knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as you guys keep blaming melo for the Knicks failures like you blamed Amare. Hey young failing team will bring changes every 3 months...

I would like you guys to give me an exple of a team that won a ring building thought draft..other the GSW..who got absolutely lucky with curry and klay.

Like Portland and OKC saw there high picks leave them high and dry because they go tired of losing.
How are going to build something with a 74 yr old president who wish he was the coach. In a yr or 2 when Phil us gone, some else will come in and change everything..

Curry/Klay/Draymond
Lenard/Duncan/Manu/Parker
Wade
Dirk
Kobe
Paul Pierce
Jordan
Hakeem...

Pretty much every team that has won a title did so featuring a STAR player they drafted. Miami's superfriends and Larry's Pistons are the closest anomalies and Miami doesnt win with Shaq or Lebron without Wade.

I mean really? You follow the NBA?

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

The spin has to stop...Please be honest...Ray Felton was running the offense not Kidd...What was our record when Ray got hurt mid-season??..Woodson's defense was giving up 95 points per game..Phil want to run the triangle..The coach and players don't want to run the triangle...Melo, Melo, Melo...The Fish rots at the head...

If you cant see the head of this team is Melo your delusional. Everything that happens on the floor starts and ends with him. If you want to blame Phil for him being here that is fair as well. 100% fair. Hopefully he's trying to fix that. I suspect it wont be until the offseason.

Anthony wanted to find Kidd, who had scored half as many points but who Anthony knew had had just as big an effect on the game. Anthony went over to Kidd to hug him and say “thank you.”

That signified just how much Anthony, the Knicks’ best player, values having Kidd as a teammate.

“I think it’s huge,” Kidd said of what it meant to receive the hug. “I think he trusts me coming down the stretch.”

Anthony put his faith in Kidd when the Knicks trailed the Nuggets early in the fourth quarter. During a timeout, Coach Mike Woodson wanted Anthony to be the focal point of the team’s offense. Anthony had a different idea.

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“He told me, ‘Let’s play through you,’ ” Kidd said. “Coach wanted to play through Carmelo, but Carmelo was like, ‘No, I want to play through Jason.’ I think that’s the greatest compliment a teammate can get.”

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership.
Tyson said Melo needs strong leadership.

You just keep ignoring the facts because they dont suit your agenda. Jeff doesnt run the triangle much and Phil was fine with that. Has said so openly. They thought Melo would roll with their plan. Its just not in the cards. Its gonna be a messy breakup but needs to happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/sports/basketball/carmelo-anthony-likes-knicks-offense-to-go-through-jason-kidd.html

Fish, it's one thing if you had any proof to think this team would be better with out melo, but you don't have an ounce of evidence that this would be the case, in fact with a 0-21 record without melo on the court..how could you even think these thoughts.

How many people thought we would be better of without Ewing, Marbury, Houston, Amare.

If you cant trade melo without getting better immediately you are truly playing yourself, and setting the franchise back yrs upon yrs.. You saw it with EWING.

Just having player on the bench or injured list is not helping a little bit with the issues this player creates.
Team cannot get better by extracting one player who defined the team culture.
It can only get better by extracting this one player and follow it up with developing new culture.
And the only way of accomplish this is by surrendering to a lot of losing and a lot of hard work which can in fact be in vain.
But if organization is not taking this chance it will NEVER be good.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

The spin has to stop...Please be honest...Ray Felton was running the offense not Kidd...What was our record when Ray got hurt mid-season??..Woodson's defense was giving up 95 points per game..Phil want to run the triangle..The coach and players don't want to run the triangle...Melo, Melo, Melo...The Fish rots at the head...

If you cant see the head of this team is Melo your delusional. Everything that happens on the floor starts and ends with him. If you want to blame Phil for him being here that is fair as well. 100% fair. Hopefully he's trying to fix that. I suspect it wont be until the offseason.

Anthony wanted to find Kidd, who had scored half as many points but who Anthony knew had had just as big an effect on the game. Anthony went over to Kidd to hug him and say “thank you.”

That signified just how much Anthony, the Knicks’ best player, values having Kidd as a teammate.

“I think it’s huge,” Kidd said of what it meant to receive the hug. “I think he trusts me coming down the stretch.”

Anthony put his faith in Kidd when the Knicks trailed the Nuggets early in the fourth quarter. During a timeout, Coach Mike Woodson wanted Anthony to be the focal point of the team’s offense. Anthony had a different idea.

Continue reading the main story
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KNICKS 112, NUGGETS 106
Anthony Helps Knicks Stay Perfect at Home DEC. 9, 2012
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“He told me, ‘Let’s play through you,’ ” Kidd said. “Coach wanted to play through Carmelo, but Carmelo was like, ‘No, I want to play through Jason.’ I think that’s the greatest compliment a teammate can get.”

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership.
Tyson said Melo needs strong leadership.

You just keep ignoring the facts because they dont suit your agenda. Jeff doesnt run the triangle much and Phil was fine with that. Has said so openly. They thought Melo would roll with their plan. Its just not in the cards. Its gonna be a messy breakup but needs to happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/sports/basketball/carmelo-anthony-likes-knicks-offense-to-go-through-jason-kidd.html

Fish, it's one thing if you had any proof to think this team would be better with out melo, but you don't have an ounce of evidence that this would be the case, in fact with a 0-21 record without melo on the court..how could you even think these thoughts.

How many people thought we would be better of without Ewing, Marbury, Houston, Amare.

If you cant trade melo without getting better immediately you are truly playing yourself, and setting the franchise back yrs upon yrs.. You saw it with EWING.

I have never EVER said the team will be better without Melo. We wont be. This tells me you simply dont read what I write. The Knicks are not a good team with him, but good enough to ensure we miss out on the kind of talent that can change our fortunes. You know.. the difference between drafting Steph Curry vs. Jordan Hill.

We need to move Melo so we can stink enough to get past this constant mediocrity and bring in some real high caliber talent.

Ewing? You mean the guy that led this franchise to at least the 2nd round for 10 straight years? Please avoid mentioning him and Melo in the same sentence again. Please.

Has there been a bigger Melo supporter here than me over the years? It sucks we wasted his time here, but he's not buying in. He's not going to become a decent defender. He's not going to be DadMelo. He's a scorer who wants to live in NY, play at MSG and watch his scoring totals rise as the years go on. Its time to move on and build something. Our culture is this is Melo's team and its not changing until he's gone.

Melo in unique bbal player and good man which incredible talents were used to create fortunes for him and bunch of his inner circle.
Now he deserved to get his place if NBA history as a winner. His family, friends, and agents have to understand this.
They should stop using him and help him to get his piece of greatness.

JamesKPolk wrote:Sorry man, you can't rebuild anywhere inside and out without new ownership.

Dolan is 61. At the bare minimum, we have another 20 years of this.

That's not too bad. Just have to wait it out. I guarantee the Knicks will return to contenders under new ownership, whenever that may be.

JamesKPolk wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:Sorry man, you can't rebuild anywhere inside and out without new ownership.

Dolan is 61. At the bare minimum, we have another 20 years of this.

That's not too bad. Just have to wait it out. I guarantee the Knicks will return to contenders under new ownership, whenever that may be.

He did it with the Rangers. George Steinbrenner learned to do it, anyone can. Truth is we are close. He's supposedly given Phil control and is not getting involved. Now we just need Phil not to suck.

Here is the problem.

James Dolan actually cares about basketball. He doesn't care about hockey. He's always courtside at Knicks games.

Dolan has built a culture of deception in New York. People are afraid to do their jobs in fear of getting fired. Verbally abusing employees, threatening the media, banishing respected Knicks staff/players, etc., all because of sensitivity to criticism and a giant ego. He hires yes men and sycophants around him who take orders. Anyone who ever tells him otherwise is soon banned from MSG. This is the type of man Dolan is. The Oakley fiasco is an example that Dolan hasn't changed and never will. Accusing Oakley of being an alcoholic and the embarrassing display of paying Sprewell for an appearance and bringing back the likes of Vin Baker are an example of his pettiness. Anyone with that level of maturity and intelligence running an organization will never prosper.

George Steinbrenner, for all his faults, was a smart guy, and he still won even when meddling (in the 70's at least). Steinbrenner worked for all he had. Dolan was handed everything on a silver platter by his father. Dolan has zero track record to fall back on and has never shown a desire to win like Steinbrenner. Instead he has shown a desire to treat the Knicks as his own personal toy in order to carry out agendas and settle scores.

There is no hope for Dolan. He is Donald Sterling with a bigger budget. The worst owner in the NBA.

arkrud wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

The spin has to stop...Please be honest...Ray Felton was running the offense not Kidd...What was our record when Ray got hurt mid-season??..Woodson's defense was giving up 95 points per game..Phil want to run the triangle..The coach and players don't want to run the triangle...Melo, Melo, Melo...The Fish rots at the head...

If you cant see the head of this team is Melo your delusional. Everything that happens on the floor starts and ends with him. If you want to blame Phil for him being here that is fair as well. 100% fair. Hopefully he's trying to fix that. I suspect it wont be until the offseason.

Anthony wanted to find Kidd, who had scored half as many points but who Anthony knew had had just as big an effect on the game. Anthony went over to Kidd to hug him and say “thank you.”

That signified just how much Anthony, the Knicks’ best player, values having Kidd as a teammate.

“I think it’s huge,” Kidd said of what it meant to receive the hug. “I think he trusts me coming down the stretch.”

Anthony put his faith in Kidd when the Knicks trailed the Nuggets early in the fourth quarter. During a timeout, Coach Mike Woodson wanted Anthony to be the focal point of the team’s offense. Anthony had a different idea.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

KNICKS 112, NUGGETS 106
Anthony Helps Knicks Stay Perfect at Home DEC. 9, 2012
Advertisement

Continue reading the main story
“He told me, ‘Let’s play through you,’ ” Kidd said. “Coach wanted to play through Carmelo, but Carmelo was like, ‘No, I want to play through Jason.’ I think that’s the greatest compliment a teammate can get.”

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership.
Tyson said Melo needs strong leadership.

You just keep ignoring the facts because they dont suit your agenda. Jeff doesnt run the triangle much and Phil was fine with that. Has said so openly. They thought Melo would roll with their plan. Its just not in the cards. Its gonna be a messy breakup but needs to happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/sports/basketball/carmelo-anthony-likes-knicks-offense-to-go-through-jason-kidd.html

Fish, it's one thing if you had any proof to think this team would be better with out melo, but you don't have an ounce of evidence that this would be the case, in fact with a 0-21 record without melo on the court..how could you even think these thoughts.

How many people thought we would be better of without Ewing, Marbury, Houston, Amare.

If you cant trade melo without getting better immediately you are truly playing yourself, and setting the franchise back yrs upon yrs.. You saw it with EWING.

I have never EVER said the team will be better without Melo. We wont be. This tells me you simply dont read what I write. The Knicks are not a good team with him, but good enough to ensure we miss out on the kind of talent that can change our fortunes. You know.. the difference between drafting Steph Curry vs. Jordan Hill.

We need to move Melo so we can stink enough to get past this constant mediocrity and bring in some real high caliber talent.

Ewing? You mean the guy that led this franchise to at least the 2nd round for 10 straight years? Please avoid mentioning him and Melo in the same sentence again. Please.

Has there been a bigger Melo supporter here than me over the years? It sucks we wasted his time here, but he's not buying in. He's not going to become a decent defender. He's not going to be DadMelo. He's a scorer who wants to live in NY, play at MSG and watch his scoring totals rise as the years go on. Its time to move on and build something. Our culture is this is Melo's team and its not changing until he's gone.

Melo in unique bbal player and good man which incredible talents were used to create fortunes for him and bunch of his inner circle.
Now he deserved to get his place if NBA history as a winner. His family, friends, and agents have to understand this.
They should stop using him and help him to get his piece of greatness.

Please explain to me how you are going to trade a play with a NTC who want to remain here.

You ever see the movie "WAR of THE ROSES" that's phil and melo fighting over the house, do you remember how it ended.

knicks1248 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

The spin has to stop...Please be honest...Ray Felton was running the offense not Kidd...What was our record when Ray got hurt mid-season??..Woodson's defense was giving up 95 points per game..Phil want to run the triangle..The coach and players don't want to run the triangle...Melo, Melo, Melo...The Fish rots at the head...

If you cant see the head of this team is Melo your delusional. Everything that happens on the floor starts and ends with him. If you want to blame Phil for him being here that is fair as well. 100% fair. Hopefully he's trying to fix that. I suspect it wont be until the offseason.

Anthony wanted to find Kidd, who had scored half as many points but who Anthony knew had had just as big an effect on the game. Anthony went over to Kidd to hug him and say “thank you.”

That signified just how much Anthony, the Knicks’ best player, values having Kidd as a teammate.

“I think it’s huge,” Kidd said of what it meant to receive the hug. “I think he trusts me coming down the stretch.”

Anthony put his faith in Kidd when the Knicks trailed the Nuggets early in the fourth quarter. During a timeout, Coach Mike Woodson wanted Anthony to be the focal point of the team’s offense. Anthony had a different idea.

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“He told me, ‘Let’s play through you,’ ” Kidd said. “Coach wanted to play through Carmelo, but Carmelo was like, ‘No, I want to play through Jason.’ I think that’s the greatest compliment a teammate can get.”

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership.
Tyson said Melo needs strong leadership.

You just keep ignoring the facts because they dont suit your agenda. Jeff doesnt run the triangle much and Phil was fine with that. Has said so openly. They thought Melo would roll with their plan. Its just not in the cards. Its gonna be a messy breakup but needs to happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/sports/basketball/carmelo-anthony-likes-knicks-offense-to-go-through-jason-kidd.html

Fish, it's one thing if you had any proof to think this team would be better with out melo, but you don't have an ounce of evidence that this would be the case, in fact with a 0-21 record without melo on the court..how could you even think these thoughts.

How many people thought we would be better of without Ewing, Marbury, Houston, Amare.

If you cant trade melo without getting better immediately you are truly playing yourself, and setting the franchise back yrs upon yrs.. You saw it with EWING.

I have never EVER said the team will be better without Melo. We wont be. This tells me you simply dont read what I write. The Knicks are not a good team with him, but good enough to ensure we miss out on the kind of talent that can change our fortunes. You know.. the difference between drafting Steph Curry vs. Jordan Hill.

We need to move Melo so we can stink enough to get past this constant mediocrity and bring in some real high caliber talent.

Ewing? You mean the guy that led this franchise to at least the 2nd round for 10 straight years? Please avoid mentioning him and Melo in the same sentence again. Please.

Has there been a bigger Melo supporter here than me over the years? It sucks we wasted his time here, but he's not buying in. He's not going to become a decent defender. He's not going to be DadMelo. He's a scorer who wants to live in NY, play at MSG and watch his scoring totals rise as the years go on. Its time to move on and build something. Our culture is this is Melo's team and its not changing until he's gone.

Melo in unique bbal player and good man which incredible talents were used to create fortunes for him and bunch of his inner circle.
Now he deserved to get his place if NBA history as a winner. His family, friends, and agents have to understand this.
They should stop using him and help him to get his piece of greatness.

Please explain to me how you are going to trade a play with a NTC who want to remain here.

You ever see the movie "WAR of THE ROSES" that's phil and melo fighting over the house, do you remember how it ended.

Melo cannot be traded. He can select any team he want and let his agent negotiate a deal to get there.
He is the master of his own destiny. And he need some guidance on what is better for HIM not the Knicks.
If he want to stick around and drop buckets which are only relevant on the all-time-scorers list he can choose this as well.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:Our current front office people hasn't provided any buffers for Dolan and any sound advice in hirings over the past decade...Hanging on to them for the purpose "continuity" is just means it's business as usual...And sure they can stay in minor roles at best..It's time we get new NY blood in the organization..We need a new direction...

Isn't that what we have always done? Phil and Walsh were supposed to be those "new direction" type power moves. Both bring in big time personalities that shift the direction of the organization. The problem is, we still have the same owner and media feeds off of the change, turning every move into a circus. Maybe it's time to take a different approach and build from within and keep everything more low-key, which would keep the drama at a minimum. I don't know what the right answer is, no one does. But seems like we have done exactly what you are suggesting many times, but the result will always be the same with Dolan running the show. The change in approach needs to be focusing on building from within, rebuilding with youth, scouting (which seems to be solid), and allowing our young core to build together with minimum outside noise. Continuous change typically results in higher expectations and more disappointments. Time to dial things down a bit.

Let's step back for a second...What have we learned in the last 18 years??..It doesn't matter what talent we have on the floor, if the front office, management doesn't have a plan and on the same page at the coach and players, it really doesn't matter...We brought in two old men who could no longer connect with today's players..I'm also not suggesting this can be done overnight..We need to build a management infrastructure for the long haul..I have not suggested any short term measures that we are used to seeing...I have suggested bringing people to know the organization and the market...Bring in people who are familiar with today's players...There are no quick fixes...

I could not disagree more. It starts with the players and has always started with the players. If you have strong veteran leadership that buys into your culture it works. If you have veterans that have their own agendas your team will be dysfunctional.

What was the one time we have been successful in the last forever? The year we had Jason Kidd running the team and we established a style of play that was P&R, ball movement and defense. Backing him where guys like Tyson and Sheed and we build a whole team around guys like that.

Now our veteran leadership is Melo. Its being the face of the franchise, going to the AS games, building his brand, climbing the scoring list and being happy in NYC with you family. That is the current culture and wont change until there is another bigger more important player on the roster or he leaves. Not a bad guy but we are asking him to be something he isnt. Fail by management? Yes. However appeasing Melo isnt the fix, moving on without him is.

When Melo is gone, and its young guys and vets like Lee and Noah the culture will instantly change. When this is Jeff's team the culture will change. Its not his team and wont be so long as Melo is here. If Melo is surrounded by guys like I mentioned we can win, but we have neither the time or assets to build that roster, and its a 2nd round roster at best as history has shown us. I believe Melo has advanced in the playoffs twice.

It 100% comes down the guys on the floor. Knicks want to play a style that Melo doesnt want to play. Jeff wants to push pace and move the ball. Melo wants to hold it and look for his shots. Everything else is window dressing and that situation isnt changing. DadMelo is a broken dream. He is not going to lead a young roster, move the ball and play hard on defense. Phil may be a douche and an arrogant prick and may have handled the Melo situation poorly, but he's also right in the source of the problem.

GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as you guys keep blaming melo for the Knicks failures like you blamed Amare. Hey young failing team will bring changes every 3 months...

I would like you guys to give me an exple of a team that won a ring building thought draft..other the GSW..who got absolutely lucky with curry and klay.

Like Portland and OKC saw there high picks leave them high and dry because they go tired of losing.
How are going to build something with a 74 yr old president who wish he was the coach. In a yr or 2 when Phil us gone, some else will come in and change everything..

How about EVERY team?

Curry/Klay/Draymond
Lenard/Duncan/Manu/Parker
Wade
Dirk
Kobe
Paul Pierce
Jordan
Hakeem...

Pretty much every team that has won a title did so featuring a STAR player they drafted. Miami's superfriends and Larry's Pistons are the closest anomalies and Miami doesnt win with Shaq or Lebron without Wade.

I mean really? You follow the NBA?

I WAS hoping you didn't bring those names up to prove a point, because almost everyone of those guys were winning the 1st or 2nd yr the were in the league, maybe not a champions ship, but playoffs definitely. All those players had solid vets around them, and stars in there prime around them to help them develop and win

KP is looking at another year of no playoffs, he is on pace to follow, the LOVES, and Cousins just trying to build a young core that will stick, but rarely ever does

I'm not seeing your better alternative! What makes more sense than drafting a new young core, developing them and adding appropriate Free Agents. We already have some veterans but the talent base has to start with high level draft talent.