EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

I guess you expect that to continue? it was one game and it's preseason. And it's a game they were getting bodied from three.

It hasn't been just one game and Sasha want the one getting routinely lost on defense. He's been playing point and guarding point. Sasha played like this last year. He problem was his jumpshot wasn't falling. He's been scoring nicely this preseason. That's all I can see. You have to play the guys that's bringing it. Not the ones that might be because of their reputation.

Sasha does two things well, he plays hard and he pushes the tempo. We have Rose and Jennings for that in front of him. And yes, it was just one game. Usually he's been on the negative side of every +/- in the preseason except this past one game. Not sure of the reputation you speak of

No.. he also shoots well. He does a lot of things, starting with quality veteran play. Something some folks cant grasp. He also EARNED his spot THIS year, with his excellent play to finish LAST year. I understand last season was tough, but Sasha had an excellent finish. 23 games post all star last year he shot .455 from 3 point range, had a .600 true shooting, was +3.3 in the +/-
The guy has earned his spot with his play on the court, and that doesn't even include the fact that he's a triangle guy, a positive locker room presence and a coach on the floor.

Every year the same guys go nuts over some fringe prospect making the roster. Sasha is also 6'7 so he's got size over Baker and Randle as well.

All statistics point to Sasha being below average. Lifetime PER of 11.1 puts him in the lower echelon of players. Some say he played "well" the last 18 games of the season. I would say he "played" the last 18 games of the season. The team went 6-12. So if you are going to credit a player with history for being a veteran, you must accept the shortcomings too. I'm not hot and heavy over any prospect. I see Baker and I say he plays basketball the correct way. Compare Baker fighting over screens to Sasha running under them. That alone was all I needed to see. I see the two as competing for the same spot. I think Sasha is incumbent and has a better chance of keeping that spot, but if you see how they play, Baker has the fundamentals to be a solid 3&D. Sasha is what he is.

I'll admit Sasha is likely to make the team. I just disagree that he should.

You can make the same arguments for Amundson over Plumlee.

And Baker went undrafted so not a single team in the NBA thought he was worth spending a pick on. So there's that also. Is that a shortcoming?

And no... did Amundson play well last year? Did he have an impact? Has Amundson played under current management and won a title? Is Amundson bigger than Plumlee? So no... not really the same argument. Sasha is a 6'7 guard who can play both spots. Right now, today Sasha is a better NBA player than Ron Baker. Your big argument for Baker seems to revolve around upside... are you aware that Baker has essentially been the same player since his sophomore year? Where is the upside in a guy who didn't get better in college? But your expectation is he's got upside in the NBA? Ron Baker's 3 point shooting went DOWN EVERY YEAR in college. He's smaller than Sasha as well. Name one attribute that he brings over Sasha right now.

Yea.. Sasha is what he is... and that better than Ron Baker.

Being undrafted is a statement of the league's present knowledge of a player's skill by the collective NBA. It is an indication that teams do not value him enough to use draft rights. I would suggest it is a good indication that such player will not make it in the NBA. There are exceptions. But on average, I would suggest the likelihood of an undrafted player making an NBA roster is quite low. Let alone 2 in one year for one team. Or three. Or 4. Randle, Kuz, Plumlord and Baker all went undrafted.

It seems to me that Phil Jackson is attempting to work within his own valuations of talent (including Sasha, to my dismay). He had specific commentary that he thought the league (as a whole) overvalued three point shooting in this offseason. He specifically targeted two point guards that were not very proficient 3 point shooters and were, historically, good at getting into the paint and drawing fouls.

Another place where teams are overvaluing players is the ability for a player to mature and develop NBA game. I specifically tend to disagree here (and have argued against 4th year players in the past), because I specifically argue that 'they are what they are' after four years. Maybe more NBA ready, but less upside than a Sophomore player. That also speaks against guys like Baker and more for a "seasoned" veteran.

But this is pretty much my entire point. Given all the feelings I have against 4th year college players that went undrafted, I still think Baker is a better fit for this roster than Sasha. And that is for this one attribute -- I think Baker plays better, harder defense. I think he is going to keep other players more honest in practice with his work ethic. I think he can shoot well. His 3pt stroke looks good. And committing to basketball full time, I think he will show marginal improvement, mostly on the defensive side of the ball.

That's pretty much my entire point. We are arguing over who is more qualified. A below average vet or an undrafted rookie. You want to bring Baker's college career in as a negative? His college PER is 22.1. My point is that they shoot similar percentage from 3 and Baker plays better D. So, being the 4th guard, I take my chances on the Rookie because I always thought Sasha's role on this team was to mentor KP and I think I have other guys for that now.

Sasha's Euro Career:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/sasha-vujacic-1.html

Sasha's NBA Career:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/vujacsa01.html

Baker's College Career
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ron-baker-1.html

All your arguments gainst Baker work against Sasha also.

What is the role for Sasha/Baker? What are your expectations of minutes? This is a role that is going to get spot minutes. A spot start, foul trouble, funny matchups... when Rose rolls an ankle and Jennings is out and we need guard for 10 minutes in the 4th qtr who is giving you better minutes right now today? You think Baker can close games? Please. That's why you have guys with experience. Randle won the 3rd PG role with his play. Sasha is the vet off the bench. This should not so hard to understand.

You want Baker. I disagree. Im done arguing or caring about the 14th or 15th roster spot.

fishmike wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

I guess you expect that to continue? it was one game and it's preseason. And it's a game they were getting bodied from three.

It hasn't been just one game and Sasha want the one getting routinely lost on defense. He's been playing point and guarding point. Sasha played like this last year. He problem was his jumpshot wasn't falling. He's been scoring nicely this preseason. That's all I can see. You have to play the guys that's bringing it. Not the ones that might be because of their reputation.

Sasha does two things well, he plays hard and he pushes the tempo. We have Rose and Jennings for that in front of him. And yes, it was just one game. Usually he's been on the negative side of every +/- in the preseason except this past one game. Not sure of the reputation you speak of

No.. he also shoots well. He does a lot of things, starting with quality veteran play. Something some folks cant grasp. He also EARNED his spot THIS year, with his excellent play to finish LAST year. I understand last season was tough, but Sasha had an excellent finish. 23 games post all star last year he shot .455 from 3 point range, had a .600 true shooting, was +3.3 in the +/-
The guy has earned his spot with his play on the court, and that doesn't even include the fact that he's a triangle guy, a positive locker room presence and a coach on the floor.

Every year the same guys go nuts over some fringe prospect making the roster. Sasha is also 6'7 so he's got size over Baker and Randle as well.

Agreed. He's also shooting over 50% from 3 in the pre-season. It seems like he found his shot, which makes him a very solid backup. He's a backup guard who can play either guard spot and can play 30 minutes a night or 2 minutes and won't complain. He knows the system better than any other player on the team, plays hard, is liked by his teammates, and if he's shooting well he's a + player. And he's signed for the minimum. You'd have to be a real statistical genius not to like Sasha.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

I guess you expect that to continue? it was one game and it's preseason. And it's a game they were getting bodied from three.

It hasn't been just one game and Sasha want the one getting routinely lost on defense. He's been playing point and guarding point. Sasha played like this last year. He problem was his jumpshot wasn't falling. He's been scoring nicely this preseason. That's all I can see. You have to play the guys that's bringing it. Not the ones that might be because of their reputation.

Sasha does two things well, he plays hard and he pushes the tempo. We have Rose and Jennings for that in front of him. And yes, it was just one game. Usually he's been on the negative side of every +/- in the preseason except this past one game. Not sure of the reputation you speak of

No.. he also shoots well. He does a lot of things, starting with quality veteran play. Something some folks cant grasp. He also EARNED his spot THIS year, with his excellent play to finish LAST year. I understand last season was tough, but Sasha had an excellent finish. 23 games post all star last year he shot .455 from 3 point range, had a .600 true shooting, was +3.3 in the +/-
The guy has earned his spot with his play on the court, and that doesn't even include the fact that he's a triangle guy, a positive locker room presence and a coach on the floor.

Every year the same guys go nuts over some fringe prospect making the roster. Sasha is also 6'7 so he's got size over Baker and Randle as well.

Agreed. He's also shooting over 50% from 3 in the pre-season. It seems like he found his shot, which makes him a very solid backup. He's a backup guard who can play either guard spot and can play 30 minutes a night or 2 minutes and won't complain. He knows the system better than any other player on the team, plays hard, is liked by his teammates, and if he's shooting well he's a + player. And he's signed for the minimum. You'd have to be a real statistical genius not to like Sasha.

this is the thing that is lost. Baker does not have experience in that role, at all, and its not a stretch to suggest he may never. Some players need to get in a rhythm. Why was Eddie House great off the bench but Jimmer is playing in China? You cant quantify that, but Sasha has shown he can do it. I like Baker on our dleague team where he belongs... he would be a starter there. If someone gets hurt you call him up. Not that complicated.

Disagree that Plumlee adds more to this roster than Baker. Baker definitely needs to be more aggressive as far as looking for his shot, but he's still doing a great job of getting everybody involved, keeping the offense flowing. I would rate that higher than cleaning up under the rim.

Plumlee has surprised me, he has no real offensive game to speak of right now, but he plays hard and waits patiently for his chances to score. At the same time Baker is making his teammates better. I believe that's why Plumlee should be sent to D-league over Baker.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

I guess you expect that to continue? it was one game and it's preseason. And it's a game they were getting bodied from three.

It hasn't been just one game and Sasha want the one getting routinely lost on defense. He's been playing point and guarding point. Sasha played like this last year. He problem was his jumpshot wasn't falling. He's been scoring nicely this preseason. That's all I can see. You have to play the guys that's bringing it. Not the ones that might be because of their reputation.

Sasha does two things well, he plays hard and he pushes the tempo. We have Rose and Jennings for that in front of him. And yes, it was just one game. Usually he's been on the negative side of every +/- in the preseason except this past one game. Not sure of the reputation you speak of

No.. he also shoots well. He does a lot of things, starting with quality veteran play. Something some folks cant grasp. He also EARNED his spot THIS year, with his excellent play to finish LAST year. I understand last season was tough, but Sasha had an excellent finish. 23 games post all star last year he shot .455 from 3 point range, had a .600 true shooting, was +3.3 in the +/-
The guy has earned his spot with his play on the court, and that doesn't even include the fact that he's a triangle guy, a positive locker room presence and a coach on the floor.

Every year the same guys go nuts over some fringe prospect making the roster. Sasha is also 6'7 so he's got size over Baker and Randle as well.

Agreed. He's also shooting over 50% from 3 in the pre-season. It seems like he found his shot, which makes him a very solid backup. He's a backup guard who can play either guard spot and can play 30 minutes a night or 2 minutes and won't complain. He knows the system better than any other player on the team, plays hard, is liked by his teammates, and if he's shooting well he's a + player. And he's signed for the minimum. You'd have to be a real statistical genius not to like Sasha.

He's a great bench warmer. 3rd option point guard. Foul trouble or injury he'll give you some Lakers swagger. Only guy on the roster with a ring. He's not a scrub, he could start in Spain I'm sure.

EwingsGlass wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:I went to one game last year in January. Forget which opponent. Sasha put in work. Only guard who looked like he knew what the game plan was.

He's a great bench warmer. 3rd option point guard. Foul trouble or injury he'll give you some Lakers swagger. Only guy on the roster with a ring. He's not a scrub, he could start in Spain I'm sure.

Honest question, no hate intended. Do you see a ring earned for being a bench component behind a guy who played between 40 and 48 minutes per game as much? When you consider that this team has an MVP, a DPOY, a Scoring Title, multiple national championships, I mean, more is still better, but does it mean that much? People will view my posts as antagonistic, but I just think we are overvaluing his abilities a bit. Rasheed Wallace and Jason Kidd brought a different sense of veteran to the court. If Ray Allen wanted to play here, even at his age, I would make a roster spot for him. I'm just not as enamored by the things Sasha does well. Phil has final say. And if Baker or Plumlee agree to a year in Westchester without signing elsewhere. Or if they can move another vet to make a roster spot...well then, I don't really care how the Knicks spend their money. I'd just be upset if Baker or Plumlee got a roster invite elsewhere while Sasha rose the pine here.

Well when you put it that way... lol

I'm just saying, I think Sasha is worth it if the playmaking and being the coach's hands...but I haven't watched any of these other kids.

I need to tone it down though, railing on Sasha, cause in all likelihood, he does make the squad. Guys like Cle Early end up sticking around in Dleague sometimes. It's a risk.

If I am drilling down to the bottommost sentiment, I think this team needs another 3&D behind Lee and I am seeing Baker as fitting that mold better. I want a 3&D more than a backup backup backup PG.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:I went to one game last year in January. Forget which opponent. Sasha put in work. Only guard who looked like he knew what the game plan was.

He's a great bench warmer. 3rd option point guard. Foul trouble or injury he'll give you some Lakers swagger. Only guy on the roster with a ring. He's not a scrub, he could start in Spain I'm sure.

Honest question, no hate intended. Do you see a ring earned for being a bench component behind a guy who played between 40 and 48 minutes per game as much? When you consider that this team has an MVP, a DPOY, a Scoring Title, multiple national championships, I mean, more is still better, but does it mean that much? People will view my posts as antagonistic, but I just think we are overvaluing his abilities a bit. Rasheed Wallace and Jason Kidd brought a different sense of veteran to the court. If Ray Allen wanted to play here, even at his age, I would make a roster spot for him. I'm just not as enamored by the things Sasha does well. Phil has final say. And if Baker or Plumlee agree to a year in Westchester without signing elsewhere. Or if they can move another vet to make a roster spot...well then, I don't really care how the Knicks spend their money. I'd just be upset if Baker or Plumlee got a roster invite elsewhere while Sasha rose the pine here.

Well when you put it that way... lol

I'm just saying, I think Sasha is worth it if the playmaking and being the coach's hands...but I haven't watched any of these other kids.

I wouldn't underestimate the experience. He can speak to the reality that even if ur Kobe or Shaq you need to play the full 48 minutes the right way

EnySpree wrote:Is Anyone watching the Boston game right now? Sasha is playing superb