Knixkik wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Hornacek always defends melo and melo repays him by just playing the way he always has and ignoring Hornacek s plays and refuses to play any defense

+1 let me add if I might, he also refuses to pass, to move without the ball, to fill up lanes in transition, and to own up to his shortcomings as a player. On the other hand tho he is really into his brand, fashion etc.

They Knicks have Rose and KP who are absolutely horrible defensive players. They are certainly bigger causes for the defense being bad then Melo. We can't possibly blame one guy for everything. Also the switch everything defensive philosophy is horrible and ineffective. I can't even think of a game where I was like wow...we wouldn't have given up 120 pts if Melo was a better weak side defender. That def cost us 35pts tonight. What a wild assertion.

I will never understand this rep about KP. He's number 2 in the league at defensive FG% at the rim. That's the second best in the league. No ELITE rim protector is a bad defensive player. He is asked to defend perimeter players at 7'3, and not sure if that makes him a bad defender. Chris Paul isn't a bad defensive player because he can't defend post players. That's just me.

Listen, I agree that he defends well by the rim, but the reality is, he is playing the 4 and almost all the 4s (many 5s as well) in the league can stretch the floor, and he is getting absolutely torched on the perimeter. While he is good by the rim, much of the game is played on the perimeter now. The game is officiated to be played on the perimeter. A change in defensive philosophy and him working on it can help to mitigate it but we need to acknowledge what is happening on the floor.

arkrud wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Hornacek is working hard on getting fired. It must be the culture of the Dolan-led organization, which takes composed and successful people and makes them look like whiny moronic losers. Would anyone maybe plonk four billion bucks to buy MSG out? Too bad it's been losing money in the last 12 months.

On the other hand, the Rangers have been managed well over the years, under the same Mr. Dolan, so ho figure.

Rangers blow it out completely and did 5 years rebuild from 0.
They hire development coach and drafted very well.
Then they hire disciplinarian coach and established the culture of winning.
Now after 10 years they hire winning coach and are perennial contenders.
Knicks if they want to do same are not even at starting point.
They did get development coach and now Phil trying to speed up the blow up.
But it looks like we still have 2 more season to go before this happened... if we will stay the course.
Hopefully Mills and Huston will stick with the plan and Dolan will stay out of bbal moving forward.

I think your giving Phil too much credit. Phil has an ego as big an anybody. He will not be here for the rebuild. Probably just looking for info to pain Melo as the sole reason this didn't work in his new book after we get done giving him all this money and he walks away.

I do not think Phil is relevant too much.
Knicks have to rebuild this way or another or they will continue to suck infinitely.
Phil is the end of the road... When he and Melo will be gone there will be nothing left.
So rebuild is inevitable.

So you are syaing the knicks have a better chance building through then draft then actually making good trades, and signing solid FA.

There's a problem with both tatics, you can get a high pick, it may turn out to be a bennett, or winslow, or jahil or just a overall project. You can trade for a solid player, a very good players, and he turns into a dud, like most of the players we currently have.

But none of it matters if the owner and president are on some BS

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:Phil is trying to set this team up for future success. He never intended to be here forever but he has seriously tried to preserve and add to our draft picks and find young talent. You have to look beyond what he did to pacify Melo. He has 3 Picks in this draft and has preserved cap space. All of this will only help the franchise going forward.

You gotta agree with this. Phil has done plenty of wrong with certain contracts and the way he's handling this Melo thing but i think with so much focus on the bad that he's done people are over looking a lot of the good things he's done for this teams future. This team is set up to have a good rebuild with the young players we already have and the draft picks he's kept and added for us. Obviously the bad stuff is what we hear about every single day from the media which we the fans start running with as well so it pretty drowns out any of the good thing we have to look forward to but in say 2 or 3 years this team will look totally different and with some right moves/draft picks there's a good chance that we're all singing a different tune in 3 years.

The Media and Fans that are killing Phil and the Knicks franchise should be a little more patient. Let the detractors get back to me if we come out of this draft with some quality young players. It's not easy to try and rebuild in NY and Phil is actually trying to accomplish that underneath all the things he's done to try and add some help around Melo. It's not like Phil has had picks to work with every year. From now on he will tho.

crzymdups wrote:

Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.

As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.

The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.

The team was not coming together. The team just got its hat handed to them by Cleveland and it was over. Instead of rising to the challenge the team weak minded as it is fold like a cheap tent. Melo wants to stay in NY and I think he will out last Phil. Melo needs to change his game for the team, stop being difiant and adjust. If that means drawing doubles and passing then so be it. Phil gave Melo a NTC because he believed Melo would adjust his game and probably thought he could get him to change. That is Phil's failure. He has probably spoken to Melo and got no results from him. Now Phil trying to reach Melo through Media, unfortunately Phil doesn't know Melo and the NY media as well as he knew Jordan and Kobe and the media surrounding them.

Phil needs to get out of the seat and coach or stay quiet and keep everything in house.

That said, I do hope the Knicks can get something for Melo. But it is Horny's job to get everyone bought in and a great way to do that is to support them

Knixkik wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Hornacek always defends melo and melo repays him by just playing the way he always has and ignoring Hornacek s plays and refuses to play any defense

+1 let me add if I might, he also refuses to pass, to move without the ball, to fill up lanes in transition, and to own up to his shortcomings as a player. On the other hand tho he is really into his brand, fashion etc.

They Knicks have Rose and KP who are absolutely horrible defensive players. They are certainly bigger causes for the defense being bad then Melo. We can't possibly blame one guy for everything. Also the switch everything defensive philosophy is horrible and ineffective. I can't even think of a game where I was like wow...we wouldn't have given up 120 pts if Melo was a better weak side defender. That def cost us 35pts tonight. What a wild assertion.

I will never understand this rep about KP. He's number 2 in the league at defensive FG% at the rim. That's the second best in the league. No ELITE rim protector is a bad defensive player. He is asked to defend perimeter players at 7'3, and not sure if that makes him a bad defender. Chris Paul isn't a bad defensive player because he can't defend post players. That's just me.

Watch a game where he reaches for silly fouls, gets caught up in the air on pump fakes(even though he is over 7 feet tall) and leaves his man wide open for threes. Problem is most "Rim protectors are 5's not guys required to cover stretch 4's. He cant play 5 (too small) and cant cover 4's, as you said.

crzymdups wrote:

Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.

As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.

The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.

Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?

Tell you what I do understand...

Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.

As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.

The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.

No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.

Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?

Tell you what I do understand...

Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.

Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a **** job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a **** job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.

And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.

The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.

As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.

The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.

No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.

Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?

Tell you what I do understand...

Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.

Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a **** job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a **** job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.

And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.

What is it do you think I am defending? I dont have a ton of nice to say about Phil aside from not trading picks. Yes I have offered some perspective a bit deeper than Phil sucks Phil sucks Phil sucks. If you see that as defending him so be it.

The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.

Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.

Yes, I've said that many times, too. I agree with the last part.

And I agree with the fact that we need to move on from Melo. But did I give Melo a no trade clause? Did I give Melo a 15% trade kicker? No. That's what Phil did. I don't disagree with his intentions, but I disagree with his methods and I think they've been proven to be ineffective. Phil's attempts to nudge Melo toward the door have resulted in Melo doubling down on staying here, created rifts on the team, and apparently one with the coach, too. Could this have been handled better? YES. And THAT is Phil's job. Everyone can see it's time to move on from Melo - Everyone. What matters is getting it done and how you do that. So far Phil has done a terrible job at it and we are currently, once again, back in our familiar spot as laughing stock of the entire league.

That last part about being the laughingstock of the entire league gets more tired to me than defending Melo, to be honest.

The question is you know the Knicks and Melo are not going to win here its a given. I don't understand why Melo doesn't want to move on you would think he wants a ring.