newyorker4ever wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Only in NY would their be some rebellion to choosing a 2nd year 7'3 athletic big with elite rim protection and legit NBA level shooting guard skills over players who have never won anywhere as the top dogs - who have and will command TEN times the salary of the younger 21 year old.

KP has his faults. Dude also makes 5 million. Rose n Melo make a combined 50 million. Maybe that's why there's more expectation out of them? Maybe because KP is basically a kid learning the game and isn't expected to have veteran smarts. Melo andRose are vets who should bring high IQ veteran plays to the team. Huge difference.

In value KP >>> Rose >> Melo. Age, contract, upside all part of that.

KP is basically a kid learning the game?? Hahahaha WTF are you talking about?? You guys gotta stop with these things that get said about KP and stop treating him like a 12 year old kid. KP has been playing the game and knows the game for a while now, just cause he's 21 doesn't mean he doesn't know the game.

I get some are butt hurt that Melo is getting his ass shipped out of town. Don't let the Melo stats fool you. He and Rose have been a disaster and it has nothing to do with KP. KP without Melo this year puts up better numbers without question. Without question. Does it lead to more wins? Probably no. But yes Melo is holding KP back. If KP got full time treatment like he does with the 2nd unit, he would get 5-6 more shots a game and would be set up more with easier baskets. It would not take away KP's flaws. Such as foul machine. Not rotating or recognizing the perimeter shooter on a rotation soon enough. Settling for playing way too outside the arc. I know his flaws well. I just also know he's a much better player without Melo and Rose than he is with them. Just like most talented young players would be. Pair KP with Ricky Rubio and he averges more shots and more quality touches. Doesn't mean the team overall is better, it just means individually KP develops better and the team is better for it in the longrun.

Why do you think teams with great young draft picks in the lottery trade away their aging stars? It's rare you see a team do what the Knicks did. They had an aging star and drafted KP, not knowing KP would be as good as he is this early in his career. Usually when a player 21 years of age, with talent like KP and giving you better than Dirk Nowitzki production at the same age comes to a team, you see that team remove the aging stars that take plays away from him. It's the way the NBA always has run. When T-Mac was in his prime, Orlando traded him right after they drafted Dwight Howard. Why? They were re-building with Dwight in mind. Now I don't know how good or great KP will be, but there's no way they will find out if they keep him playing between Melo and Rose. No effing way. He needs to play in situations like with the 2nd unit, for 2 years, to see whether he's good enough to carry a team or if he'S more of a 2nd option. One's thing for sure, Melo sure isn't going to win anything being this team's first or second option.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Only in NY would their be some rebellion to choosing a 2nd year 7'3 athletic big with anchoring and NBA level shooting guard skills over players who have never won anywhere as the top dogs who have and will command TEN times the salary of the younger 21 year old.

KP has his faults. Dude also makes 5 million. Rose n Melo make a combined 50 million. Maybe that's why there's more expectation out of them?

EXACTLY!!! How are we switching the responsibility onto KP??? The Vets are supposed to be here to show them the way! I'm sorry but I did this breakdown and watched to see what was actually happening and it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that the flow and rhythm, the trust and confidence of the players gets thrown out of whack with how Rose and Melo play.

I don't believe the offense should flow thru Melo as much as it does. When Rose and Melo get the ball it stops and really messes up the way everyone else plays. We all know KP can play better than he's looked. I'm convinced that if and when KP plays with teammates that play TEAM BALL we will see his game improve dramatically.

So tell me something, if melo and rose stop the ball so much(which I do agree) why are we still losing when they don't play.

Are rose and melo the reason KP fouls like there's no tomorrow?

Why is KP saying he is better when melo is on the floor, why is everybody else saying he's not?

I know this is hard to believe but KP is a natural RIM PROTECTOR and one of the best in the league!!! A big problem on D is Rose and Melo in particular:

nyknickzingis wrote:I know this will come across as being convenient timing, but when the Knicks traded for Rose, I was reading another board and they were plenty of posters who had seen Rose play who said "Poor KP, good luck getting the ball with Rose and Melo". There were plenty more comments. I dismissed it as hate at the time. I also had my own doubts, but I thought Melo and Rose would see how they had a great chance here to play unselfish team first basketball. Instead they came to the team with the EXACT same attitude as if they were in Chicago or Melo in his prime in Denver. Both played to shoot first, and shoot early to dominate. Rose maybe was not as aggressive, but he still rarely if ever looked to pass on his drives.

Anyway, the flaws in KP's game are his. The fact that he doesn't get the ball in good spots with Melo and Rose is on them being bad fits together and Melo/Rose being bad playmakers. It's ok, because KP is still capable to get his shots, because Horny runs a very high paced offense compared to Fisher. However if you ran last year's pace with this year's team, KP is actually getting less shots off than last year. Incredible right? Nope. That's the cost of playing with Melo and Rose. It would happen to virtually any big who played with them. They are not players who ever played with a talented big man and played off him. They just don't know basketball that way.

If KP switched teams with Towns, KP's numbers and shots would go up, considerably. Towns would go down. KP wouldn't put up as many great games as Towns, because Towns is a better player. However, KP would get more chances to develop and better feeds from Rubio and LaVine than he ever does from Rose/Melo on a consistent game to game basis. And while Towns would have made us better than with KP, Towns numbers and shots would regress a little. It's just how it is, because when you have two ball dominant perimeter players like Melo and Rose and they don't alter or adjust their games, someone suffers. Someone's going to take less shots. Ain't gonna be Rose. He's taking and putting up as many points as he did in Chicago the last 2 years. Ain't gonna be Melo, he's getting his up. But great players and great veterans who want to win do those things. Look at the numbers of KG, Pierce and Allen when they got together in Boston. All 3 put their egos and numbers aside. Focused on defense. Focused on teamwork. Result was a ring the very first year. Not to say KP/Melo/Rose could match that, but if they had approached the season the same way, we'd be a playoff team right now and not be talking about trading Melo and dumping Rose.

Melo was much more into being a leader last year so I fully expected him to be the same this year after all why would he not continue to help the younger players to excel??? Rose talked a good game before the season and he's had a few games where he was much more willing to pass the ball but he's not consistent with his effort on both ends. That really hurts the team and of course KP.

I urge anyone to rewatch any game and just pay attention to Rose or Melo and see what they actually do. See how much of what they do is not Team Oriented. See how that impact the other players. This just hasn't worked. Not because of talent but because of a lack of willingness to be Team Leaders and play a Team Game. Rose has all this scoring around him and yet isn't putting up higher assists than in recent years??? People want to make this about Phil tho.

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:So you're showing us what we're all already saying is going on??

YES MF'er, but i'm making it easier for those who have DOUBTED this to see exactly what is going on. WTF man? If this is all you had to contribute you could've just kept that to yourself. This is necessary IMO, because a lot of people are blaming crap on the young guys when it's the top guys like Melo and Rose who are not leading the way.

and BRIGGS WTF are you goin on about?

BRIGGS wrote:This is a bunch of BS. KP hasnt played well. Where was this when he was avg over 20 with the same guys. KP has poor shot selection and his IQ isnt as high for the whole game as is his work ethic.

He takes a bunch of bad shots--hes a non passer, hes an inconsistent rebounder --he doesnt or cant guard the perimeter well. Hes got his own work to correct.

Part of the big reason KP has looked so out of sorts is EXACTLY what i'm trying to point out to you!!! DO you not see the examples of the lack of proper ball movement and timing? When you don't make the right plays that sets up bad shots and a lack of rhythm. So it's not just KP suddenly not knowing how to play.

Also I didn't show the bad D from Rose and Melo that actually puts the other players in bad spots. You wanna kill the 21 year old kid for not being perfect and OVERCOMING the BS that Rose and Melo create with selfish basketball. GTFOH!!!

I'm just tired of guys looking in the wrong direction and assuming that when a player looks bad that it's always their fault. In KP's case it's not all his fault. Rose and Melo are setting him up to look worse than he is. BAD F'n BASKETBALL by your top players leads to bad decisions from everyone.

MAYBE just MAYBE if Melo and Rose passed KP would get the idea that he should pass more!!! YOU F'n guys are pissing me off. GET WITH THE PROGRAM and pay F'n ATTENTION to what's going on. JESUS!!! I'm DONE with this kind of dumb ass thinking. It's all right there in pictures for you and you think this is about KP???

Well said Nixluva. Melo and Rose are still ball dominating players. This doesn't help the development of young players. Why else KP thrives playing better with the bench? The bench plays like a team fundamentally sound and all. Still waiting for Melo and Rose to become all around players and let KP free reign like the bench do KP. I be waiting like

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Only in NY would their be some rebellion to choosing a 2nd year 7'3 athletic big with anchoring and NBA level shooting guard skills over players who have never won anywhere as the top dogs who have and will command TEN times the salary of the younger 21 year old.

KP has his faults. Dude also makes 5 million. Rose n Melo make a combined 50 million. Maybe that's why there's more expectation out of them?

EXACTLY!!! How are we switching the responsibility onto KP??? The Vets are supposed to be here to show them the way! I'm sorry but I did this breakdown and watched to see what was actually happening and it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that the flow and rhythm, the trust and confidence of the players gets thrown out of whack with how Rose and Melo play.

I don't believe the offense should flow thru Melo as much as it does. When Rose and Melo get the ball it stops and really messes up the way everyone else plays. We all know KP can play better than he's looked. I'm convinced that if and when KP plays with teammates that play TEAM BALL we will see his game improve dramatically.

So tell me something, if melo and rose stop the ball so much(which I do agree) why are we still losing when they don't play.

Are rose and melo the reason KP fouls like there's no tomorrow?

Why is KP saying he is better when melo is on the floor, why is everybody else saying he's not?

KP is a good young man. He's sticking up for his teammate and really I would not expect that KP wants to be left all alone like that. Still what I post is true and you can see it with your own eyes. As for the fouls a lot of that is KP being young and gangly. But a lot of it is due to the poor D of his teammates that he tries to clean up.

I know this is hard to believe but KP is a natural RIM PROTECTOR and one of the best in the league!!! A big problem on D is Rose and Melo in particular:

I for one, really appreciate your breakdowns. They are fantastic. Yes, KP has flaws but they seem to be exposed more when he plays with Melo and Rose. If he was in a system that MAXIMIZED his talents, he would feel more comfortable.

I am glad you showed these Melo defensive misqueues. I watched the game and saw the same thing. He does it all the time. Mostly right after he shoots whether it goes in or not. I can get kind of understand if it misses but on a make he is still slow getting back which makes the entire team off balance on D. It happens every game 10-15 times.

Plus one for the bold. Very much appreciated. Thanks for the effort

Moonangie wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Only in NY would their be some rebellion to choosing a 2nd year 7'3 athletic big with anchoring and NBA level shooting guard skills over players who have never won anywhere as the top dogs who have and will command TEN times the salary of the younger 21 year old.

KP has his faults. Dude also makes 5 million. Rose n Melo make a combined 50 million. Maybe that's why there's more expectation out of them?

EXACTLY!!! How are we switching the responsibility onto KP??? The Vets are supposed to be here to show them the way! I'm sorry but I did this breakdown and watched to see what was actually happening and it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that the flow and rhythm, the trust and confidence of the players gets thrown out of whack with how Rose and Melo play.

I don't believe the offense should flow thru Melo as much as it does. When Rose and Melo get the ball it stops and really messes up the way everyone else plays. We all know KP can play better than he's looked. I'm convinced that if and when KP plays with teammates that play TEAM BALL we will see his game improve dramatically.

So tell me something, if melo and rose stop the ball so much(which I do agree) why are we still losing when they don't play.

Are rose and melo the reason KP fouls like there's no tomorrow?

Why is KP saying he is better when melo is on the floor, why is everybody else saying he's not?

They are ball stoppers who also happen to score most of our points. That's why we lose if they don't play. But the offense flows when they're not on the floor, and that gets the rest of the team into rhythm and contributing. But they're not elite scorers like Melo/Rose, so...

Still, it's better to have a team game than an ISO mid-range/ISO rim-attack game that Melo/Rose offer, while everyone else stands around.

And there's no question that Melo/Rose give the least effort on Defense of all the players on the team.

If we had $50M to spend on players who could help what we have without Melo/Rose, I'm quite sure this team could win games.

Chandler wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Only in NY would their be some rebellion to choosing a 2nd year 7'3 athletic big with anchoring and NBA level shooting guard skills over players who have never won anywhere as the top dogs who have and will command TEN times the salary of the younger 21 year old.

KP has his faults. Dude also makes 5 million. Rose n Melo make a combined 50 million. Maybe that's why there's more expectation out of them?

EXACTLY!!! How are we switching the responsibility onto KP??? The Vets are supposed to be here to show them the way! I'm sorry but I did this breakdown and watched to see what was actually happening and it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that the flow and rhythm, the trust and confidence of the players gets thrown out of whack with how Rose and Melo play.

I don't believe the offense should flow thru Melo as much as it does. When Rose and Melo get the ball it stops and really messes up the way everyone else plays. We all know KP can play better than he's looked. I'm convinced that if and when KP plays with teammates that play TEAM BALL we will see his game improve dramatically.

So tell me something, if melo and rose stop the ball so much(which I do agree) why are we still losing when they don't play.

Are rose and melo the reason KP fouls like there's no tomorrow?

Why is KP saying he is better when melo is on the floor, why is everybody else saying he's not?

They are ball stoppers who also happen to score most of our points. That's why we lose if they don't play. But the offense flows when they're not on the floor, and that gets the rest of the team into rhythm and contributing. But they're not elite scorers like Melo/Rose, so...

Still, it's better to have a team game than an ISO mid-range/ISO rim-attack game that Melo/Rose offer, while everyone else stands around.

And there's no question that Melo/Rose give the least effort on Defense of all the players on the team.

Better explanation is that if you had $50 million out of your lineup it would hurt most teams,

If we had $50M to spend on players who could help what we have without Melo/Rose, I'm quite sure this team could win games.

should see the celts payroll. tons of good players on the cheap, e.g., Isiah is at like 6.5 mill. amir is their worst contract and he's like 10-11 (not back-breaking).

I think at this point Phil realizes that there are no big names that can fix this mess. He's simply at a turning point in the team's philosophy and REBUILDING is the only option left. He prepared well by have 3 picks in this draft and I think he realizes that is the direction they need to go in at this point.

The danger is that this team could actually win just enough games to mess up the draft positioning. I think that's why Phil is going to have to look to make some deals to get the Vets out of here. Rose had SUCH a good opportunity to excel here. He's healthy enough and all he had to do was D up and pass the ball. Work harder to be a playmaking PG and use all the weapons he had a round him. I just think he's left a lot in the locker room and not enough on the floor.

Rose and Melo both needed to take more of a sacrificing for the team role this year. More D and passing and less scoring and calling their own numbers. This team should've worked much better than it has. They blew a lot of wins on a lack of effort.

Chandler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Chandler wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Only in NY would their be some rebellion to choosing a 2nd year 7'3 athletic big with anchoring and NBA level shooting guard skills over players who have never won anywhere as the top dogs who have and will command TEN times the salary of the younger 21 year old.

KP has his faults. Dude also makes 5 million. Rose n Melo make a combined 50 million. Maybe that's why there's more expectation out of them?

EXACTLY!!! How are we switching the responsibility onto KP??? The Vets are supposed to be here to show them the way! I'm sorry but I did this breakdown and watched to see what was actually happening and it's CRYSTAL CLEAR that the flow and rhythm, the trust and confidence of the players gets thrown out of whack with how Rose and Melo play.

I don't believe the offense should flow thru Melo as much as it does. When Rose and Melo get the ball it stops and really messes up the way everyone else plays. We all know KP can play better than he's looked. I'm convinced that if and when KP plays with teammates that play TEAM BALL we will see his game improve dramatically.

So tell me something, if melo and rose stop the ball so much(which I do agree) why are we still losing when they don't play.

Are rose and melo the reason KP fouls like there's no tomorrow?

Why is KP saying he is better when melo is on the floor, why is everybody else saying he's not?

They are ball stoppers who also happen to score most of our points. That's why we lose if they don't play. But the offense flows when they're not on the floor, and that gets the rest of the team into rhythm and contributing. But they're not elite scorers like Melo/Rose, so...

Still, it's better to have a team game than an ISO mid-range/ISO rim-attack game that Melo/Rose offer, while everyone else stands around.

And there's no question that Melo/Rose give the least effort on Defense of all the players on the team.

Better explanation is that if you had $50 million out of your lineup it would hurt most teams,

If we had $50M to spend on players who could help what we have without Melo/Rose, I'm quite sure this team could win games.

should see the celts payroll. tons of good players on the cheap, e.g., Isiah is at like 6.5 mill. amir is their worst contract and he's like 10-11 (not back-breaking).

I think at this point Phil realizes that there are no big names that can fix this mess. He's simply at a turning point in the team's philosophy and REBUILDING is the only option left. He prepared well by have 3 picks in this draft and I think he realizes that is the direction they need to go in at this point.

The danger is that this team could actually win just enough games to mess up the draft positioning. I think that's why Phil is going to have to look to make some deals to get the Vets out of here. Rose had SUCH a good opportunity to excel here. He's healthy enough and all he had to do was D up and pass the ball. Work harder to be a playmaking PG and use all the weapons he had a round him. I just think he's left a lot in the locker room and not enough on the floor.

Rose and Melo both needed to take more of a sacrificing for the team role this year. More D and passing and less scoring and calling their own numbers. This team should've worked much better than it has. They blew a lot of wins on a lack of effort.

agree a 100%. the point of my post was to agree with nykickzingis. people say look how team plays without melo and rose, but they don't consider the real comparable would be without melo and rose and instead have some other combination of talent costing roughly 50 million. You can get a lot of talent for 50 million if you're smart. Usually not done by chasing max players unless they're of the KD, Lebron, Curry variety (i.e., worth way more than max).

very disappointed with Rose. I'm happy he seems healthy but he passes his man off way to easily on Dee, and while he gets to the rim very well it's telling how few alley oops or wrap arounds he has as the bigs collapse on him.

For all the shortcomings of Noah (another disappointment) I can't complain about his effort. (he needs to see a hypnotist or something about his offense)

You're DEAD ON with all of this. I mean really this team has massive amounts of money in Rose and Melo and they both have been a drag on the team rather than a NET positive. People really have to get past the scoring they do and look at everything else. The lack of D and the negative impact they have on the overall offense and defense is huge. As starters they are on the floor over 32 minutes a game and during that time they are not really helping the team to excel.

Advanced 
Player	               Age  G   MP    PER   TS%  3PAr  FTr  ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL%  BLK%  TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS  WS/48  OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
Kyle O'Quinn	       26   51  760   20.2  .547 .030 .182  14.6  25.2  19.9  12.6  1.2   6.6   13.9  18.6  1.3  1.1  2.3  .147	-0.4   3.1   2.6  0.9
Willy Hernangomez      22   45  679   18.2  .569 .049 .278  13.3  27.5  20.3  10.3  1.2	  2.7   17.2  19.1  0.9	 0.8  1.7  .118	-1.2   0.5  -0.7  0.2
Carmelo Anthony	       32   52  1755  18.9  .537 .294 .277   2.7  16.4   9.5  15.2  1.2   1.0    8.5  29.6  2.9  1.1  4.0  .109	 2.0  -2.2  -0.2  0.8
Joakim Noah	       31   46	1015  15.1  .495 .005 .390  16.6  25.5  21.0  14.0  1.5   2.9   19.8  12.3  1.1  1.2  2.3  .108	-0.6   2.9   2.3  1.1
Kristaps Porzingis     21   45	1490  17.2  .548 .328 .262   5.4  17.8  11.6   6.3  1.0   4.8    9.7  24.0  1.8  1.4  3.3  .105	 0.2  -0.2   0.0  0.7
Courtney Lee	       31   48  1493  11.5  .557 .405 .120   2.7   8.5   5.6   8.8  1.4   0.9    7.2  13.6  2.0  0.5  2.5  .081	 0.5  -0.7  -0.2  0.7
Justin Holiday         27   53	1047  12.4  .547 .521 .192   2.0  14.0   7.9   8.5  2.1   1.4   10.6  16.6  0.9  0.8  1.7  .080	-0.4  -0.6  -0.9  0.3
Mindaugas Kuzminskas   27   46	667   13.1  .533 .475 .178   5.1   9.2   7.1  10.1  1.9   1.1   10.9  18.8  0.6  0.4  1.0  .071	 0.2  -1.8  -1.6  0.1
Brandon Jennings       27   53	1328  13.0  .516 .469 .323   1.5   9.9   5.7  28.3  2.0   0.2   18.3  18.1  0.9  0.7  1.6  .058	-0.1  -2.0  -2.1  0.0
Derrick Rose           28   44	1410  15.9  .510 .077 .229   3.8   9.1   6.5  23.0  1.1   0.9	12.6  26.3  1.0  0.4  1.4  .049	-0.4  -2.0  -2.4 -0.1
Sasha Vujacic          32   28	229    8.4  .460 .563 .234   1.4  14.1   7.7  13.8  1.9   0.7	12.4  15.1  0.0  0.2  0.1  .031	-2.7  -1.3  -4.0 -0.1
Lance Thomas           28   30	527    6.5  .484 .350 .143   3.0   8.6   5.8   4.2  1.3   0.5	 9.7  13.4  0.0  0.2  0.2  .016	-3.0  -1.7  -4.7 -0.4
Ron Baker              23   26	290    8.2  .467 .446 .217   2.2  12.2   7.2  13.1  2.6   0.8	18.0  16.4 -0.2  0.2  0.0  .000	-3.4  -0.5  -3.9 -0.1
Maurice Ndour          24   19	141   11.8  .542 .132 .263   6.0  13.7   9.8   1.0  2.8   1.1   10.5  14.4  0.1  0.1  0.2  .081	-3.3  -1.4  -4.7 -0.1
Marshall Plumlee       24    7	64     8.8  .678 .000 1.500 13.2  15.1  14.2   8.1  0.8   2.5   37.6   7.1  0.1  0.0  0.1  .072	-2.0   0.9  -1.1  0.0

nixluva wrote:I know there has been a lot of back and forth about the impact of Rose and Melo on KP and the team in general, so I wanted to do one of my usual Breakdowns to highlight the points I've been trying to make. It's not JUST Rose and Melo but they are the BIGGEST sources of the lack of ball and player movement and stagnation. This leads to lower energy and bad shooting from the rest of the team. ON top of that the lack of D from Rose and Melo simply makes it even worse.

Here is a set that is supposed to be a version of my favorite KP play but rather than having Kuz as the Post player and Sasha setting a great pick, we have Melo in the Post and KOQ setting the Pindown for KP. It was HORRIBLE. Melo never waits and looks to pass. He goes right into his post move and KOQ's Screen is OK but his man is able to get back out to KP since Melo doesn't deliver the pass. Also Rose's lack of 3pt threat allows his man to slip into the paint.

This play is again the very simple play with lots of passing options for Melo if he's willing. KP is WIDE OPEN and Melo just ignores him. Melo forces into a double and turns it over.

Here Melo should pass out to CLee for the open 3 since Swaggy P leaves to come double.

Here Rose gets the Screen from KP and puts his head down and drives into a double but never looks for KP who slides back behind the 3pt line and is wide open or even the dump off to KOQ.

There are more examples but I think this is a good idea of just why things are so bad at the start of games. If Melo and Rose were more interested in TEAM BALL and actually made the defense work harder by passing the ball it would completely transform the offense. The lack of EFFORT on D from Rose and Melo is even worse. There is no question that the problem is really Rose and Melo.

Can we do one on KP? KO? Entire second unit when Melo has been out? ...No?