martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??

is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?

Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.

But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...

I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.

Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...

Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...

Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.

Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.

You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.

I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.

No...Not at all..One thing doesn't mean an endorsement for ISO ball...You have witnessed with your own eyes the first unit offense flows better with Rose than Jennings..You have seen it..On paper, you think it will be better but in reality it hasn't happened..So dynamic and non dynamic doesn't matter...

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??

is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?

Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.

But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...

I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.

Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...

Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...

Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.

Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.

You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.

I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.

No...Not at all..One thing doesn't mean an endorsement for ISO ball...You have witnessed with your own eyes the first unit offense flows better with Rose than Jennings..You have seen it..On paper, you think it will be better but in reality it hasn't happened..So dynamic and non dynamic doesn't matter...

You have, I have not

Rose came in with one objective.....To show that he's healthy enough to warrant a long term deal. And he's still the same play maker like Westbrook from the PG position.

Both came in with different agendas. And both can play as a pass first or shoot first point guard.

Jennings is better right now because he's motivated.....Coming off the bench adds to his motivation. And we need that off the bench, and in crutch time. So it's a tricky situation to be in for Jeff and Phil.

I believe Jennings right now can be a better for the 1st unit at PG than Rose at PG (on the offensive end). But on defense, Rose is a bigger body who can handle the defensive assignment of guarding the top tier PGs in the league better than Jennings. There are two sides to every basketball game, and sometimes we tend to only look at one side of the court.

Also Rose has the ability to turn into Melo and carry a team by himself. I think starting Rose vs jennings isn't the issue....But rather how Jeff Horny uses his rotation and utilizes his PG options is a better discussion.

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??

is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?

Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.

But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...

I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.

Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...

Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...

Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.

Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.

You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.

I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.

No...Not at all..One thing doesn't mean an endorsement for ISO ball...You have witnessed with your own eyes the first unit offense flows better with Rose than Jennings..You have seen it..On paper, you think it will be better but in reality it hasn't happened..So dynamic and non dynamic doesn't matter...

You have, I have not

Then you aren't paying attention..It is obvious and mentioned in the last game thread..Look at Walt's comments about the offense with Jennings from last night's game...

Is this why Rose was pulled from the game against the lowly Timberwolves with 4 mins left to play...? because he was doing exactly what hornacek wanted him to do?
the "fake comeback" by the wolves started long before rose exited from the game. hornacek pulled rose out, kept jennings in and inserted holiday in place of rose.

Cartman718 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??

is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?

Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.

But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...

I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.

Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...

Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...

Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.

Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.

You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.

I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.

No...Not at all..One thing doesn't mean an endorsement for ISO ball...You have witnessed with your own eyes the first unit offense flows better with Rose than Jennings..You have seen it..On paper, you think it will be better but in reality it hasn't happened..So dynamic and non dynamic doesn't matter...

You have, I have not

Then you aren't paying attention..It is obvious and mentioned in the last game thread..Look at Walt's comments about the offense with Jennings from last night's game...

Is this why Rose was pulled from the game against the lowly Timberwolves with 4 mins left to play...? because he was doing exactly what hornacek wanted him to do?
the "fake comeback" by the wolves started long before rose exited from the game. hornacek pulled rose out, kept jennings in and inserted holiday in place of rose.

To your point, clearly what ever Hornecek thought the problem was, removing Rose didn't address the matter...

blkexec wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??

is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?

Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.

But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...

I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.

Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...

Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...

Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.

Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.

You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.

I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.

No...Not at all..One thing doesn't mean an endorsement for ISO ball...You have witnessed with your own eyes the first unit offense flows better with Rose than Jennings..You have seen it..On paper, you think it will be better but in reality it hasn't happened..So dynamic and non dynamic doesn't matter...

You have, I have not

Then you aren't paying attention..It is obvious and mentioned in the last game thread..Look at Walt's comments about the offense with Jennings from last night's game...

Is this why Rose was pulled from the game against the lowly Timberwolves with 4 mins left to play...? because he was doing exactly what hornacek wanted him to do?
the "fake comeback" by the wolves started long before rose exited from the game. hornacek pulled rose out, kept jennings in and inserted holiday in place of rose.

To your point, clearly what ever Hornecek thought the problem was, removing Rose didn't address the matter...

I was watching the game off and on....And I remember them saying the knicks missed their last 10plus shots. So bringing in Jennings could've been a reaction to a stale offense. Sometimes, when you have a scoring PG, he usually turns into a SG in crunch time, which means Melo and KP are left out and cold. Jennings couldve been used to help get Melo and KP back into the game with easier shots. In theory, it was a good move, if that was the case. And Minny doesn't have a PG that Jennings would have problems guarding.

Jennings was always in the game during the Minny's comeback...He hit two threes so Hornacek felt confident with him finishing the game...After pulling Rose it seems the floor were more congested, the offense didn't flow and players were taking tougher shots...

holfresh wrote:

blkexec wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??

is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?

Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.

But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...

I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.

Right, that is not what the starting team needs..Melo and KP are dynamic scorers and needs space not someone to create shots for them....Melo led the league in scoring with no one creating shots for him...

Every team does not need a dynamic PG..Cleveland doesn't need a dynamic PG..GS doesn't need a dynamic PG...Old Heat teams didn't need a dynamic PG..Knicks starting team doesn't need a dynamic PG...

Well then you are advocating iso ball, I'm pushing more ball movement and passing.

Also, I never said that the Knicks DON'T need a dynamic PG ala Cleveland or GS or old Heat teams. We are talking about what style of PG fits best with different players.

You seem to be taking the context and moving it to something it is not.

I do think the Knicks will need exactly what Rose brings when/if they get to the playoffs: a player who can flat out break down the defense and get a bucket. Melo can sorta, kinda do that but his best days are behind him; KP is ready for that yet.

No...Not at all..One thing doesn't mean an endorsement for ISO ball...You have witnessed with your own eyes the first unit offense flows better with Rose than Jennings..You have seen it..On paper, you think it will be better but in reality it hasn't happened..So dynamic and non dynamic doesn't matter...

You have, I have not

Then you aren't paying attention..It is obvious and mentioned in the last game thread..Look at Walt's comments about the offense with Jennings from last night's game...

Is this why Rose was pulled from the game against the lowly Timberwolves with 4 mins left to play...? because he was doing exactly what hornacek wanted him to do?
the "fake comeback" by the wolves started long before rose exited from the game. hornacek pulled rose out, kept jennings in and inserted holiday in place of rose.

To your point, clearly what ever Hornecek thought the problem was, removing Rose didn't address the matter...

I was watching the game off and on....And I remember them saying the knicks missed their last 10plus shots. So bringing in Jennings could've been a reaction to a stale offense. Sometimes, when you have a scoring PG, he usually turns into a SG in crunch time, which means Melo and KP are left out and cold. Jennings couldve been used to help get Melo and KP back into the game with easier shots. In theory, it was a good move, if that was the case. And Minny doesn't have a PG that Jennings would have problems guarding.

Jennings was always in the game during the Minny's comeback...He hit two threes so Hornacek felt confident with him finishing the game...After pulling Rose it seems the floor were more congested, the offense didn't flow and players were taking tougher shots...

Gotcha.....I will start paying more attention to the offense with Rose vs Jennings running the point.

martin wrote:I tell you what... all things aside, I LOVE Jennings as a backup PG. I just don't think he has enough to be a starter on a deep playoff team, just not enough jumpshot. Also, as much as he can pressure the ball and get steals in passing lanes, his PnR defense is not very good IMHO.

But just love him as a sparkplug with the second unit, as well as in a 2-PG unit.

Now, what price could the Knicks pay Jennings and also fill another PG spot?

If we aren't interested in signing Rose long-term at that point, i would be fine running with Jennings and signing Darron Collison. I bet you can get them both for 10m each per year. 20m committed to a quality PG duo that compliment each other pretty well isn't that much. Otherwise, we aren't looking at a ton of options in my opinion. The free agent PG pool looks nice, but it will be tough to land any of the good names.

SupremeCommander wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:So the fact the the offense look completely lost when Jennings plays with the staring unit shouldn't impact the decision??

is that an indictment of Jennings or the first unit?

Also, there have been time when the offense has looked AOK with Jennings out there with them. It's about the dynamic of the TYPE of PG Jennings is versus Rose.

But does it matter who it's an indictment of, if he doesn't fit with the others??..Dynamic Type of PG??..This isn't about aesthetics and taste, this is about winning...Which almost didn't happen after Rose was pulled...

I guess you didn't understand what I meant about the dynamic of the type of PG Jennings is? He's a ball mover and passer these days, the opposite of Rose. Rose is a penetrator and scorer. With the first unit - KP and Melo especially - you already got prime time scorers. Having 3 of those same guys at the same time doesn't make sense.

you forgot to add that Rose is trying to prove that he is still a penetrator and a scorer so he will get paid...

Rose has already proven that when healthy he's still a great PG in this league and if he ends the year healthy with his stats being at what they are right now he's gonna get paid without a doubt.

I'm not arguing that... what I've been suggesting is the Jennings is a better fit for how this team is constructed.

In other words: does what Rose brings to the table benefit the Knicks? Is this Melo + Amar'e pt II? You can't see the redundancy of Melo and Rose? If he's going to get paid truthfully I'd rather reallocate that $25 million or whatever he's going to get to other positions.

Yeah i feel ya on being able to save a ton of money to spend elsewhere if we could trust B.Jennings as our starting full time PG but i'm not quite there yet. D.Rose is still getting his legs under him but if you noticed in the game last night he was starting to shoot more and was making some shots so he's getting better and better every game.

I hate that i'm about to say this cause i've been one of the biggest backers of Melo on here since i'm a Knicks and Syracuse fan but you bring up if it might be Melo/Amare 2.0 with Rose and Melo but the part i hate saying is i don't think the problem would be Rose cause i think from what i'm seeing so far this season that Melo is the problem with running the kind of offense that JH wants to run. He does move around enough when he doesn't have the ball like he's supposed to be doing and when he does get the ball he goes straight iso Melo and even the rest of the guys on the court stop moving around which i'm sure is because they know he won't be passing and he's gonna hold, dribble and take his shot. Now of course it's still way early and i have seen some games/moments when he does pass the ball so i'm hoping he really buys in and things get better as the season goes.

Cartman718 wrote:

blkexec wrote:Jennings signed a 1 yr deal with NY under the broadway lights for a reason. To show that he can be a pass first point guard. This is why Jennings looks better for the team.

Rose came in with one objective.....To show that he's healthy enough to warrant a long term deal. And he's still the same play maker like Westbrook from the PG position.

Both came in with different agendas. And both can play as a pass first or shoot first point guard.

Jennings is better right now because he's motivated.....Coming off the bench adds to his motivation. And we need that off the bench, and in crutch time. So it's a tricky situation to be in for Jeff and Phil.

I believe Jennings right now can be a better for the 1st unit at PG than Rose at PG (on the offensive end). But on defense, Rose is a bigger body who can handle the defensive assignment of guarding the top tier PGs in the league better than Jennings. There are two sides to every basketball game, and sometimes we tend to only look at one side of the court.

Also Rose has the ability to turn into Melo and carry a team by himself. I think starting Rose vs jennings isn't the issue....But rather how Jeff Horny uses his rotation and utilizes his PG options is a better discussion.

it is though, when your coach plays your backup PG way more mins than your starting PG against a team that's 5-12.

BVut that's simply called the coach making the right in game adjustments cause the offense was flowing at that time better with Jennings but even when Jennings was in there in the last 7 minutes of the 4th or however many minutes he was in there for they were still making their comeback against us so it wasn't a Rose or Jennings thing.

martin wrote:I tell you what... all things aside, I LOVE Jennings as a backup PG. I just don't think he has enough to be a starter on a deep playoff team, just not enough jumpshot. Also, as much as he can pressure the ball and get steals in passing lanes, his PnR defense is not very good IMHO.

But just love him as a sparkplug with the second unit, as well as in a 2-PG unit.

Now, what price could the Knicks pay Jennings and also fill another PG spot?

Yeah i'm with you on that. Everyone is thinking about the money saved on letting Rose go for Jennings and how he's bringing that spark but everyone needs to remember what we'd be losing from that second unit if we didn't have Jennings coming in with them. It would be a huge loss.