fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:tank

Negatives

1-Phils credibility takes an even bigger hit
2-dimishes value to every single player on the roster
3-your developing your 2 young future stars (kp/willy)in a losing environment
4-No player wants to be part of a rebuilding process, especially FA.
5-it will be tough to even retain your own FA
5-people get fired a lot quicker
6-there isn't a cp3,kidd, wall, type that will instantly change our fortunes

Postives-

1- Potential high level young role player

lets be honest for 16 years we tried the "winning" way and failed. Free agents havent exactly run to us. I want to try a true rebuild and focusing on building through the draft

current plan looks good to me. Lets see what Phil does at the deadline. If Phil doesnt hit HRs on Willy and KP he's just another Isiah, but those players have given me enough hope and we have a couple young bigs worth building around. Kuz, KOQ, Lee, Lance and Noah are all good players. Rose and Melo are epic ball stoppers and dont defend. Not blame at this point, just poor fits. Moving them IMO would start the "true" rebuild you mention. We should have a good pick in this draft.

There is no good way to lose unpurpose. However if we can move Rose/Melo at the deadline you run the young guys out there. If we are winning games and killing the tank we are doing so with players in our long term plan. If they take their lumps we get better draft position. To me that is the only way to play this.

Rose is a hell of a scorer. So is Melo. Both bring good things to the table but need the right fit. Willy/Noah/KOQ/Lee/Jennings/Lance are all ball movers. KP/Melo/Rose are all ball stoppers. To quote someone "its a clumsy roster" and overall there is good talent but poor fit.

Lets see if Phil can turn this into something he's built and something positive. Right now its still Melo's team and thoughts or hopes of him taking the backseat or being DadMelo are not realistic. He views himself as the face of the franchise and the one who shoulders the blame for things not going right. Thats a problem as his solution to that is to shoot more. We just need to move on.

ok, no beef with your assessment.

just a reminder, Early was drafted ahead of Willy. It's 10x harder to draft a stud because it's unknown.

The problem I have with melo and rose is that, 85% of the board new that rose and melo was probably not a good fit, so how is it that phil and his team didn't realize that.

How did that same team not realize Noah was a back up center, and not a near max player.

Why did they give up on THJ so soon, to take grant, then trade him months later.

Why offer a NTC for 60 months, then try and trade the same play away 19 moths later. The fisher thing, the woodson firing.

Why put together a talented roster, than 3 months later try and dismantle it, without giving at least a season and a 1/2 to grow with a new coaching staff.

Why preach patience, but be so quick to blow up everything you do in a matter of months.

How can I trust some one after all these misshaps

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:tank

Negatives

1-Phils credibility takes an even bigger hit
2-dimishes value to every single player on the roster
3-your developing your 2 young future stars (kp/willy)in a losing environment
4-No player wants to be part of a rebuilding process, especially FA.
5-it will be tough to even retain your own FA
5-people get fired a lot quicker
6-there isn't a cp3,kidd, wall, type that will instantly change our fortunes

Postives-

1- Potential high level young role player

lets be honest for 16 years we tried the "winning" way and failed. Free agents havent exactly run to us. I want to try a true rebuild and focusing on building through the draft

current plan looks good to me. Lets see what Phil does at the deadline. If Phil doesnt hit HRs on Willy and KP he's just another Isiah, but those players have given me enough hope and we have a couple young bigs worth building around. Kuz, KOQ, Lee, Lance and Noah are all good players. Rose and Melo are epic ball stoppers and dont defend. Not blame at this point, just poor fits. Moving them IMO would start the "true" rebuild you mention. We should have a good pick in this draft.

There is no good way to lose unpurpose. However if we can move Rose/Melo at the deadline you run the young guys out there. If we are winning games and killing the tank we are doing so with players in our long term plan. If they take their lumps we get better draft position. To me that is the only way to play this.

Rose is a hell of a scorer. So is Melo. Both bring good things to the table but need the right fit. Willy/Noah/KOQ/Lee/Jennings/Lance are all ball movers. KP/Melo/Rose are all ball stoppers. To quote someone "its a clumsy roster" and overall there is good talent but poor fit.

Lets see if Phil can turn this into something he's built and something positive. Right now its still Melo's team and thoughts or hopes of him taking the backseat or being DadMelo are not realistic. He views himself as the face of the franchise and the one who shoulders the blame for things not going right. Thats a problem as his solution to that is to shoot more. We just need to move on.

ok, no beef with your assessment.

just a reminder, Early was drafted ahead of Willy. It's 10x harder to draft a stud because it's unknown.

The problem I have with melo and rose is that, 85% of the board new that rose and melo was probably not a good fit, so how is it that phil and his team didn't realize that.

How did that same team not realize Noah was a back up center, and not a near max player.

Why did they give up on THJ so soon, to take grant, then trade him months later.

Why offer a NTC for 60 months, then try and trade the same play away 19 moths later. The fisher thing, the woodson firing.

Why put together a talented roster, than 3 months later try and dismantle it, without giving at least a season and a 1/2 to grow with a new coaching staff.

Why preach patience, but be so quick to blow up everything you do in a matter of months.

How can I trust some one after all these misshaps

Willy was a GREAT under the radar get by the Knicks. That's the kind of move we praise other teams for making!

I think Phil played this about as well as he could. He tried to give Melo some Vet talent and see if they could buy in and sacrifice for the team to win. Phil even made statements to that effect before the season. All the while Phil kept working on building up the next generation for the franchise.

Now they're at a Crossroads of Right Now vs. The Future!!! Phil purposely kept his options open every year and this year is no different. Rose n BJ are FA's. The only change is that Phil wants to move on from Melo. There's no longer any point to Melo being here with the team primed to rebuild!!!

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:tank

Negatives

1-Phils credibility takes an even bigger hit
2-dimishes value to every single player on the roster
3-your developing your 2 young future stars (kp/willy)in a losing environment
4-No player wants to be part of a rebuilding process, especially FA.
5-it will be tough to even retain your own FA
5-people get fired a lot quicker
6-there isn't a cp3,kidd, wall, type that will instantly change our fortunes

Postives-

1- Potential high level young role player

lets be honest for 16 years we tried the "winning" way and failed. Free agents havent exactly run to us. I want to try a true rebuild and focusing on building through the draft

current plan looks good to me. Lets see what Phil does at the deadline. If Phil doesnt hit HRs on Willy and KP he's just another Isiah, but those players have given me enough hope and we have a couple young bigs worth building around. Kuz, KOQ, Lee, Lance and Noah are all good players. Rose and Melo are epic ball stoppers and dont defend. Not blame at this point, just poor fits. Moving them IMO would start the "true" rebuild you mention. We should have a good pick in this draft.

There is no good way to lose unpurpose. However if we can move Rose/Melo at the deadline you run the young guys out there. If we are winning games and killing the tank we are doing so with players in our long term plan. If they take their lumps we get better draft position. To me that is the only way to play this.

Rose is a hell of a scorer. So is Melo. Both bring good things to the table but need the right fit. Willy/Noah/KOQ/Lee/Jennings/Lance are all ball movers. KP/Melo/Rose are all ball stoppers. To quote someone "its a clumsy roster" and overall there is good talent but poor fit.

Lets see if Phil can turn this into something he's built and something positive. Right now its still Melo's team and thoughts or hopes of him taking the backseat or being DadMelo are not realistic. He views himself as the face of the franchise and the one who shoulders the blame for things not going right. Thats a problem as his solution to that is to shoot more. We just need to move on.

ok, no beef with your assessment.

just a reminder, Early was drafted ahead of Willy. It's 10x harder to draft a stud because it's unknown.

The problem I have with melo and rose is that, 85% of the board new that rose and melo was probably not a good fit, so how is it that phil and his team didn't realize that.

How did that same team not realize Noah was a back up center, and not a near max player.

Why did they give up on THJ so soon, to take grant, then trade him months later.

Why offer a NTC for 60 months, then try and trade the same play away 19 moths later. The fisher thing, the woodson firing.

Why put together a talented roster, than 3 months later try and dismantle it, without giving at least a season and a 1/2 to grow with a new coaching staff.

Why preach patience, but be so quick to blow up everything you do in a matter of months.

How can I trust some one after all these misshaps

crzymdups wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:tank

Negatives

1-Phils credibility takes an even bigger hit
2-dimishes value to every single player on the roster
3-your developing your 2 young future stars (kp/willy)in a losing environment
4-No player wants to be part of a rebuilding process, especially FA.
5-it will be tough to even retain your own FA
5-people get fired a lot quicker
6-there isn't a cp3,kidd, wall, type that will instantly change our fortunes

Postives-

1- Potential high level young role player

Some years that may be true - this is a legit loaded first round draft - particularly the top ten. You can get a starter or even all-star in the top ten.

That's what this team needs. Then we have three cheap, young, good starters (KP, Willy, 2017 draft pick) and start winning more and can attract FA in 2018, as well as having a 2018 draft pick to add to it.

This is how you build. This is how you get deep. We aren't one player away or even two players away.

Everyone knows the problem with the knicks isn't a lack of talent, it's getting the talent to play winning basketball, and running a system that caters to it's talent.

so you can draft 10 number picks and that problem will still exist

meloshouldgo wrote:What does "tank" mean? - We quit playing and lose games on purposes? That isn't a good idea
If Tank means we sit our "stars" and start the young guys give them meaningful rotation minutes and coach them up for the future - I am all over that. Start KP/Willy/Kuz/Baker and whoever else. Brink Melo/Rose and Noah off the bench. So we are going to lose more games on a lost season that's fine, but we will be making payments towards the future.

TripleThreat wrote:

nadavshomron wrote:We're not going to win the NBA championship

The time to make a big move was during Linsanity. That was the critical time when Melo was trying to force out D'Antoni, while the team was actually winning, and playing actual team ball, to trade Melo and start the tanking process.

Team sans Melo would not be a contender. But they would have avoided the Bargs trade, would have had to wait to let STAT expire, but Lin and Chandler and company would have kept the games fun and played honest team ball, while trying to rebuild during the draft and with what assets could be had in a Melo deal.

That was the critical moment to make a big move. Knicks missed it.

Now we have another "moment".
Will we miss it again?

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:tank

Negatives

1-Phils credibility takes an even bigger hit
2-dimishes value to every single player on the roster
3-your developing your 2 young future stars (kp/willy)in a losing environment
4-No player wants to be part of a rebuilding process, especially FA.
5-it will be tough to even retain your own FA
5-people get fired a lot quicker
6-there isn't a cp3,kidd, wall, type that will instantly change our fortunes

Postives-

1- Potential high level young role player

lets be honest for 16 years we tried the "winning" way and failed. Free agents havent exactly run to us. I want to try a true rebuild and focusing on building through the draft

current plan looks good to me. Lets see what Phil does at the deadline. If Phil doesnt hit HRs on Willy and KP he's just another Isiah, but those players have given me enough hope and we have a couple young bigs worth building around. Kuz, KOQ, Lee, Lance and Noah are all good players. Rose and Melo are epic ball stoppers and dont defend. Not blame at this point, just poor fits. Moving them IMO would start the "true" rebuild you mention. We should have a good pick in this draft.

There is no good way to lose unpurpose. However if we can move Rose/Melo at the deadline you run the young guys out there. If we are winning games and killing the tank we are doing so with players in our long term plan. If they take their lumps we get better draft position. To me that is the only way to play this.

Rose is a hell of a scorer. So is Melo. Both bring good things to the table but need the right fit. Willy/Noah/KOQ/Lee/Jennings/Lance are all ball movers. KP/Melo/Rose are all ball stoppers. To quote someone "its a clumsy roster" and overall there is good talent but poor fit.

Lets see if Phil can turn this into something he's built and something positive. Right now its still Melo's team and thoughts or hopes of him taking the backseat or being DadMelo are not realistic. He views himself as the face of the franchise and the one who shoulders the blame for things not going right. Thats a problem as his solution to that is to shoot more. We just need to move on.

ok, no beef with your assessment.

just a reminder, Early was drafted ahead of Willy. It's 10x harder to draft a stud because it's unknown.

The problem I have with melo and rose is that, 85% of the board new that rose and melo was probably not a good fit, so how is it that phil and his team didn't realize that.

How did that same team not realize Noah was a back up center, and not a near max player.

Why did they give up on THJ so soon, to take grant, then trade him months later.

Why offer a NTC for 60 months, then try and trade the same play away 19 moths later. The fisher thing, the woodson firing.

Why put together a talented roster, than 3 months later try and dismantle it, without giving at least a season and a 1/2 to grow with a new coaching staff.

Why preach patience, but be so quick to blow up everything you do in a matter of months.

How can I trust some one after all these misshaps

some good points you make, some are colored with your hate colored glasses.
Yes, Early was drafted before Willy. 2nd rounders rarely pan out. Why not applaud Willy instead of sulking on Early.
85% knew it was a good potential talent grab with little downside. Still might be if Melo is traded.
THJ is not a finished product even still. He has improved, but he is inconsistent. ATL is a good team, good ball movement. Grant at 23 was seen as a mature step in and start type player. Not a star. He got us Rose, I think its a good trade, You don't. That's cool.
NTC, you give it or lose him for nothing.
Good roster, "Dismantle", I think the team is pretty good, Phil just trying to move Melo, yoot movement.
See whats out there and if Melo can be happy. Melo not happy playing team ball is he? We are not over.500, its not working.
Patience??? Preach it, But if you can get a decent return, trade melo. If not, "Patience". He is a pro. Maybe its about the offseason anyway.

I agree its hard to trust, but then when you can't see the future and the past is what it is, its logical not to.

knicks1248 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:tank

Negatives

1-Phils credibility takes an even bigger hit
2-dimishes value to every single player on the roster
3-your developing your 2 young future stars (kp/willy)in a losing environment
4-No player wants to be part of a rebuilding process, especially FA.
5-it will be tough to even retain your own FA
5-people get fired a lot quicker
6-there isn't a cp3,kidd, wall, type that will instantly change our fortunes

Postives-

1- Potential high level young role player

Some years that may be true - this is a legit loaded first round draft - particularly the top ten. You can get a starter or even all-star in the top ten.

That's what this team needs. Then we have three cheap, young, good starters (KP, Willy, 2017 draft pick) and start winning more and can attract FA in 2018, as well as having a 2018 draft pick to add to it.

This is how you build. This is how you get deep. We aren't one player away or even two players away.

Everyone knows the problem with the knicks isn't a lack of talent, it's getting the talent to play winning basketball, and running a system that caters to it's talent.

so you can draft 10 number picks and that problem will still exist

No! I disagree with this. The young players we've been adding do in fact play the RIGHT WAY. They actually listen to the coaches and give max effort. We need our scouts to continue to find more young players who not only have talent but the right mental disposition to play winning team ball.

If we can add a strong defensive play making PG that would be great. The same for SG and SF! This is the entire point of trying to get the best spot in this draft and hopefully another 1st rd pick!!!

nyknickzingis wrote:As much as I'd like to see the Knicks draft a top 5 talent in the draft, the fact is no matter what we do from here on out, we are unlikely to be in the top 5.

So then it comes down to would you really get a much much better player at 8 or 9 vs 12 or 13? In my opinion - if the Knicks were a team with most of their players going into free agency, they could develop a tank strategy.

However look at our situation roster wise

Porzingis - longterm investment
Willy - longterm investment
Lee - 4 year deal
O'Quinn - 2 more years
Thomas - 4 year deal (3 years guaranteed)
Noah - 4 year deal
Kuz - 2 year investment
Holiday - We basically swapped Grant for him, who was our pick, so we should aim to keep him and he's a pretty good two way role player.

That's eight players that I think likely are back next year. Do we want these players to play bad basketball rest of the way? We want to develop the young players like KP and Willy well. Teach them winning basketball or what it takes to win. Not how to lose. We want their good games to matter. When KP and Willy play well like against the Spurs and win, it counts more than when good young players put up good stats and lose. You play with an extra edge when you play competitive and winning ball.

The Spurs drafted Leonard in the middle first round. Kobe Bryant was drafted 12th I think. Karl Malone was drafted 13th. Giannis was drafted later in the draft. There have been countless great draft picks lower in the lottery or in the middle of the first round.

I know it sucks that we will miss the playoffs even if we play good basketball rest of the season. However I rather miss the playoffs and be a 36 win team that fought till the end and moved the ball on offense, young players and players who will be back next season developed good habits, than to play tanking poor basketball.

The way the season has gone, we can probably try our best and still wind up just winning 30 games. Which should put us in the top 10. It's just been that kind of disaster season. No way would I purposely tank. Jeff is coming back next year, I think 8 or 9 players could be back next year even if there's a Melo trade. We want to form good habits. At the very least considering we are so bad on offense, we should play good team basketball on offense (like we have been the last few games). Close the season at the very least as a team that needs to focus on defense, and bring in some more defensive talent, but not too concerned about offense because they play the right way on that side of the ball.

Losing doesn't mean they'd be playing bad ball. You can play the right way and still lose simply because you don't have enough talent or are still learning how to win. The players don't actually Tank. Management will have to trade some of the big names and bring in youth and picks. Tanking is just a GM moving out players that can help win meaningless games but not get you into the playoffs!!!

So the Knicks right now are VERY close to getting close to the top 5. Just 2 games and they could move up the draft board. IMO if you're that close you might as well make the moves needed to lock in a top ten or better spot. A few months of pain in exchange for years of better talent.