fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad

I agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.

If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).

It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.

What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.

Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?

Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)

Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)

Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.

Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.

Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.

I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.

I might have also taken Jennings.

Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad

I agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.

If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).

It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.

What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.

Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?

Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)

Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)

Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.

Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.

Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.

I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.

I might have also taken Jennings.

Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.

When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Lee is not an NBA starter. He's inconsistent and he'll be 32. Again we could've had Seth Curry for 4-5 mm or Lee for 13 not a brilliant choice by dr phil

Man, you may have a point but you take a lot away when you make up salary numbers. Lee is at $11M. Never in his contract will he make $13M

try here next time: http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/NYK.html

12mm avg or 13mm avg exactly what is the difference? 17 and 12mm are WAY WAY too much money spent on a mixed up plan and were stuck with it. TERRIBLE job Phil Jackson. No way was Phil trying to tank the season--he ll they wouldnt even play Randle yesterday 15-20 minutes after a good game--there more interested making D Rose more money from someone else.

i keep clicking briggs threads and i keep seeing the same ****. insanity, indeed.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad

I agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.

If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).

It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.

What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.

Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?

Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)

Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)

Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.

Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.

Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.

I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.

I might have also taken Jennings.

Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.

what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.

When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?

No - Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday are $50M this year vs. $27M for Lopez, Langston, Calderon & Grant.

I stay the course because I'm trying to build a cohesive team system based on the triangle - well, that is why Phil should have. What I've read, it takes players time in the system to actually grasp it. If we don't give our players time, what's the point?

How much of our roster gets turned over this summer, we're we can agree that it's basically been turned over every year Phil's been here?

He changes rosters like Briggs changes his mind!

I get that this franchise has suffered, trading first round picks and giving out contracts to marginal talent.

Phil has really only corrected 1. Noah was a gamble that was never going to pay off. Older player, injured. Wrong side of 30. 4 years!

Remember when Phoenix let Amare walk? They were smart. I want our franchise to be smart.

If Phil were 10 years younger, it might make sense. But what does he have left in the tank?

Who has he groomed to take over for him?

Pretty soon, they're going to take Rings off his fingers for any more losing seasons/bad deals, etc.

nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks have a plan to build, it's just not as obvious because they are hidden in the shadow of by an all-star scoring wing and a former MVP point guard.

Bucks don't have veteran stars on their team so their young players get full exposure to produce stats and be who they are. They have some good talent in Giannis, Parker (though injuries may derail his career) and Middleton. But they aren't even a playoff team despite these players right on the verge of their primes.

Knick have young talent like Porzingis, Hernangomez. They have some good pick ups like O'Quinn, Thomas, Randle and Baker who fit what they want to do as per system. The thing is so long as you have Melo and Rose, it's going to be hard to really see the young player's maximum potential. We saw some of that in the Magic game. We have young talent. Realize we also lost our lottery picks before Phil came to town. Lets go draft someone good in 2017 and lets trade Melo in the offseason for more young talent, and then compare with the Bucks next season. I'm willing to bet if we do that in a year we'll be happy where we are as a franchise vs other rebuilding teams.

These dudes are crazy inconsistent like every role player in the league, there a dime a dozen except for KP..

Willy and Kp starting is not a good look, they are not Athletic enough, quick enough, or smart enough. I don't see the Bucks GM/prez telling Kidd what system to run either

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad

I agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.

If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).

It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.

What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.

Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?

Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)

Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)

Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.

Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.

Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.

I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.

I might have also taken Jennings.

Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.

what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.

When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?

I stay the course because I'm trying to build a cohesive team system based on the triangle - well, that is why Phil should have. What I've read, it takes players time in the system to actually grasp it. If we don't give our players time, what's the point?

How much of our roster gets turned over this summer, we're we can agree that it's basically been turned over every year Phil's been here?

He changes rosters like Briggs changes his mind!

I get that this franchise has suffered, trading first round picks and giving out contracts to marginal talent.

Phil has really only corrected 1. Noah was a gamble that was never going to pay off. Older player, injured. Wrong side of 30. 4 years!

Remember when Phoenix let Amare walk? They were smart. I want our franchise to be smart.

If Phil were 10 years younger, it might make sense. But what does he have left in the tank?

Who has he groomed to take over for him?

Pretty soon, they're going to take Rings off his fingers for any more losing seasons/bad deals, etc.

No - Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday are $50M this year vs. $27M for Lopez, Langston, Calderon & Grant.

Who cares about the money? They are better players and who are the FAs they are stopping us from signing? Knicks dont have cap problems.

knicks1248 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks have a plan to build, it's just not as obvious because they are hidden in the shadow of by an all-star scoring wing and a former MVP point guard.

Bucks don't have veteran stars on their team so their young players get full exposure to produce stats and be who they are. They have some good talent in Giannis, Parker (though injuries may derail his career) and Middleton. But they aren't even a playoff team despite these players right on the verge of their primes.

Knick have young talent like Porzingis, Hernangomez. They have some good pick ups like O'Quinn, Thomas, Randle and Baker who fit what they want to do as per system. The thing is so long as you have Melo and Rose, it's going to be hard to really see the young player's maximum potential. We saw some of that in the Magic game. We have young talent. Realize we also lost our lottery picks before Phil came to town. Lets go draft someone good in 2017 and lets trade Melo in the offseason for more young talent, and then compare with the Bucks next season. I'm willing to bet if we do that in a year we'll be happy where we are as a franchise vs other rebuilding teams.

These dudes are crazy inconsistent like every role player in the league, there a dime a dozen except for KP..

Willy and Kp starting is not a good look, they are not Athletic enough, quick enough, or smart enough. I don't see the Bucks GM/prez telling Kidd what system to run either

Guys that have shown they can understand the Triangle are not a dime a dozen. We need MORE young players that are smart and team oriented. We're not losing because of our role players!!! We lose because we don't have the STAR players to lead the team to wins. KP is still developing but Melo and Rose simply aren't able to carry the team to wins like other top players on winning teams do. ie. they are not DeRozan and Lowry, Lebron and Kyrie...

The path forward is to continue to develop our young players and add STUDS from the Draft to eventually become the new core of this team. KP and Willy is a good start. I find it funny how people are so convinced that KP and Willy won't work when Willy is a damned ROOKIE and KP hasn't even come close to being developed yet. I marvel at the inability of many Knicks fans to know what the process of development of young talent looks like. There's simply ZERO patience with many in this fan base.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:This is a mess. We need help and direction. I watch this and I believe Phil is not the right guy
We have a few good players a bunch of inconsistent ones lack athletic ability we have a lot of role players/ back up types. This us scary-- we are bad

I agree. I'm not sure what Phil was thinking with his big deals over the summer. Was it rebuilding, was it giving melo one more shot with some veteran talent.

If so, he lost that gamble big time, possibly set the franchise back vs holding pat, building on what we had (Lopez, et al) and some of the nice small pieces he added (willy, Kuz, Randle).

It's a fair question. I see a bunch of role players and then a hodge podge of players that probably aren't going to be here long term. We want to move Melo, don't know who/why would want Rose back.

What's left? KP and a rag tag group of players that might honestly not be in the NBA were they not contributing on our sinking ship.

Let me ask you a simple question. If it WAS a straight up rebuild what would you do differently?

Knicks brought in:
Willy (22)
Kuz (27)
NDour (24)
Plumlee (24)
Baker (23)

Then when it was clear the season was shot we cut Jennings to look at Randle (23)

Knicks started the season with rookies on the roster and have added another. People assume rebuild means tank, and that you cant sign a player that fits a need. KOQ was not very good last year. Wily is a rookie. Noah is a system guy and ball mover and a high IQ player. You can see what Phil likes. Obviously it has not worked out as he's been a poor fit with our ball stoppers and he's been hurt... but I would love to know the expectation.

Briggs wants Seth Curry, but Seth is not a very good NBA player, and he's not as good as Lee. His agenda changes daily. Franco what would your offseason rebuild have looked like? The only young guy they gave up was Grant, who has been just as bad in Chi as he was in NY.

Just curious if you were running the team what would be different. Phil is clearly looking for guys that fit and that he can develop. 5 rookies and in a year where we didnt have a first rounder we have one of the best rookies in the NBA in Willy. That kid can really play.

I would have stayed the course - kept Calderon, Lopez, Grant, Langston. Willy, Kuz, Baker were great finds. Baker probably doesn't play if we have Langston.

I might have also taken Jennings.

Big difference is I would have fired Rambis and told Jeff to run whatever effing system he wanted.

what you suggest and what Phil did are not far about. Noah represents 1 year longer than Lopez and about $5mm more. Aside from that Randle and Baker replace Grant and Galloway got paid. Galloway was a nice hustle guy had and still has a ton of limitations.

When you say "stay the course" what is your goal? Why would you "stay the course" with a team that finished 12-30? Who left that team that you are really lamenting the loss of?

I stay the course because I'm trying to build a cohesive team system based on the triangle - well, that is why Phil should have. What I've read, it takes players time in the system to actually grasp it. If we don't give our players time, what's the point?

How much of our roster gets turned over this summer, we're we can agree that it's basically been turned over every year Phil's been here?

He changes rosters like Briggs changes his mind!

I get that this franchise has suffered, trading first round picks and giving out contracts to marginal talent.

Phil has really only corrected 1. Noah was a gamble that was never going to pay off. Older player, injured. Wrong side of 30. 4 years!

Remember when Phoenix let Amare walk? They were smart. I want our franchise to be smart.

If Phil were 10 years younger, it might make sense. But what does he have left in the tank?

Who has he groomed to take over for him?

Pretty soon, they're going to take Rings off his fingers for any more losing seasons/bad deals, etc.

your bold doesnt answer my question at all. If you goal is to a cohesive team which player did you want to keep? Jose? Grant? Lopez? What are their value in the goal you have stated? Jose wouldnt shoot, Grant couldnt and when Lopez was playing his best ball Knicks went 12-30. There isnt much evidence that points to staying the course accomplishing anything besides more mediocrity.

No - Noah, Lee, Rose & Holiday are $50M this year vs. $27M for Lopez, Langston, Calderon & Grant.

If anything those guys bring us closer to your goal. Noah has not been healthy, but Lee is exactly the kind of guy you want around for a few years if building triangle continuity is your goal. He's a great shooter, he defends, moves the ball and plays hard. He's very good and a nice rotation player for the next few years. If Noah can get a little healthy he's exactly the guy you want Willy/KP to play with. His intangibles exceed Lopez. Noah has plenty to prove before that is anything but a bad signing, I certainly admit that. However I can see the fit.

Who cares about the money? They are better players and who are the FAs they are stopping us from signing? Knicks dont have cap problems.

I keep all of them. Maybe Jose gets released, traded- I liked him last year.

I don't keep him past this season.

I look to develop Grant. Maybe my fault would be not knowing when it was time to cut bait with players. But I want to add, tweak grow. Not slash and burn.

Maybe both are valid ways of looking at what we need to do.