nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:This team is losing because they suck, not because of the offense they run. They don't play hard and refuse to play defense consistently. No leadership from the superstars on the team.

They didn't play hard against Toronto last night? It sure seemed like it.

But it's not really about one game now is it. In general the Knicks are -3.2 on the season with one of the worst defenses in the league. Last night they defended better but didn't score like they normally do.

The Knicks are not going to run a pure Triangle offense. Hornacek still does have input in how the team plays overall. He still calls plays but wants the team to be able to know what to get into if no play is called or they need to reset. There's nothing wrong with that.

The Knicks under Hornacek are middle of the league in 3 point attempts at about 26 a game. That would be better if Rose and BJ were good 3 PT shooters. Triangle doesn't mean you don't get fast breaks or take open 3's.

No, it's not about one game. It's about the Triangle. Read the article.

It's not about 3pt shots taken - it's about where you take them.

See bolded.

I've read the article before. Still doesn't address the fact that we played with Rose and BJ who are not 3 Point shooters! That's a huge issue. Also the Knicks are 15th in 3pt % at 36%. Rose n BJ aren't exactly helping that! Mostly Rose.

It's not about their shooting percentage. It's about guys shooting too many low value mid range jumpers. Not enough corner threes. Rose can get to the rim at will. That's a good skill and could be utilized better with a better offense. Say a pick and roll heavy offense with Willy Hernangomez setting picks and Melo, KP, and CLee shooting threes. We've never even seen them try that.

Knicks are getting corner 3's!!! They don't get enough 3's from Rose who is often wide open!!! Like I said the Knicks are not bad in terms of 3pt attempts or 3pt % but they would be better once they upgrade the talent at PG with better 3pt shooting. Derek Fisher LIVED off the corner 3! It's literally a staple of the Triangle for the PG! Rose doesn't do that.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:This team is losing because they suck, not because of the offense they run. They don't play hard and refuse to play defense consistently. No leadership from the superstars on the team.

They didn't play hard against Toronto last night? It sure seemed like it.

But it's not really about one game now is it. In general the Knicks are -3.2 on the season with one of the worst defenses in the league. Last night they defended better but didn't score like they normally do.

The Knicks are not going to run a pure Triangle offense. Hornacek still does have input in how the team plays overall. He still calls plays but wants the team to be able to know what to get into if no play is called or they need to reset. There's nothing wrong with that.

The Knicks under Hornacek are middle of the league in 3 point attempts at about 26 a game. That would be better if Rose and BJ were good 3 PT shooters. Triangle doesn't mean you don't get fast breaks or take open 3's.

Are justifying a offense that has result in 3 straight losing season despite 48 different players playing in it.

It's like your disregarding the fact that no in the NBA, College, overseas, d league, ymca, CBA, or anywhere on the basketball planet that is running this offense.

JH just said in his own words that they will be primarily running phil Jackson beloved triangle. Why are you in denial. Every single analysis, media outlet, coach and gm in the league has said the system is out dated, and WTF is phil doing.

You're assuming the losing is based on the Offense rather than the team's talent!!! Also there are still teams using Triangle about as much as they ever have. It's never been a predominant choice of offense. Aspects of it are used in the NBA LEAGUE WIDE!!! No one else in the NBA runs it as their full system.

The offense isn't the main problem for this team. The team needs to move away from a Melo Centric team build. This year was about Melo!!! The addition of vets was about Melo!!! This wasn't about KP or the future.

Now Phil has to start finding players that will compliment KP and Willy. It's about the future now.

CrushAlot wrote:

Shot Selection in the Knicks’ Triangle Offense
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By Stephen Shea, Ph.D.

The triangle offense has been incredibly successful in the NBA in the past. Phil Jackson famously implemented the triangle offense on championship teams in Chicago and Los Angeles. However, the NBA has changed significantly since Jackson last led a team to a title. Offenses now feature more perimeter shooters, and they station fewer bodies in the paint. They create more space for players to drive and cut down the lane. Today’s offenses are more influenced by analytics and have adapted to defensive rule changes. One has to wonder if the triangle offense will still be as successful as it once was.

The concern is shot selection.

We will analyze shots from six regions—the restricted area, the paint (but not the restricted area), mid-range, the left corner 3, the right corner 3, and the above-the-break 3. The league has the highest eFG% from the restricted area. The second highest eFG% is the corner 3. Not surprisingly then, many teams are striving to get more shots from those two high efficiency zones.

In contrast, the mid-range jump shot is the least efficient shot. Thus, teams are looking to take less shots from this area. That is, all teams follow this trend except the Knicks. The Knicks are getting .97 points from mid-range for every 1 point from the restricted area. That’s the highest such ratio in the NBA in 2015. In fact, it’s the most for any team in any season from 2009-10 through 2014-15.

Some might argue that we cannot evaluate the triangle offense based on these Knicks. These Knicks aren’t loaded with talent. One might suggest that we shouldn’t dismiss the offensive system just because these Knicks can’t make their shots. So, let’s try an experiment. Let’s create the Dream 2014-15 Knicks. These Dream Knicks will still take the same number of shots from each region as the 2014-15 Knicks. However, these Dream Knicks will shoot the league best % from each region. These Dream Knicks will finish around the hoop like Blake Griffin and the Clippers. They’ll knock down mid-range and above-the-break jumpers like the Splash Brothers and Golden State. We’ll even assume they shoot 52.6% from the right corner 3, which if it held for a full season, would be the highest corner 3 % for any team in the last 10 years. We gave the Dream Knicks the league’s best field goal % from every region and then recalculated their eFG%. How do these Griffin-dunking, splash brothers shooting Dream Knicks rank in eFG%? They still don’t have the best eFG% in the league. They still aren’t getting as many points per shot as this season’s Warriors or Clippers.

Maybe I’m being too negative. There is some good news here. Assuming the Knicks current shot selection, if the Knicks could shoot the league’s best % from each region, they would be an above average offense. I guess that’s one road map to success—build a backcourt that shoots like Steph Curry and Klay Thompson and a front court that finishes at the hoop like DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin. The Knicks could do that….or they could ditch the triangle.

Let’s try another experiment. Let’s leave the Knicks’ shooting percentages as they are. Let’s suppose the Knicks finish like these Knicks—a team often believed to be considerably short on talent. Let’s now suppose that they have Houston’s shot selection. Remember how the Knicks had the highest ratio of mid-range points to restricted area points in any of the last 6 seasons. Houston has the second lowest such ratio of the same time frame. They trail only last season’s Rockets. While the 2014-15 Knicks seem to design their offense around getting the mid-range (and least efficient) shot, Houston tries very hard to avoid them.

To be clear, the current Knicks are 23rd in the league in eFG% (at approximately 48.5). If we keep the same shooting percentages and only alter their shot selection to mimic the Houston Rockets, the Knicks eFG% jumps to 52.2, which would be good enough for 6th in the league and only slightly behind the Dream Knicks who would have an eFG% of 53.6.

So, the Knicks have at least two paths to an efficient offense. They can keep their current shot selection as generated largely through the triangle offense and assemble the greatest shooting roster of all time. Or, they could alter their offensive strategy to be more consistent with everything we’ve learned through basketball analytics.

(All stats are courtesy of NBA.com and are current through the January 25th games.)

http://www.basketballanalyticsbook.com/2015/01/27/shot-selection-in-the-knicks-triangle-offense/

All the talk that the triangle system can't work in todays NBA is ridiculous. If you have the right players and every players truly buys into the system it can absolutely work but we just haven't had a team with everyone buying into it yet. It can't be just 1 or 2 of the 5 on the court that are actually trying to play the triangle or it obviously isn't gonna work and they'll look like clowns on the floor which is how they've mostly looked. I just hope that whoever is on this team next year believes in the triangle and will take coaching from Hornacek and not ignore what he's telling you to do.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

EnySpree wrote:This team is losing because they suck, not because of the offense they run. They don't play hard and refuse to play defense consistently. No leadership from the superstars on the team.

They didn't play hard against Toronto last night? It sure seemed like it.

But it's not really about one game now is it. In general the Knicks are -3.2 on the season with one of the worst defenses in the league. Last night they defended better but didn't score like they normally do.

The Knicks are not going to run a pure Triangle offense. Hornacek still does have input in how the team plays overall. He still calls plays but wants the team to be able to know what to get into if no play is called or they need to reset. There's nothing wrong with that.

The Knicks under Hornacek are middle of the league in 3 point attempts at about 26 a game. That would be better if Rose and BJ were good 3 PT shooters. Triangle doesn't mean you don't get fast breaks or take open 3's.

No, it's not about one game. It's about the Triangle. Read the article.

It's not about 3pt shots taken - it's about where you take them.

See bolded.

I've read the article before. Still doesn't address the fact that we played with Rose and BJ who are not 3 Point shooters! That's a huge issue. Also the Knicks are 15th in 3pt % at 36%. Rose n BJ aren't exactly helping that! Mostly Rose.

It's not about their shooting percentage. It's about guys shooting too many low value mid range jumpers. Not enough corner threes. Rose can get to the rim at will. That's a good skill and could be utilized better with a better offense. Say a pick and roll heavy offense with Willy Hernangomez setting picks and Melo, KP, and CLee shooting threes. We've never even seen them try that.

Knicks are getting corner 3's!!! They don't get enough 3's from Rose who is often wide open!!! Like I said the Knicks are not bad in terms of 3pt attempts or 3pt % but they would be better once they upgrade the talent at PG with better 3pt shooting. Derek Fisher LIVED off the corner 3! It's literally a staple of the Triangle for the PG! Rose doesn't do that.

It's not his game. If Phil didn't know that when he traded for him he's an idiot. Try maximizing the talents of the players you signed and traded for instead of trying to force them to be something they're not. If Phil didn't want a pg who did what rose does he shouldn't have traded for him. It's not really that complicated. You can't go out and get a ten year vet and then act surprised by what you get. Watch some tape.

Rose was a tryout to see if he can work with this team and make a playoff run and they went away from the triangle to let the team run whatever Hornacek wanted to run with a little bit of triangle but not much so they did try to maximize Rose's talents and i'm not sure if you noticed but it didn't work so now Phil is ready to give the young guys more of a chance and build this team triangle worthy so lets just see what happens since we can't do anything but give it a chance anyway. You're complaining just to complain which is what you do.

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I am sorry but this is completely jacked up reasoning. Anyone who thinks we will shoot the same percentage from corner 3 when we take 10% of our shots from there vs. When we take 25% of our shots from there has no idea about how to use statistics. This type of extrapolation is not supported by anything.

We don't design our offense around mid range shots. I don't know what this guy watches but we have possession after possession where our "alpha dogs" ignore open 3 pt shooters so they can attempt contested jump shots. That is not a problem with the design.

Overall the article is just a compilation of numbers and a conclusion that's a complete non sequitur.

YUP! This is the real reason for the lack of 3pt shots. The proper play here would've been to pass to one of the open shooters! You've got Melo, KP and CLee who are all very good 3pt shooters. Once Rose draws in the D the SMART play is to hit one of them.

it's only random basketball when you are trying to inflate your stats

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I am sorry but this is completely jacked up reasoning. Anyone who thinks we will shoot the same percentage from corner 3 when we take 10% of our shots from there vs. When we take 25% of our shots from there has no idea about how to use statistics. This type of extrapolation is not supported by anything.

We don't design our offense around mid range shots. I don't know what this guy watches but we have possession after possession where our "alpha dogs" ignore open 3 pt shooters so they can attempt contested jump shots. That is not a problem with the design.

Overall the article is just a compilation of numbers and a conclusion that's a complete non sequitur.

YUP! This is the real reason for the lack of 3pt shots. The proper play here would've been to pass to one of the open shooters! You've got Melo, KP and CLee who are all very good 3pt shooters. Once Rose draws in the D the SMART play is to hit one of them.

Who traded for that Rose guy anyway. If only there had been a way to research what kind of player Rose is and what kind of system he'd thrive in.

Also, nix, regarding your statement that the problem is Rose and Jennings can't shoot

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/chicagosports/status/836975573536817152

These moves were made on behalf of Melo! We don't have to worry about that anymore. Now we can focus on building a real team with KP and Willy at the core with some new 2 Way Team Oriented players. Stop focusing on the current roster. This roster is a Dead Man Walking. It's over for this roster which is a good thing. Just focus on what this team needs to do going forward.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I am sorry but this is completely jacked up reasoning. Anyone who thinks we will shoot the same percentage from corner 3 when we take 10% of our shots from there vs. When we take 25% of our shots from there has no idea about how to use statistics. This type of extrapolation is not supported by anything.

We don't design our offense around mid range shots. I don't know what this guy watches but we have possession after possession where our "alpha dogs" ignore open 3 pt shooters so they can attempt contested jump shots. That is not a problem with the design.

Overall the article is just a compilation of numbers and a conclusion that's a complete non sequitur.

YUP! This is the real reason for the lack of 3pt shots. The proper play here would've been to pass to one of the open shooters! You've got Melo, KP and CLee who are all very good 3pt shooters. Once Rose draws in the D the SMART play is to hit one of them.

Who traded for that Rose guy anyway. If only there had been a way to research what kind of player Rose is and what kind of system he'd thrive in.

Also, nix, regarding your statement that the problem is Rose and Jennings can't shoot

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/chicagosports/status/836975573536817152

These moves were made on behalf of Melo! We don't have to worry about that anymore. Now we can focus on building a real team with KP and Willy at the core with some new 2 Way Team Oriented players. Stop focusing on the current roster. This roster is a Dead Man Walking. It's over for this roster which is a good thing. Just focus on what this team needs to do going forward.

Jerian Grant is a two-way player Phil traded after one season. Glad to hear that's Melo's fault too. Man, I wish I got $12M a year and didn't have to take any responsibilities for the things I did.

Once again, these moves were made on behalf of Melo. Remember Phil had a talk with Melo about the pace of improvement and Melo wanted a win now situation. Thus we went after some vets for him. To ignore that is to totally miss the reason behind the moves. Now we no longer have to focus on what Melo wants. That crap is over. Now we need to move forward with building a new core for this team's future. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT OR DO YOU WANT TO KEEP BYTCHING ABOUT THIS DEAD DIRECTION??? GET IT THRU YOUR HEAD WE'RE MOVING ON!

Chandler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I am sorry but this is completely jacked up reasoning. Anyone who thinks we will shoot the same percentage from corner 3 when we take 10% of our shots from there vs. When we take 25% of our shots from there has no idea about how to use statistics. This type of extrapolation is not supported by anything.

We don't design our offense around mid range shots. I don't know what this guy watches but we have possession after possession where our "alpha dogs" ignore open 3 pt shooters so they can attempt contested jump shots. That is not a problem with the design.

Overall the article is just a compilation of numbers and a conclusion that's a complete non sequitur.

YUP! This is the real reason for the lack of 3pt shots. The proper play here would've been to pass to one of the open shooters! You've got Melo, KP and CLee who are all very good 3pt shooters. Once Rose draws in the D the SMART play is to hit one of them.

not to mention that all 3 of those guys are in a bad position to help with an offensive rebound if he misses

I think the fundamental idea of any system basketball is to try and create easier shots -- not contested ones for your star players

If team creates easy short that average NBA player can make how star players will constantly prove their stardom?
By being a great defender? By hasting for the ball? Being a leader a team player? Come on man... This is hard work.
Why just not put yourself in position to jack up 25 random attempts and mostly difficult once to prove that you are a real superstar.
Its not a rocket science...

CrushAlot wrote:Martin posted an article last summer from a guy that is an 'insider' and attended the summer league (I believe as a media member or scout because Orlando doesn't sell tickets). The guy had a lot of info but one of the things he said was that the Knicks were done with Grant and saw him as a mistake. I think Grant was going to be moved anyway but the Knicks needed a point guard. It wasn't just for Melo. Remember how excited the board got about the Wroten signing? Larkin, Jose and Jerian are all back ups at best.

one of the things you will need to argue then is that Grant was worth the wait and/or showed enough to hold onto by potential itself OR that taking a shot at a former MVP wasn't worth the upside risk. Tough argument all things considered. I don't want Chicago and still see that Grants numbers are nothing to write home about.