday will be a top focus. He plays both sides of the ball and play them well and can shoot and drive to the basket. He'd be a great addition along with keeping his brother. I know he has a injury history but he's too good when healthy to let that get in the way of getting him. We need guys who play hard on defense which will rub off on the guys that don't cause when they're on the court with other players that are playing hard on defense it'll make them try harder on D.

I also really like G.Hill who also play hard defense.

Why does everyone assume players give a damn to play on the same team with their brothers?

Paris907 wrote:Defensive ratings came out and of course Melo and Rose were as bad as we thought. Yet Lee was on there too. In addition to a Fox or Josh Jackson we need to trade either personnel Rose OQuinn for example and secure a later 1st rounder like John Collins, Justin Jackson, Thornwell - guy's who play D, are out of winning programs superior athletes and coachable

My dream scenario is we lockdown pick #4 and somehow convince the Kings to trade pick #7 and #9 for #4 and our 2nd rounders. Then the Knicks get Frank Ntilikina and Justin Jackson

nixluva wrote:

wargames wrote:

Paris907 wrote:Defensive ratings came out and of course Melo and Rose were as bad as we thought. Yet Lee was on there too. In addition to a Fox or Josh Jackson we need to trade either personnel Rose OQuinn for example and secure a later 1st rounder like John Collins, Justin Jackson, Thornwell - guy's who play D, are out of winning programs superior athletes and coachable

My dream scenario is we lockdown pick #4 and somehow convince the Kings to trade pick #7 and #9 for #4 and our 2nd rounders. Then the Knicks get Frank Ntilikina and Justin Jackson

Nice defensive picks. I agree with the approach you're taking. Gotta make sure we get strong defensive talent out of this draft.

Thanks the only way I would be against this is if while doing the work outs they identify somebody with star level talent like they did with KP.

If not then yeah they should go defense/Triangle friendly and both those players are the two most Triangle friend guys I see in the first round except for Josh Jackson

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:How about changing the defensive system and stop ignoring the 3 point line because its a 35% shot avg

The problem is that we're easily broken down which causes players to have to give help and that leads to a lot of late recovery back to shooters. What we need is better on ball D at the point of attack and more speed overall to be able to get back to shooters.

your right, but you wont find that starting kp/willy..

I actually think they will get better at defense as they learn how to properly defend and get stronger. KP and Willy will be more effective the more we upgrade the Perimeter defense and that should be a top goal. KP and KAT have the same defensive rating at 109. It takes time.

I thought (melo, Allan Houston, dirk,rose,Vince carter) defense would get better as they grew older and wiser. But it never happen. Their offense, shot selection and stamnia got better, definetly not their defense. What you do is put a bunch of defensive players around them and let them carry the offense.

Its like hoping mutumbo got better offensively, but it never did. To me, you are who you are when you come in the league..if your a offensive player, that what gets better, if your a defensive player, that's what you do..Did you ever think Tyson chandler would be a better offensive player?

So you don't think Karl Anthony Towns will improve defensively then??? I do believe that players have to have the talent to defend at a high level but you CAN improve your defense if you have the physical talent to do so, then you need to improve your technique and understanding of defensive schemes. There are actually things anyone can do to improve. Now if you're suggesting that they have to become GREAT defenders then perhaps that's asking way too much, but certainly KP and WIlly can improve in many areas.

The first things is simply getting stronger and more mature. Then next is experience and learning from playing different guys and what they do. Then you have technical things that anyone can improve on like getting low, learning the proper distance, how to contest without fouling, getting leverage to hold ground. It's really not as impossible as you make it sound.

KP and Willy are physically talented enough that they should be able to make improvement.

RSparrow2 wrote:

wargames wrote:

Paris907 wrote:Defensive ratings came out and of course Melo and Rose were as bad as we thought. Yet Lee was on there too. In addition to a Fox or Josh Jackson we need to trade either personnel Rose OQuinn for example and secure a later 1st rounder like John Collins, Justin Jackson, Thornwell - guy's who play D, are out of winning programs superior athletes and coachable

My dream scenario is we lockdown pick #4 and somehow convince the Kings to trade pick #7 and #9 for #4 and our 2nd rounders. Then the Knicks get Frank Ntilikina and Justin Jackson

Nice plan but how do you convince picks 1-6 to not take Jackson?

Are you thinking of JOSH Jackson?

OP is talking about JUSTIN Jackson.

90sKnicks wrote:Hornachek is a lot smarter than people give him credit for. Don't evaluate him based on this year's record. I hope he stays for the duration of Phil's contract and see what his coaching looks like after year 3

I'm in this camp too. and not to jinx things but I haven't written off Noah either