newyorknewyork wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Caseloads wrote:Plus, I like how Phil actually wanted more assets from the wolves so he would win the trade. Smart man

Trading THREE POSITIVE ASSETS ( Robin Lopez, a young player at cost control ( who did not pan out as hoped, but still, there is principle here) and a draft pick) for a net negative asset, how is this smart?

If the Knicks could have gotten on single lousy conditional 2nd round pick for Rose but did not, how is that smart? Anything would be better than nothing for player who has no future here.

The Warriors, IIRC, got a 2nd in a trade, which they used to get Monta Ellis, who they rode hard at cost control, got max value out of his younger years, then traded him to get Bogut ( getting a team to trade big for small, which is always a win for the team getting the big) who helped create a positive defensive culture for the team and helped them win a ring.

Expanding an asset and getting greater returns every time you churn it is smart.

Taking multiple assets and grinding them down into nothing, how is that smart at all?

The Yankees trading for Andrew Miller at a deadline, for a moderate price, then reflipping him later after getting good usage out of him, for a crap ton haul of prospects, that's smart.

You know why the Rockets were able to trade for James Harden and sign Dwight Howard? Not saying that were going to get them a ring, but the GM, Morey, made it simple. Trade two pennies for a nickel. Trade a nickel and a dime for a quarter. Trade three quarters for a dollar. Keep doing it. He kept doing it until he had an asset base to trade for Harden. Then have enough space to sign Howard and still have more assets to keep building the team.

If the Knicks held onto Robin Lopez until this deadline and traded him for some nice young assets, that would have been "smart" Lopez only cost them cap space, he gave them some good usage, and now is a tool to get a nice return. This is what winning teams do. What just happened with Rose, investing in a net negative player, this is what losing teams do.

The knicks did get a 2nd rd pick in the deal and Holiday. However the deal was dumb because it was rushed. Who were the knicks bidding against? No one wanted to take on that salary and the bulls were likely ready to pay someone to take him off their hands but I guess Phil wanted Rose despite the obvious concerns. Another thing that hurt was Phil's terrible habit of anchoring his assets with dead weight(Calderon). He did that with Tyson(Felton) and Shump(JR) deal too.

Also, the Lopez deal hurts twice because it open the door to Noah's contract

Wow, you have a lot of assumptions in this post but no facts.

Fact: the knicks did get a 2nd rd pick

I guess I just disproved your post.

Fact: Phil did anchor his assets with dead weight

I guess I just disproved your post. again

Yes, some assumptions where made based on the articles that came out at the time. Who else was Rose linked too. Any one? What we do know was his play had been awful for the last few years and Chicago was desperate to get rid of him kind of like how Toronto was desperate to get rid of Bargs.

Justin Holiday is better then Jerian Grant at this moment. Taking a shot at Derek Rose for one season was a worthwhile risk over what Robin Lopez brought to the table with 3 years remaining on his contract. The only issue I have always had is the amount of years he gave Noah which has nothing to do with the actual Rose trade. Even though ideally Noah's defense, passing, Intangibles were perfect for this team. He just doesn't have it anymore. But even that is somewhat smoothed over by finding Willie in the 2nd round and the bargain deal he has KOQ on.

Justin Holiday has played better than I ever expected and has really been a decent player but he is turning 28 in April and is up for a raise. On a vet minimum deal he is a good value guy but if he gets a deal like Lance Thomas he would be terrible because Holiday is still a below average to maybe average player. Also, Jerian Grant is younger and quietly has a better TS%, WS/48, BPM, Vorp, Ast%, Ortg, Drtg and STl%. Plus he is on a rookie contract. It took Holiday time to find his footing and he started out much worse than Grant.

Rose was never a better risk because he had become a terrible player since his injuries. There was a reason some questioned rather Calderon was a better defensive player than Rose when some posters kept pumping up how "great" Rose looked to close the year with the bulls. Why anyone would trade a good player for a terrible player is beyond me especially when it creates two holes. It creates a hole at the center position and also the PG position because Rose doesn't fill in the hole he makes it deeper.

On top of that Phil created a public relations mess when he knew about the civil trial before he traded for Rose. How do you bring in a guy with so much baggage on the court and off the court if you are trying to change the culture?

crzymdups wrote:Best thing you can say about Phil at the deadline is that he didn't give up any picks. But I feel he could've gotten some.

Also, I think Rubio for Rose was a clear and massive upgrade. That move should've been made straight up. It was a no-brainer, especially given Phil's major complaint about the team is lack of ball movement. Truly a missed opportunity to try to land Rubio.

I don't agree. I'd rather let Rose walk and take the cap room than be stuck with years of Rubio unless I get another asset.

I'm also not sure there was a deal out there for O'Quinn because that's the same price Lopes was out there for.

Caseloads wrote:the celtics really missed out at the deadline this year. they are unlikely to win the championship this year, and they could have picked up butler, who is young enough and tough enough to grow with the core, and could have put some scare into the Cavs.

They could have picked up PG also and really pulled a GSW East

I would not have done it for PG if they wanted Crowder included. Now if they would have asked for Jaylen Brown, Smart, and the Nets pick then I would think about it. George is good but he isn't great plus the Celtics have a great chance at drafting Fultz. It's a crap shoot but so would be gutting your team for PG when he could bolt for LA. I would much rather have tried to get Butler who has years on his contract and is a better player.

yellowboy90 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Caseloads wrote:Plus, I like how Phil actually wanted more assets from the wolves so he would win the trade. Smart man

Trading THREE POSITIVE ASSETS ( Robin Lopez, a young player at cost control ( who did not pan out as hoped, but still, there is principle here) and a draft pick) for a net negative asset, how is this smart?

If the Knicks could have gotten on single lousy conditional 2nd round pick for Rose but did not, how is that smart? Anything would be better than nothing for player who has no future here.

The Warriors, IIRC, got a 2nd in a trade, which they used to get Monta Ellis, who they rode hard at cost control, got max value out of his younger years, then traded him to get Bogut ( getting a team to trade big for small, which is always a win for the team getting the big) who helped create a positive defensive culture for the team and helped them win a ring.

Expanding an asset and getting greater returns every time you churn it is smart.

Taking multiple assets and grinding them down into nothing, how is that smart at all?

The Yankees trading for Andrew Miller at a deadline, for a moderate price, then reflipping him later after getting good usage out of him, for a crap ton haul of prospects, that's smart.

You know why the Rockets were able to trade for James Harden and sign Dwight Howard? Not saying that were going to get them a ring, but the GM, Morey, made it simple. Trade two pennies for a nickel. Trade a nickel and a dime for a quarter. Trade three quarters for a dollar. Keep doing it. He kept doing it until he had an asset base to trade for Harden. Then have enough space to sign Howard and still have more assets to keep building the team.

If the Knicks held onto Robin Lopez until this deadline and traded him for some nice young assets, that would have been "smart" Lopez only cost them cap space, he gave them some good usage, and now is a tool to get a nice return. This is what winning teams do. What just happened with Rose, investing in a net negative player, this is what losing teams do.

The knicks did get a 2nd rd pick in the deal and Holiday. However the deal was dumb because it was rushed. Who were the knicks bidding against? No one wanted to take on that salary and the bulls were likely ready to pay someone to take him off their hands but I guess Phil wanted Rose despite the obvious concerns. Another thing that hurt was Phil's terrible habit of anchoring his assets with dead weight(Calderon). He did that with Tyson(Felton) and Shump(JR) deal too.

Also, the Lopez deal hurts twice because it open the door to Noah's contract

Wow, you have a lot of assumptions in this post but no facts.

Fact: the knicks did get a 2nd rd pick

I guess I just disproved your post.

Fact: Phil did anchor his assets with dead weight

I guess I just disproved your post. again

Yes, some assumptions where made based on the articles that came out at the time. Who else was Rose linked too. Any one? What we do know was his play had been awful for the last few years and Chicago was desperate to get rid of him kind of like how Toronto was desperate to get rid of Bargs.

Justin Holiday is better then Jerian Grant at this moment. Taking a shot at Derek Rose for one season was a worthwhile risk over what Robin Lopez brought to the table with 3 years remaining on his contract. The only issue I have always had is the amount of years he gave Noah which has nothing to do with the actual Rose trade. Even though ideally Noah's defense, passing, Intangibles were perfect for this team. He just doesn't have it anymore. But even that is somewhat smoothed over by finding Willie in the 2nd round and the bargain deal he has KOQ on.

Justin Holiday has played better than I ever expected and has really been a decent player but he is turning 28 in April and is up for a raise. On a vet minimum deal he is a good value guy but if he gets a deal like Lance Thomas he would be terrible because Holiday is still a below average to maybe average player. Also, Jerian Grant is younger and quietly has a better TS%, WS/48, BPM, Vorp, Ast%, Ortg, Drtg and STl%. Plus he is on a rookie contract. It took Holiday time to find his footing and he started out much worse than Grant.

Rose was never a better risk because he had become a terrible player since his injuries. There was a reason some questioned rather Calderon was a better defensive player than Rose when some posters kept pumping up how "great" Rose looked to close the year with the bulls. Why anyone would trade a good player for a terrible player is beyond me especially when it creates two holes. It creates a hole at the center position and also the PG position because Rose doesn't fill in the hole he makes it deeper.

On top of that Phil created a public relations mess when he knew about the civil trial before he traded for Rose. How do you bring in a guy with so much baggage on the court and off the court if you are trying to change the culture?

On a one year deal you take a shot a player like Rose's pedigree and potential to return somewhat to MVP form. Rose was proven innocent and it shouldn't be held against him some gold digger wanted to accuse him of rape. I don't even like Rose and lost any interest of him being on this team after he went awol. But I have absolutely no problem with Phil taking a shot at a talent like Rose while he is on a one year deal. I wasn't a fan of the Robin Lopez contract to begin with so shedding that contract with Rose's expiring was a positive to me. Calderon had no value except as an expiring contract to take back a longer term one. Grant was amazing analytically out of College so yea he still has potential but we also thought he would be more NBA ready then he was due to being an older senior.

newyorknewyork wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Caseloads wrote:the celtics really missed out at the deadline this year. they are unlikely to win the championship this year, and they could have picked up butler, who is young enough and tough enough to grow with the core, and could have put some scare into the Cavs.

They could have picked up PG also and really pulled a GSW East

Yeah, I agree with this. I think the time was ripe for the Celtics to pick up at least one star, if not two. From all indications Ainge did make the Brooklyn pick available in the Paul George discussions... that would've been insane for them. To me Paul George fits the Celtics better than Butler.

The most crazy thing about the Celtics is that this wasn't their last chance. They can still make a power move at the draft. They can also still be in the same situation in 2018, because the Nets will be terrible next year and the Celtics have that pick, too.

Or, they can just draft two young studs and plan to build for like 3, 4 years down the road when the Warriors dynasty is slowly down.

There is no rush. At the draft picks will hold more value. The #1-3, they can trade that straight up or offer less assets to be included for a George or Butler. Or like you said just keep drafting and building.

Bradley, Isiah Thomas, Smart all are going to be FA the same year. So they need pipeline players as I doubt they will be paying them all. And each player can net them more individually then if they packaged them for a Butler or George who Indy and Chi are going to want a kings ransom for. Plus they have cap flexibility where they can just sign a Favors or Cousins 2 yrs from now while adding lotto picks at cost effective deals without giving up any real assets.

Basically they should sit back and cherry pick no-brainer type moves.

y2zipper wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Best thing you can say about Phil at the deadline is that he didn't give up any picks. But I feel he could've gotten some.

Also, I think Rubio for Rose was a clear and massive upgrade. That move should've been made straight up. It was a no-brainer, especially given Phil's major complaint about the team is lack of ball movement. Truly a missed opportunity to try to land Rubio.

I don't agree. I'd rather let Rose walk and take the cap room than be stuck with years of Rubio unless I get another asset.

I'm also not sure there was a deal out there for O'Quinn because that's the same price Lopes was out there for.

yellowboy90 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Caseloads wrote:Plus, I like how Phil actually wanted more assets from the wolves so he would win the trade. Smart man

Trading THREE POSITIVE ASSETS ( Robin Lopez, a young player at cost control ( who did not pan out as hoped, but still, there is principle here) and a draft pick) for a net negative asset, how is this smart?

If the Knicks could have gotten on single lousy conditional 2nd round pick for Rose but did not, how is that smart? Anything would be better than nothing for player who has no future here.

The Warriors, IIRC, got a 2nd in a trade, which they used to get Monta Ellis, who they rode hard at cost control, got max value out of his younger years, then traded him to get Bogut ( getting a team to trade big for small, which is always a win for the team getting the big) who helped create a positive defensive culture for the team and helped them win a ring.

Expanding an asset and getting greater returns every time you churn it is smart.

Taking multiple assets and grinding them down into nothing, how is that smart at all?

The Yankees trading for Andrew Miller at a deadline, for a moderate price, then reflipping him later after getting good usage out of him, for a crap ton haul of prospects, that's smart.

You know why the Rockets were able to trade for James Harden and sign Dwight Howard? Not saying that were going to get them a ring, but the GM, Morey, made it simple. Trade two pennies for a nickel. Trade a nickel and a dime for a quarter. Trade three quarters for a dollar. Keep doing it. He kept doing it until he had an asset base to trade for Harden. Then have enough space to sign Howard and still have more assets to keep building the team.

If the Knicks held onto Robin Lopez until this deadline and traded him for some nice young assets, that would have been "smart" Lopez only cost them cap space, he gave them some good usage, and now is a tool to get a nice return. This is what winning teams do. What just happened with Rose, investing in a net negative player, this is what losing teams do.

The knicks did get a 2nd rd pick in the deal and Holiday. However the deal was dumb because it was rushed. Who were the knicks bidding against? No one wanted to take on that salary and the bulls were likely ready to pay someone to take him off their hands but I guess Phil wanted Rose despite the obvious concerns. Another thing that hurt was Phil's terrible habit of anchoring his assets with dead weight(Calderon). He did that with Tyson(Felton) and Shump(JR) deal too.

Also, the Lopez deal hurts twice because it open the door to Noah's contract

Wow, you have a lot of assumptions in this post but no facts.

Fact: the knicks did get a 2nd rd pick

I guess I just disproved your post.

Fact: Phil did anchor his assets with dead weight

I guess I just disproved your post. again

Yes, some assumptions where made based on the articles that came out at the time. Who else was Rose linked too. Any one? What we do know was his play had been awful for the last few years and Chicago was desperate to get rid of him kind of like how Toronto was desperate to get rid of Bargs.

Soooooooo assumptions were made and you somehow disproved me saying you made assumptions?? Hmmmmmmmmmm

Caseloads wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Caseloads wrote:the celtics really missed out at the deadline this year. they are unlikely to win the championship this year, and they could have picked up butler, who is young enough and tough enough to grow with the core, and could have put some scare into the Cavs.

They could have picked up PG also and really pulled a GSW East

Yeah, I agree with this. I think the time was ripe for the Celtics to pick up at least one star, if not two. From all indications Ainge did make the Brooklyn pick available in the Paul George discussions... that would've been insane for them. To me Paul George fits the Celtics better than Butler.

The most crazy thing about the Celtics is that this wasn't their last chance. They can still make a power move at the draft. They can also still be in the same situation in 2018, because the Nets will be terrible next year and the Celtics have that pick, too.

Or, they can just draft two young studs and plan to build for like 3, 4 years down the road when the Warriors dynasty is slowly down.

There is no rush. At the draft picks will hold more value. The #1-3, they can trade that straight up or offer less assets to be included for a George or Butler. Or like you said just keep drafting and building.

Bradley, Isiah Thomas, Smart all are going to be FA the same year. So they need pipeline players as I doubt they will be paying them all. And each player can net them more individually then if they packaged them for a Butler or George who Indy and Chi are going to want a kings ransom for. Plus they have cap flexibility where they can just sign a Favors or Cousins 2 yrs from now while adding lotto picks at cost effective deals without giving up any real assets.

Basically they should sit back and cherry pick no-brainer type moves.

they missed a window this year. celts could have come out of the east

Yep, but instead of making any additions they sat back and watched Toronto add S.Ibaka and PJ Tucker and then lose to them in their first game back from the all star break....lol

corvetteknick wrote:All Phil proved at the deadline is that he is woefully overmatched in this job. He had a good-sized expiring contract (Rose) and a cheap expiring contract (Jennings) and could not move either one. He has 2 guys - O'Quinn and Kous who would get far more playing time on other teams, who make modest salaries and could not move either of them for something that fits "his system" (whatever that is). Supposedly, he did not pull the trigger on a straight Lee for Rivers deal, even though Rivers is 7 years younger, and despite this team having a desperate need for a PG that can actually work to KP's strengths - he passed on Rubio (pass first PG) to keep Rose, who has zero chance of being re-signed. There was nothing to like about what Phil did at the deadline.