NYKBocker wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:The price for getting Melo was the reason he is viewed this way. If he just waited for the off season to join us as a FA and had Gallo, The Mayor and Mozzy with him...he would have been revered as a Knick.

Gallo - tell me all about his HOF career so far.
The Mayor - last seen in China, I believe.
Moz - famous for the gifts LeQ sends back to him for getting him a ring. I remember Nazr Mohammed was on the Knicks too at one time; he's got a ring...

You forgot Ray Felton!

that leaves some draft picks and some spare jimmieD change. Really, really high price. Yes hot dayum indeedy, I really wish we had all the chips and success Denver got with all that stuff we gave away...

There are some trades where both teams come out as winners. This looks like one where both came out as losers.

People remember their first impression more than the actual outcome. Knick fans were in love with that group and was romantacizing how Melo could be the final piece for a championship contender if he just waited for free agency and signed for a lower price but still a lot of money. Instead, he forced himself here and left the cubbard bare.

Me personally, I hated the deal, but right now I love Melo. I want him to stay and win one with KP. He grew on me.

People who continually spent their time circle jerking over 4 players who amounted to less than a zit on Melo's arse (one fourth of said zit we got back for nothing), and were posting their brains out immediately after the trade about the Denver Dynasty that actually never happened, who conveniently continue to ignore the uncertainty of what was going to happen immediately after the trade with the new CBA, who also like to say "forced himself here" instead of "Melo wanted to be here".

The cupboard had nothing in it to begin with.

We got our first real franchise star player since Sprewell who got us to the playoffs after 5-6 seasons of nothing.

Most of the insane rabid hater posse are now gone, which essentially shows that all those "true knick fans" were actually just "true fans of their own opinion".

yeah, i said posse.

10 years from now, you'll have people posting on here about how Lin was a better knick than Melo.

Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.

========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt average

Melo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25

King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5

Signature Knick Moments....

King:

"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.

Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.

Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.

Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.

Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1983.html

Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.

King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.

So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.

========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt average

Melo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25

King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5

Signature Knick Moments....

King:

"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.

Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.

Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.

Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.

Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1983.html

It's all about expectations.

Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.

King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.

So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.

I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.

When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.

And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.

Welpee wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.

========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt average

Melo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25

King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5

Signature Knick Moments....

King:

"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.

Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.

Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.

Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.

Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1983.html

It's all about expectations.

Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.

King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.

So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.

I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.

When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.

You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?

And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.

I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.

As so often discussed we left the cupboard empty but the concept of DPOY at the time FluTyson (eating BIllups 14mil and paying Tyson the same in one year!!!!), a Healthy AMare and in prime Melo was a very attractive prospect AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME!!!! If JR smith lived up to his potential, and KIdd just a role player as well as Felton living up to his as a lottery pick there was talent. On that vein, Bargnani was talented!!!

But those oh so many intangables!!!!!! They add up, or in knicks case THEY SUBTRACT!!!!

The above was in line with a dream of McDyess, Vin Backer and Mutumbo with H20.......starphuch concepts never realized are a Dolanesque symptom(Baker was rumored before he went to boston!!).
My point........There was a vision and most of us in the UK are fairly astute even at the time to recognize we have seen this movie before.

Whats different this time? Phil Jax is no dolan stooge. Whats the evidence? This franchise's back bone is not on Melo's shoulders or Rose's knees but on a 7'3 Latvian Wunderkind!!!! Starphuch Rose trade gives us not medical concept of his return, but after this season , basically two full seasons of him back on the floor (last year he played 67 games missing games NOT related to previous injury) BEFORE we sign him long term. If we sign him long term! PHil ate crow about Derek Fisher and fired him, and hired a NON STARPHUCH coach in his place. Phil got Jennings on a make good deal. Phil incubated a EuroStash (Willy) and an unorthodox Euro (Kuz) signing on a late bloomer. These are not Starphuckedly like the past.

earthmansurfer wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.

========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt average

Melo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25

King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5

Signature Knick Moments....

King:

"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.

Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.

Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.

Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.

Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1983.html

It's all about expectations.

Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.

King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.

So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.

I was going to look up the efficiency stat, thanks for posting it. I remembered Bernard as being super efficient, night in and night out. I love having Melo, just wish he could be more efficient here. I would take a healthy Bernard over Melo though, that efficiency is just too attractive. That said, if Melo would learn to pass when his shot is off, he could be a constant force. I think Melo being Melo is where the selfish talks comes up. Too much dribbling and shooting out of frequent slumps, instead of being the team leader than. Not saying that with hate, the guy has the talent and know how to do it, but chooses to be the central point (most nights).

Welpee wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.

========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt average

Melo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25

King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5

Signature Knick Moments....

King:

"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.

Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.

Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.

Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.

Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1983.html

It's all about expectations.

Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.

King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.

So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.

I was going to look up the efficiency stat, thanks for posting it. I remembered Bernard as being super efficient, night in and night out. I love having Melo, just wish he could be more efficient here. I would take a healthy Bernard over Melo though, that efficiency is just too attractive. That said, if Melo would learn to pass when his shot is off, he could be a constant force. I think Melo being Melo is where the selfish talks comes up. Too much dribbling and shooting out of frequent slumps, instead of being the team leader than. Not saying that with hate, the guy has the talent and know how to do it, but chooses to be the central point (most nights).

No doubt, King at his best is clearly better than Melo at his best.

I believe Melo has had a more consistent career as King had a rough time over many years personally. That spills over to the career.
When King came "home", he got laser focused and those two years were magic! He returned to a high level as he had set his bar high.
I watched the "Earnie and Bernie" Documentary on the ESPN "30 on 30" and he really was prone to being withdrawn and going to college in Tennessee when he did was a really bad gig. That set off a pattern of drinking and I would say depression. Melo was coveted as highly in high school and loved in Syracuse! His college career and entry to NBA in another era was far easier.

At there respected apex of their career, I agree King was a better player. If all things were equal, I think King would have been in some higher rating conversations. If that happened, he would have been an allstar for the Nets for years, not fallen from grace and picked up by the knicks after some drinking problems.

Nalod wrote:Over paying Melo over the alternative hypothetical in hindsight is easy to conjure.
To even say if we stuck with Shy Wilson, Gallo, Timo and the picks and what that would have produced is hard to say. That group would have altered draft picks and subsequent moves afterwards, including the acquisition of Bargnani and perhaps landing in the spot where KP was drafted. Its been YEARS since the deal was done and thus to recreate the trajectory of what would have been is nearly impossible. What we do know is Melo would be a Net

As so often discussed we left the cupboard empty but the concept of DPOY at the time FluTyson (eating BIllups 14mil and paying Tyson the same in one year!!!!), a Healthy AMare and in prime Melo was a very attractive prospect AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME!!!! If JR smith lived up to his potential, and KIdd just a role player as well as Felton living up to his as a lottery pick there was talent. On that vein, Bargnani was talented!!!

But those oh so many intangables!!!!!! They add up, or in knicks case THEY SUBTRACT!!!!

The above was in line with a dream of McDyess, Vin Backer and Mutumbo with H20.......starphuch concepts never realized are a Dolanesque symptom(Baker was rumored before he went to boston!!).
My point........There was a vision and most of us in the UK are fairly astute even at the time to recognize we have seen this movie before.

Whats different this time? Phil Jax is no dolan stooge. Whats the evidence? This franchise's back bone is not on Melo's shoulders or Rose's knees but on a 7'3 Latvian Wunderkind!!!! Starphuch Rose trade gives us not medical concept of his return, but after this season , basically two full seasons of him back on the floor (last year he played 67 games missing games NOT related to previous injury) BEFORE we sign him long term. If we sign him long term! PHil ate crow about Derek Fisher and fired him, and hired a NON STARPHUCH coach in his place. Phil got Jennings on a make good deal. Phil incubated a EuroStash (Willy) and an unorthodox Euro (Kuz) signing on a late bloomer. These are not Starphuckedly like the past.

Phil was a starphuck and he is showing it...Without the starphuck Melo and Rose, we are a 20 win team..Noah not a starphuck?

It time to start seeing Phil for what he is, no?

Phil had to make the Noah and Rose moves because MSG have been losing money over the last year, he is trying win games and put fannies in seats, eye on the tubes...So he pulled a starphuck...So is he really not marching to Dolan's tune?..I don't know..All I know if Phil keeps losing money he will be gone...