Has Melo bought in to team ball? Maybe.

Is it too much for the Knicks to try to play Phil's system? Maybe.

Both deserve blame, but maybe it's time to rebuild and I don't know why Melo would want to suffer through that.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Exactly right.

But over $250 mil in cap space was used on Melo, Rose, Lee, and Noah. Do you not think a good GM should have gotten better return out of that much money? These are all players with average to below average advanced stats and negative on/off point differentials. It's $250 mil spent on these guys and the team is not even playing better when they're on the court.
I will agree that his draft choices have panned out well. He's 1 for 3 in terms of drafts, trades, and FA signings.

Noah = overpaid but gives what he has
Rose = Expiring
Jennings = Expiring
Lee = fair contract
Melo = Trade Bait

Phil has not ruined the franchise or locked us into a lot of bad long term contracts. Phil has 3 picks in this draft and the chance for more if he can work trades. This franchise has a chance to rebuild the right way, so Phil has not be as bad as the recent losing and drama might suggest.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Exactly right.

But over $250 mil in cap space was used on Melo, Rose, Lee, and Noah. Do you not think a good GM should have gotten better return out of that much money? These are all players with average to below average advanced stats and negative on/off point differentials. It's $250 mil spent on these guys and the team is not even playing better when they're on the court.
I will agree that his draft choices have panned out well. He's 1 for 3 in terms of drafts, trades, and FA signings.

LIKE WHO??? Who was coming here? Didn't we go thru the Free Agent markets and do all the recruiting? I mean why are we acting like there are some hidden guys we didn't get that would've made this a title team.

Noah = overpaid but gives what he has
Rose = Expiring
Jennings = Expiring
Lee = fair contract
Melo = Trade Bait

Phil has not ruined the franchise or locked us into a lot of bad long term contracts. Phil has 3 picks in this draft and the chance for more if he can work trades. This franchise has a chance to rebuild the right way, so Phil has not be as bad as the recent losing and drama might suggest.

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It's not an either/or, and actually the organizations problems predated both of these guys by a long shot. That said, Dolan is not going to change GMs every 2 1/2 years. It's more practical from his stand point to trade a player (even if the player has a NTC). Both would be band-aid solutions but trading Melo is a quicker, easier band-aid.

The GM goal from Dolan perspective is to make money.
I think Phil did a great job at that.
Melo did too. So Dolan will be fine ether way. He is moved or not moved.

By what measure???..Certainly not company earnings....

MSG is doing pretty dumm good.
https://ycharts.com/companies/MSG/revenues
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/msg

I'm pretty sure the stock has gone up at a way slower rate than the market as a whole but I don't have time to look into it right now.

arkrud wrote:

holfresh wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It's not an either/or, and actually the organizations problems predated both of these guys by a long shot. That said, Dolan is not going to change GMs every 2 1/2 years. It's more practical from his stand point to trade a player (even if the player has a NTC). Both would be band-aid solutions but trading Melo is a quicker, easier band-aid.

The GM goal from Dolan perspective is to make money.
I think Phil did a great job at that.
Melo did too. So Dolan will be fine ether way. He is moved or not moved.

By what measure???..Certainly not company earnings....

MSG is doing pretty dumm good.
https://ycharts.com/companies/MSG/revenues
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/msg

Their earnings were a week ago and it was a beat because Radio City Music hall had a great year but prior to that they missed earnings or lost money the entire year prior..I think for 4 quarters...And mainly because of the Knicks...

They were making more money when Woody was taking them to the playoffs...

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Exactly right.

But over $250 mil in cap space was used on Melo, Rose, Lee, and Noah. Do you not think a good GM should have gotten better return out of that much money? These are all players with average to below average advanced stats and negative on/off point differentials. It's $250 mil spent on these guys and the team is not even playing better when they're on the court.
I will agree that his draft choices have panned out well. He's 1 for 3 in terms of drafts, trades, and FA signings.

LIKE WHO??? Who was coming here? Didn't we go thru the Free Agent markets and do all the recruiting? I mean why are we acting like there are some hidden guys we didn't get that would've made this a title team.

Noah = overpaid but gives what he has
Rose = Expiring
Jennings = Expiring
Lee = fair contract
Melo = Trade Bait

Phil has not ruined the franchise or locked us into a lot of bad long term contracts. Phil has 3 picks in this draft and the chance for more if he can work trades. This franchise has a chance to rebuild the right way, so Phil has not be as bad as the recent losing and drama might suggest.

More KOQ, Kuz, etc. signings and smart draft picks until you have a team that can attract legit top FAs. It's not that hard to beat the net negative impact that these 4 players (Melo, Lee, Noah, Rose) are making. We would not be worse than we are now.(If we were, it would just mean a better pick anyway, but I doubt we would be.) There's just no point in spending $250 mil on guys currently hurting the team. You're paying to lose games. It's like paying a guy to come rob you.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

Read a couple of times how you have lumped Melo with Rose. Was there a marriage I dont know about? Did Melo force Phil to get Rose? Rose has been a bad fit and bad signing. Phil brought him over! Period end of story. So please stop trying to put Rose as if its part of Melo. Its part of Phil's failure. And can you tell me what is our biggest problem? Is Melo to balme for defense inability for 48 Minutes? ked its a team defensive scheme. KP is lost of D. and Melo is not on the whole 48

Please STOP coming to Melo's rescue!!! Dude is the leader of the team and Rose is here to give Melo what he requested. Melo wanted help so Phil tried to give him help. Melo should be leading by example and passing the ball and defending hard. That would give Melo the credibility to challenge Rose for not passing or defending!!! THIS IS ON MELO!!!

Do we need to go thru the list of other top players that lead by example and words??? Melo gets the big money, the credit if they win and blame if they lose.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

nixluva wrote:TOTALLY DISAGREE! Rose and Melo are the team leaders and have boatloads of talent. They are surrounded by some good role players. Teams win when their BEST players excel. Neither Rose nor Melo do enough on both ends not pass enough to make this team successful. That is the real reason for the team losing. Don't put this on Phil. Rose and Melo are giving less and less effort and more and more ISO and DIY offense. Noah we all know has limitations but he does give everything he has. Can't say the same for Rose and Melo tho.

And who traded for Rose and gave Melo that big extension with a no trade clause? Im sure it was’t the coach. IT WAS PHIL.

boy.. talk about tunnel vision. You act like he had a choice. There wasnt. His only option was to resign Melo. To suggest letting him walk for nothing was an option is nothing but total denial. There were no trade options. He was a UFA with offers from other teams.

I have a lot more confidence in Phil drafting and adding players that give us a real future than I do in Melo ever being part of a core that can be a top team in the east.

Exactly right.

But over $250 mil in cap space was used on Melo, Rose, Lee, and Noah. Do you not think a good GM should have gotten better return out of that much money? These are all players with average to below average advanced stats and negative on/off point differentials. It's $250 mil spent on these guys and the team is not even playing better when they're on the court.
I will agree that his draft choices have panned out well. He's 1 for 3 in terms of drafts, trades, and FA signings.

LIKE WHO??? Who was coming here? Didn't we go thru the Free Agent markets and do all the recruiting? I mean why are we acting like there are some hidden guys we didn't get that would've made this a title team.

Noah = overpaid but gives what he has
Rose = Expiring
Jennings = Expiring
Lee = fair contract
Melo = Trade Bait

Phil has not ruined the franchise or locked us into a lot of bad long term contracts. Phil has 3 picks in this draft and the chance for more if he can work trades. This franchise has a chance to rebuild the right way, so Phil has not be as bad as the recent losing and drama might suggest.

More KOQ, Kuz, etc. signings and smart draft picks until you have a team that can attract legit top FAs. It's not that hard to beat the net negative impact that these 4 players (Melo, Lee, Noah, Rose) are making. We would not be worse than we are now.(If we were, it would just mean a better pick anyway, but I doubt we would be.) There's just no point in spending $250 mil on guys currently hurting the team. You're paying to lose games. It's like paying a guy to come rob you.

I agree that it's been a waste of money, but I think Melo asked for help to try and make the playoffs and Phil tried to do that. It hasn't all come together and Thank God Rose is an expiring contract cuz he simply isn't giving max effort nor playing TEAM BALL. BJ just isn't that good but he does try. Melo takes too many plays off on the defensive end and has abandoned DadMelo to the detriment of the team.

I think Phil would agree that he's spent too much for very little results. I fully expect him to move towards a full rebuild at this point.

Phil didn’t spent money, we wasted money and resources, you are expecting a full rebuild yet for all we hear, the Knicks are pushing hard for Kevin Love. That goes your management.

KnicksFE wrote:Phil Jackson is the main reason why the Knicks are so bad, he is the architect of this team and he did a horrible job building it. He has not learned from his past mistakes and most of his trades/moves/signings have not workout. Phil wants to blame Melo, but it was him who put this roster together without realizing the main players he was getting were excellent THREE years ago. This past off season instead of gambling on young players with some upside, he over paid on declining veterans. Please note that I am not defending Melo, I’m just not blaming him for Phil’s HORRIBLE JOB.

Where have you been all my life? Lol. Agree 100% Just watch out for the Lin lovers and Denver trade haters, They have a made up list of why its Melo's fault and not anyone else. Specially the guy that drafted Unicorn. (Not Gaines)

We knew once Melo signed the dotted line it was gonna be an ugly divorce the age factor along with his one way street as a player, there was no way there would have been an amicable parting.

To me right now I find Melo's play disgraceful he never tried to learn the right way of play. All he had to do was watch his buddies LeBron and Wade they almost always average 5 or more assists. Phil for all his faults he has done one thing that I wished other GMs would have done that is keep the picks. Phil is trying hard to create a team aura but guys like Melo and Rose can't conform their game to fit the team game. Phil is trying to correct his mistakes at least he is acknowledging his mistake.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks drafted Kristaps Porzingis. When teams usually get a young franchise big, or a young talent they want to develop, 9 out of 10 times they trade away the older declining star that is hogging the ball. It's just how it works. It's almost never worked, a young draft pick coming in and a player on his couple of years. There may be some rare instances but this was definitely not the area. Kristaps is a starting 4 that can play 5. Melo's best position is 4. It will never work.

Melo played in NY under D'Antoni, Woodson and Fisher. The results were all more or less the same. He did not like D'Antoni's system. D'Antoni quit in large part because Melo did not want to move to 4 (And Amare 5) and saw the team wasn't responding to him. Woodson had one good year, and the next year was really bad. Similar to our last year. Were the results before Phil came over any better with a younger, better Melo? The answer is a big fat no.

Phil won't be with the Knicks for much longer. I can't see him be here for more than 2 more years. In that time if he changes the foundation of this franchise to being one where they have young players like Kristaps, and other players who come here drafted, and we rebuild properly, I have absolutely no problem with it.

The bottom line is if the Knicks had drafted Mudiay, they would be talking about something completely different right now. The team would still be clinging onto Melo for dear life because he's the only player they had who was any good. The fact that they got another player now, who plays virtually the same position Melo should, and that Melo has each of the last few years declined in production and shooting, it only makes it a no brainer to deal Melo.

Any GM with a smart mind deals Melo in this situation. Now I don't know if Phil's mind **** games and all the barbs in the media and all the other **** is smart. I think the right way to approach this is to talk to Melo, and work with him on a trade. That's been the big problem with this, Phil seems to love just ****ing with everyone's head, Melo's, the media's. The fans. It's pretty crazy he's doing this, but I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Is Melo actually willing to waive his NTC? What if the only way Melo waives his NTC is if Phil mind ****s and drives him crazy through the press and all this drama? I don't know. As much as Melo has said he would consider it if they came to him, I speculate that all his actions show that he would simply say "Nah, I'm not interested in being traded".

Agree. No other choice. And it will never work.

Woodson was good both years. Melo was near MVP. The issue was the paly of Smith and Shump. And 37 may be more than any of the last three years under Phil.

The rebuild will take more than 2 guys. Specially the way KP is playing now that teams know his game.

Mudiay would have us winning. No knock on KP but he fills a position we lack. KP just creates more guys out of position.

Agree with going the mature way. But Phil has never done that. Ask Kobe, MJ, Lakers and his Ex. Hopefully the find a mature end to this as there is no denying it is over.

Woodson 54 game was started by great play by Kidd and Sheed, and finished with a great month by Melo. Nobody said Melo doe not have talent, but that was 4 years ago.

You went Mudiay over KP.

You lost any cred right there.