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Devastating blow to spend 30mm on Noah and Lee
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CrushAlot
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1/18/2017  4:40 PM
I think the Knicks can move Lee if they want to at the deadline. He has a reasonable contract and could fill a role for a team that is competing for something.
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ESOMKnicks
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1/18/2017  4:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2017  4:44 PM
I did not like the Rose trade and the signing of Noah that it triggered either. But in retrospect, what else could have Phil done in the offseason to try to meaningfully upgrade the roster? The biggest need was a starting-caliber PG and there was not one available, given the ridiculous contract that Conley got. So at best we would have ended up with Jennings or Deron Williams or Jeremy Lin as our starting PG, and none of these guys are tearing it up. And Lopez at C would have been cheaper, but not much more productive than Noah is now.

And after we got Rose for Lopez it was now a starting C rather than a PG that we needed. And by that time the options also became limited it was down to Noah or Dwight.

So, honestly, hard to chart a better scenario for the last offseason than the way Phil played it.
CrushAlot
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1/18/2017  4:46 PM
ESOMKnicks wrote:I did not like the Rose trade and the signing of Noah that it triggered either. But in retrospect, what else could have Phil done in the offseason to try to meaningfully upgrade the roster? The biggest need was a starting-caliber PG and there was not one available, given the ridiculous contract that Conley got. So at best we would have ended up with Jennings or Deron Williams or Jeremy Lin as our starting PG, and none of these guys are tearing it up. And Lopez at C would have been cheaper, but not much more productive than Noah is now.

And after we got Rose for Lopez it was now a starting C rather than a PG that we needed. And by that time the options also became limited it was down to Noah or Dwight.

So, honestly, hard to chart a better scenario for the last offseason than the way Phil played it.

Good points. Going into the offseason the scenario was Wroten/Grant.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
yellowboy90
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1/18/2017  5:02 PM
fishmike wrote:more or less devastating than signing Allan Crabbe to $18mm a year?

#posterContext

WHy do you keep bringing him up as an example. Crabbe is younger and can improve so you pay for potential. Lee is 31 y/o and will get worse. Crabbe plays behind one of the best shooting 2 guards in the league while Lee plays behind Ron Baker.

I'd trade Lee for Crabbe right now. It might not make a difference this year but it will going forward.
franco12
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1/18/2017  5:03 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:I did not like the Rose trade and the signing of Noah that it triggered either. But in retrospect, what else could have Phil done in the offseason to try to meaningfully upgrade the roster? The biggest need was a starting-caliber PG and there was not one available, given the ridiculous contract that Conley got. So at best we would have ended up with Jennings or Deron Williams or Jeremy Lin as our starting PG, and none of these guys are tearing it up. And Lopez at C would have been cheaper, but not much more productive than Noah is now.

And after we got Rose for Lopez it was now a starting C rather than a PG that we needed. And by that time the options also became limited it was down to Noah or Dwight.

So, honestly, hard to chart a better scenario for the last offseason than the way Phil played it.

Good points. Going into the offseason the scenario was Wroten/Grant.

Phil could have kept Calderon, Lopez - added maybe Jennings - now, he signed for $5m - doubt that he would have if we had had more money.

But at the end of the day, results matter.

We're on pace to win 35 games.

That is an improvement of 3 games.

And the way they are playing of late - we might not make it there.

So if we had kept Lopez, perhaps kept Derrick Williams, perhaps added Jennings and maybe still Lee - or heck, just gone with all the youth Phil added - chances are our record would be comparable to where it is today, and done so cheaper and with the benefit of developing players to be part of a winning franchise.
ESOMKnicks
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1/18/2017  5:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2017  5:32 PM
The difference is, had Rose and Noah returned to their previous form, the Knicks could have been a contender. While keeping Calderon and Lopez would have generated the comparable poor result for sure. And the fact that it would have been cheaper is completely irrelevant, it is not like MSG would have lowered ticket prices.

And I don't think we are in any worse shape for developing players now than we would have been without getting Rose/Noah. Unless you see Jerian as the one and only that got away.

Look, I too was loath to see cap room signed away on players that carried the risk of turning out mediocre. But reality has proven that cap space has limited value, and it is getting ever harder to poach another team's star free agent.
fitzfarm
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1/18/2017  5:46 PM
I think the contracts are not that bad with the new cap . Plus having Noah and Lee to solidify the bench and bring that veteran presence is huge ... let's not forget Noah is playing better and Lee has always been solid off the bench. Both are movable pieces as well... it's not the end of the world having these vets come off the bench ...baker and kuz are huge surprises and when KP comes back our starting 5 is going to be really good . And if not we have our pick
gunsnewing
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1/18/2017  6:04 PM
fishmike wrote:
MS wrote:Noah made no sense with the years. Would have made more sense to max Harrison Barnes and move melo to the 4 slot.

Lee is fine. Every wing in the nba that can knock down a three pointer is over paid. he's an easy piece to move. Noah is going to be productive for 1 season and then dead weight.

It's amazing how we keep recreating the same team after we pretend to rebuild.

Its amazing how we have GM that finally values the draft, didnt trade the lottery pick, drafted a star player and has refused to trade future picks, yet the fan base says its just recreating the same team year after year. Maybe we should trade KP for Harrison Barnes.

That's like treating a high fever from strep throat with analgesics and ignoring the infection
knicks1248
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1/18/2017  7:11 PM
when rose blows by everybody and every team he plays, more credit goes to rose then "Bad Defense". They played in a defensive system that was more team orientated, so everyone flaws are basically covered.

Our defensive thought process is so different from most of the league. Our players get exposed and we dont have that true defensive guy thats going to inflict his energy on our non defensive guys.

The effort level is suspect, and the reactions are late.."FOUL" 2 free shots..Thats our defense

ES
franco12
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1/18/2017  7:15 PM
ESOMKnicks wrote:The difference is, had Rose and Noah returned to their previous form, the Knicks could have been a contender. While keeping Calderon and Lopez would have generated the comparable poor result for sure. And the fact that it would have been cheaper is completely irrelevant, it is not like MSG would have lowered ticket prices.

And I don't think we are in any worse shape for developing players now than we would have been without getting Rose/Noah. Unless you see Jerian as the one and only that got away.

Look, I too was loath to see cap room signed away on players that carried the risk of turning out mediocre. But reality has proven that cap space has limited value, and it is getting ever harder to poach another team's star free agent.

Actually Rose and Noah have returned to form - basically on par where they were in the last few years - not when they were an MVP and in their prime.
Jmpasq
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1/18/2017  7:32 PM
smackeddog wrote:How so? What big FAs are you signing?

Lee is very movable, anyways.

Timing wise, it's going to take KP another 2 years to become elite, if we draft high this season, it will take our rookie a few years- we don't need big cap space for a while

thats ridiculous

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crzymdups
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1/18/2017  9:33 PM
CLee is a good signing and playing great tonight.

Noah... is a problem.

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TripleThreat
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1/18/2017  9:52 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:Lee's contract is good in today's NBA.


If he was 5-6 years younger sure.

He signed the contract at age 31. The 3rd year he will be 33 and the 4th year he will be 34.

He might be effective this year, but those 3rd and 4th years IMHO will get pretty ugly and pretty fast.

Still a big believer that Jackson burned the next three years to marginally improve this year because his legacy was on the line in his mind. Just because you have cap space does not mean you aren't obligated to try to use it well each off season.

Trading Robin Lopez was a net negative move. The domino that fell after was signing Noah.

Long term, these moves IMHO will hurt the Knicks
GoNyGoNyGo
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1/18/2017  10:13 PM
Lee is better off the bench. He is used to it. Not a bust yet.
reub
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1/18/2017  10:20 PM
I think we're five and oh when Noah doesn't play now.
crzymdups
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1/18/2017  10:21 PM
reub wrote:I think we're five and oh when Noah doesn't play now.

We are. I hate to say it, because I like the guy... but the signing was a mistake.

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ESOMKnicks
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1/19/2017  1:01 AM
franco12 wrote:
Actually Rose and Noah have returned to form - basically on par where they were in the last few years - not when they were an MVP and in their prime.

I meant, returned to their MVP and DPY form.

If the Rose and Noah deals hadn't happened, the best scenario for the Knicks would have been a similar but guaranteed sucky record this season for the sake of possibly having more money under the cap this coming offseason. But we have now seen how tough it is to sign another teams's star FA and it is only going to get tougher under the new CBA.
smackeddog
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1/19/2017  3:50 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
smackeddog wrote:How so? What big FAs are you signing?

Lee is very movable, anyways.

Timing wise, it's going to take KP another 2 years to become elite, if we draft high this season, it will take our rookie a few years- we don't need big cap space for a while

thats ridiculous

How so?

We have a max slot free this offseason if Rose isn't re-signed. The following offseason Melo can opt out (likely will), so that free's up another $24mil. Are you saying we need to have more cap space than that within the next 2 years?

Do we actually need $40mil or $50mil cap space this offseason? And a further $50mil to cap space the following offseason? Why? Who are you signing?

You're the one who's being ridiculous- literally no one has answered the question I keep asking in their thread, how is Noah's contract killing us? Who are you wanting to sign and don't have the money for?
Bonn1997
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1/19/2017  7:23 AM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Lee is better off the bench. He is used to it. Not a bust yet.

So 50 mil for a bench player? That's terrier value. Smart teams have good bench players making 3 mil.
Bonn1997
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1/19/2017  7:34 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/19/2017  7:59 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
smackeddog wrote:How so? What big FAs are you signing?

Lee is very movable, anyways.

Timing wise, it's going to take KP another 2 years to become elite, if we draft high this season, it will take our rookie a few years- we don't need big cap space for a while

thats ridiculous

How so?

We have a max slot free this offseason if Rose isn't re-signed. The following offseason Melo can opt out (likely will), so that free's up another $24mil. Are you saying we need to have more cap space than that within the next 2 years?

Do we actually need $40mil or $50mil cap space this offseason? And a further $50mil to cap space the following offseason? Why? Who are you signing?

You're the one who's being ridiculous- literally no one has answered the question I keep asking in their thread, how is Noah's contract killing us? Who are you wanting to sign and don't have the money for?


I've been answering it. There's no point in having 50 or 70 mil bench players who don't even help the team on long-term deals. If you construct a crappy team that doesn't appeal to the top FAs, the only smart option left is to aim for baby steps and fill out the roster with KOQ and Kuz level players. The team wouldn't be worse, and we'd have tradeable assets, and a chance to do better in the next offseason.

This should be part of a full rebuild though where we get rid of all the players who aren't worth their contracts, and use the best metrics (and eyeball observations) to inform future FA signings. This should speed up rebuilding and get us to a point where top FAs want to actually sign here much faster than the forever .400 approach we seem to be taking.
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Devastating blow to spend 30mm on Noah and Lee
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