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Forget about Rose and Jennings for a second. Is it worth it to starphuck for CP3 next season?
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ChuckBuck
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Could this be the Peyote Zen Master's plan all along?

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/the-path-to-chris-paul-becoming-a-knick-next-season/201122298

Since it is unquestionably the biggest elephant in the room, and likely the team's biggest distraction this year, let's get address it in September. The Knicks can clear enough money to sign Chris Paul, the Los Angeles Clippers' guard who is destined for the Hall of Fame that is set to become a free agent at the end of this season.

I know what you're thinking and I'm with you, but Ian Begley of ESPN got the ball rolling already so it needs to be addressed:

"The Knicks can also clear the point guard position altogether by renouncing both Jennings and Rose, which would leave them with approximately $24 million in cap space. In this instance, it would take only a minor move for the Knicks to put themselves in position to offer a max contract to a veteran with as many as six seasons of experience -- a deal that's projected to start at around $25.5 million in 2017.

New York also currently owns its 2017 first-round draft pick, which will likely impact its cap space in 2017 free agency. Assuming the Knicks keep the pick, it will count against the cap. The 2017-18 first overall pick's rookie-scale deal will start at roughly $5 million."

Like teammate Blake Griffin and other top-flight point guards that include Rose and Toronto's Kyle Lowry, Paul has the option to become a free agent this summer. Paul, a perennial All-NBA selection and close friend of Carmelo Anthony is always among the game's leaders in PER thanks to his ability to control the game on both sides of the ball. Like Anthony, Paul has struggled to get his team to the NBA Finals and this year probably won't be any different for the Clippers with Kevin Durant signing in Golden State.

While it's worth noting next summer's free agency class, it's important to remain focused on the 2016-17 season. Ideally, Rose and Anthony will mesh; giving the Knicks the decision to have a little negotiating power against Paul should he opt out. Best case scenario for Knicks fans would be an amazing comeback year for Rose and Paul to opt out of his contract to provide options moving forward.

If Kristaps Porzingis can make even greater strides this year it would make playing with Anthony that much more attractive for Paul, one of the game's all-time best pick-and-roll specialists.

I'm torn. Even at his advanced age, he could literally pick and pop KP to 20 PPG in his sleep. If CP3 could make a lesser talented David West average 21, the sky would be the limit with KP in elevating him to superstar status.

But then there's that nagging gut feeling that Paul would fall apart before we get to see this magic transformation.

Should we go with a proven HOF point guard or should we draft a potentially point guard running mate for KP??? This is tough!!!

YES! Best Pure Point Guard the Knicks will have in history besides Clyde and Action Jax
NAY! Dude's old as the dirt. Starphuck city, he'll break down like all Knicks vets do.
Stick with Rose, he's a surefire bet to regain MVP level
Let's draft our future PG. No need to win big now, win in 3 to 5 years.
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nixluva
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9/13/2016  6:42 PM
We all know CP3 is a great player so that's not the issue IMO. IMO it's not so much about Rose having a super year as it's about how well the KNICKS as a team actually perform. WINS is what will matter the most and not individual stats. The way the team plays and comes together will be key.

What Hornacek thinks about Rose at the end of the year will also factor in. I believe Phil wants things to work with Rose and not to have to once again change his lead guard. Unless this falls apart and there is bad feelings I think that the spirit of the team should be better and tighter after a playoff run. Melo and KP would most likely want to have everyone come back if the team finds success together.
AUTOADVERT
CrushAlot
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9/13/2016  7:11 PM
Tough question. CP3 would be great for KP. The one argument against Rose coming in is does KP end up in a role where he isn't utilized and doesn't develop. I don't think there is anyway of that happening with CP3. I want to see the Rose thing play out. I agree with Nix that I think Phil is hoping it works and turns into something long term.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
arkrud
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9/13/2016  7:35 PM
If CP3 will commit to Phil with Melo organizing the secret gang party this will make a lot of sense.
If it will be just a shot in the dark most likely no...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
mreinman
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9/13/2016  8:31 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Tough question. CP3 would be great for KP. The one argument against Rose coming in is does KP end up in a role where he isn't utilized and doesn't develop. I don't think there is anyway of that happening with CP3. I want to see the Rose thing play out. I agree with Nix that I think Phil is hoping it works and turns into something long term.

so is there any scenario that you would be happy with Rose getting a near max contract? I don't think that he would be will to sign for that much less even if he has a decent year, and if he has an excellent year (which I highly doubt), I in no way would trust Rose to perform up to a 3-4 year max contract

so here is what phil is thinking ....
CrushAlot
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9/13/2016  9:05 PM
mreinman wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Tough question. CP3 would be great for KP. The one argument against Rose coming in is does KP end up in a role where he isn't utilized and doesn't develop. I don't think there is anyway of that happening with CP3. I want to see the Rose thing play out. I agree with Nix that I think Phil is hoping it works and turns into something long term.

so is there any scenario that you would be happy with Rose getting a near max contract? I don't think that he would be will to sign for that much less even if he has a decent year, and if he has an excellent year (which I highly doubt), I in no way would trust Rose to perform up to a 3-4 year max contract

I think you have to let it play out. Rose is a wild card. Maybe two years max if he has an incredible year and the Knicks get to the ecf. But if he is first year Amare all season and deep into the playoffs it would be hard to be the one making the decision. Similar to Lin with his deal with Houston, it would be hard to make the right business decision.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
mreinman
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9/13/2016  9:13 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
mreinman wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:Tough question. CP3 would be great for KP. The one argument against Rose coming in is does KP end up in a role where he isn't utilized and doesn't develop. I don't think there is anyway of that happening with CP3. I want to see the Rose thing play out. I agree with Nix that I think Phil is hoping it works and turns into something long term.

so is there any scenario that you would be happy with Rose getting a near max contract? I don't think that he would be will to sign for that much less even if he has a decent year, and if he has an excellent year (which I highly doubt), I in no way would trust Rose to perform up to a 3-4 year max contract

I think you have to let it play out. Rose is a wild card. Maybe two years max if he has an incredible year and the Knicks get to the ecf. But if he is first year Amare all season and deep into the playoffs it would be hard to be the one making the decision. Similar to Lin with his deal with Houston, it would be hard to make the right business decision.

and I think thats fair but they sort of backed themselves into a corner here. In a way, its better if he is just ok for us.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
callmened
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9/13/2016  10:11 PM
i think i put my "future game plans" in my signature

in a nutshell:
- build around KP
- surround him with vets as role players
- find him a young PG to play with

this team should be in rebuilding mode around KP...not trying to win championships with melo. that wont happen while lebron is at peak. i vote to develop our young and strike around 2019.

but im patient...nyc isnt

Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
mreinman
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9/13/2016  10:14 PM
callmened wrote:i think i put my "future game plans" in my signature

in a nutshell:
- build around KP
- surround him with vets as role players
- find him a young PG to play with

this team should be in rebuilding mode around KP...not trying to win championships with melo. that wont happen while lebron is at peak. i vote to develop our young and strike around 2019.

but im patient...nyc isnt

yeah ... tell that to the crazy's on this board who are grasping at anything with the NEEEEEEEEEEEEED to win now.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
CrushAlot
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9/13/2016  10:25 PM
mreinman wrote:
callmened wrote:i think i put my "future game plans" in my signature

in a nutshell:
- build around KP
- surround him with vets as role players
- find him a young PG to play with

this team should be in rebuilding mode around KP...not trying to win championships with melo. that wont happen while lebron is at peak. i vote to develop our young and strike around 2019.

but im patient...nyc isnt

yeah ... tell that to the crazy's on this board who are grasping at anything with the NEEEEEEEEEEEEED to win now.


You don't think that is fans reacting to the moves the President and Coach made?
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
mreinman
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9/13/2016  10:27 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
mreinman wrote:
callmened wrote:i think i put my "future game plans" in my signature

in a nutshell:
- build around KP
- surround him with vets as role players
- find him a young PG to play with

this team should be in rebuilding mode around KP...not trying to win championships with melo. that wont happen while lebron is at peak. i vote to develop our young and strike around 2019.

but im patient...nyc isnt

yeah ... tell that to the crazy's on this board who are grasping at anything with the NEEEEEEEEEEEEED to win now.


You don't think that is fans reacting to the moves the President and Coach made?

I am talking the way that fans always react. They are like gamblers who lost 100 hands in a row and still can't get their azzes off the table. They need it and they need it now.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
nixluva
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9/13/2016  11:03 PM
This is going to be Phil's 3rd revision of the roster and after the FLUSH in year one the team has gotten BETTER. So there's nothing wrong with raised expectations. Phil is trying to put a winning team together. He kept Melo. Drafted KP. Now he's added a couple of talented PG's, a real 3nD SG and a Center who can still rebound, defend and pass at a high level. It's easy to look at the negatives of the team but there are a LOT of positives with this roster and some considerable upside.

The CP3 thing is going to be a consideration after the season but I wouldn't put a high chance on this happening next summer. Phil had to have it in the back of his mind if Rose completely implodes but aside from that I think they'll look to keep the team together if they make the playoffs and perform respectably.
mreinman
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9/13/2016  11:25 PM
nixluva wrote:This is going to be Phil's 3rd revision of the roster and after the FLUSH in year one the team has gotten BETTER. So there's nothing wrong with raised expectations. Phil is trying to put a winning team together. He kept Melo. Drafted KP. Now he's added a couple of talented PG's, a real 3nD SG and a Center who can still rebound, defend and pass at a high level. It's easy to look at the negatives of the team but there are a LOT of positives with this roster and some considerable upside.

The CP3 thing is going to be a consideration after the season but I wouldn't put a high chance on this happening next summer. Phil had to have it in the back of his mind if Rose completely implodes but aside from that I think they'll look to keep the team together if they make the playoffs and perform respectably.

that is why some of us eager fans are predicting low 40's while the pro's are picking late 30's. Some improvement, yes.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
nixluva
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9/14/2016  12:06 AM
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:This is going to be Phil's 3rd revision of the roster and after the FLUSH in year one the team has gotten BETTER. So there's nothing wrong with raised expectations. Phil is trying to put a winning team together. He kept Melo. Drafted KP. Now he's added a couple of talented PG's, a real 3nD SG and a Center who can still rebound, defend and pass at a high level. It's easy to look at the negatives of the team but there are a LOT of positives with this roster and some considerable upside.

The CP3 thing is going to be a consideration after the season but I wouldn't put a high chance on this happening next summer. Phil had to have it in the back of his mind if Rose completely implodes but aside from that I think they'll look to keep the team together if they make the playoffs and perform respectably.

that is why some of us eager fans are predicting low 40's while the pro's are picking late 30's. Some improvement, yes.


I really don't consider the Pro's prediction of about 35 wins to be something that will hold up this season. I think there is too much emphasis on Rose and not enough on how all the parts will come together under Hornacek. I actually think his style will be good for these players talents. I think JH will highlight the strengths of KP, Melo and Rose and he's going to go with the flow of the river rather than fight against it. JH is gonna know the way his players are most successful and create a set of plays that will go right along with those strengths. This is what he's stated over and over and what his history has shown so far. THAT was not reflected in the thinking of the Pros.
mreinman
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9/14/2016  2:01 AM
nixluva wrote:
mreinman wrote:
nixluva wrote:This is going to be Phil's 3rd revision of the roster and after the FLUSH in year one the team has gotten BETTER. So there's nothing wrong with raised expectations. Phil is trying to put a winning team together. He kept Melo. Drafted KP. Now he's added a couple of talented PG's, a real 3nD SG and a Center who can still rebound, defend and pass at a high level. It's easy to look at the negatives of the team but there are a LOT of positives with this roster and some considerable upside.

The CP3 thing is going to be a consideration after the season but I wouldn't put a high chance on this happening next summer. Phil had to have it in the back of his mind if Rose completely implodes but aside from that I think they'll look to keep the team together if they make the playoffs and perform respectably.

that is why some of us eager fans are predicting low 40's while the pro's are picking late 30's. Some improvement, yes.


I really don't consider the Pro's prediction of about 35 wins to be something that will hold up this season. I think there is too much emphasis on Rose and not enough on how all the parts will come together under Hornacek. I actually think his style will be good for these players talents. I think JH will highlight the strengths of KP, Melo and Rose and he's going to go with the flow of the river rather than fight against it. JH is gonna know the way his players are most successful and create a set of plays that will go right along with those strengths. This is what he's stated over and over and what his history has shown so far. THAT was not reflected in the thinking of the Pros.

well your not a pro.

I think that my friends doctor should do his brain surgery with an axe yet they prefer lazer! I think their crazy but hey ... no one listens to me.

Then when something happens to him on the table I'll say: "GTFOH you fukking idiot hacks!! I told you to use an axe but nooooooooo ... you need to be smarter than everyone else and use a lazer!"

so here is what phil is thinking ....
StarksEwing1
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9/14/2016  8:49 AM
fishmike wrote:
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Wait and see...

this... hopefully Rose is the man and he works here. Jennings as well. That is the ideal scenario. Can CP3 make it through an NBA season? When Mike Conley is the highest paid PG you can assume CP3's asking price is nothing short of the max for 4 years

so lets say Rose has a solid season (by everybodys standards). Would you rather resign him to a max contract vx. taking a shot at CP3?

define solid... and be realistic about my chances to sign CP3. Does CP3 *want* to play for the Knicks? Or am I risking losing Rose for nothing so I have 20% chance to sign CP3 while I openly court him? CP3 is the better player.. of late, but has his own injury concerns as well and will want to be paid $30mm until he's 36 years old. Does that sound smart? A lot of things just don't make sense about CP3.

The ideal situation is Rose and Jennings both play their way into big deals, ideal as in they earned those big deals.

Way too risky to sign Rose to a big deal even if he has a good season. This shiuld be just a 1 year thing. next Year we have 3 draft picks and we move on in free agency
Bonn1997
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9/14/2016  9:04 AM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Wait and see...

this... hopefully Rose is the man and he works here. Jennings as well. That is the ideal scenario. Can CP3 make it through an NBA season? When Mike Conley is the highest paid PG you can assume CP3's asking price is nothing short of the max for 4 years

so lets say Rose has a solid season (by everybodys standards). Would you rather resign him to a max contract vx. taking a shot at CP3?

define solid... and be realistic about my chances to sign CP3. Does CP3 *want* to play for the Knicks? Or am I risking losing Rose for nothing so I have 20% chance to sign CP3 while I openly court him? CP3 is the better player.. of late, but has his own injury concerns as well and will want to be paid $30mm until he's 36 years old. Does that sound smart? A lot of things just don't make sense about CP3.

The ideal situation is Rose and Jennings both play their way into big deals, ideal as in they earned those big deals.

Way too risky to sign Rose to a big deal even if he has a good season. This shiuld be just a 1 year thing. next Year we have 3 draft picks and we move on in free agency

So then if he's playing well, would you trade him by the trade deadline? Or lose him for nothing?
dk7th
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9/14/2016  10:02 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Wait and see...

this... hopefully Rose is the man and he works here. Jennings as well. That is the ideal scenario. Can CP3 make it through an NBA season? When Mike Conley is the highest paid PG you can assume CP3's asking price is nothing short of the max for 4 years

so lets say Rose has a solid season (by everybodys standards). Would you rather resign him to a max contract vx. taking a shot at CP3?

define solid... and be realistic about my chances to sign CP3. Does CP3 *want* to play for the Knicks? Or am I risking losing Rose for nothing so I have 20% chance to sign CP3 while I openly court him? CP3 is the better player.. of late, but has his own injury concerns as well and will want to be paid $30mm until he's 36 years old. Does that sound smart? A lot of things just don't make sense about CP3.

The ideal situation is Rose and Jennings both play their way into big deals, ideal as in they earned those big deals.

Way too risky to sign Rose to a big deal even if he has a good season. This shiuld be just a 1 year thing. next Year we have 3 draft picks and we move on in free agency

So then if he's playing well, would you trade him by the trade deadline? Or lose him for nothing?

can you define or quantify "playing well"?

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Nalod
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9/14/2016  10:14 AM
Other than Lebron a few others, even most "stars" have gone thru some injury of concern.

CP3 has knee issues for years.
Durant had "Yao Ming" feet. If he was FA a year before, this would be a big concern.
Grif back problems.
Westbrook had the knee.

when players return for a while they are signed for big contracts. Rose played the last third of last season at a very high level. If he can play 70 games and finish strong, as well as go thru a battery of MRI's and evaluated for expert opinion then perhaps he is "back" and warrants a proper contract.
Amare was offered 3 years by PHX as they determined that's all he had. Likely, an extra year was in that offer. Knicks gave him 5 to make it an offer he could not refuse. Knicks took the risk and it was known. The contract was not insured because it could not be.

Bulls might be doing the same with Noah and its why they let him walk.

Bulls got a starting center and a good prospect in Grant in return. A decent haul for a guy with a big contract and a history of injury. Knicks signed RoPez so our exposure is really just Grant for Rose, and basically Noah.
The conversation about Rose really won't be valid until we get thru half the season and see how he does. Also, what will be his market value? How strong will his desire to be to stay in NY vs say taking a nice deal from Cuban in Dallas? How was the "Simpatico" of being a knick with Melo, KP and coach Horny vs a few more Millions? How important is winning in NY vs. Winning the bank roll?
Until now Rose has been pretty much on the "Deplorable" side. Shrouded in problems with Coach call over his SAT's, his injuries (not deplorable), his egocentric comments about his rehab, and future contract, his support group and his sexual preferences which has not become a public trail.

So who is Derrick Rose? We'll find out!
fishmike
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9/14/2016  10:16 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Wait and see...

this... hopefully Rose is the man and he works here. Jennings as well. That is the ideal scenario. Can CP3 make it through an NBA season? When Mike Conley is the highest paid PG you can assume CP3's asking price is nothing short of the max for 4 years

so lets say Rose has a solid season (by everybodys standards). Would you rather resign him to a max contract vx. taking a shot at CP3?

define solid... and be realistic about my chances to sign CP3. Does CP3 *want* to play for the Knicks? Or am I risking losing Rose for nothing so I have 20% chance to sign CP3 while I openly court him? CP3 is the better player.. of late, but has his own injury concerns as well and will want to be paid $30mm until he's 36 years old. Does that sound smart? A lot of things just don't make sense about CP3.

The ideal situation is Rose and Jennings both play their way into big deals, ideal as in they earned those big deals.

Way too risky to sign Rose to a big deal even if he has a good season. This shiuld be just a 1 year thing. next Year we have 3 draft picks and we move on in free agency

So then if he's playing well, would you trade him by the trade deadline? Or lose him for nothing?
yea...I cant get my head around this thinking. He will be 28, a former MVP and after a good season people would let him walk? Thank god Starks is not my GM. I guess people forget the last 15 years and ALLLLLL those talented players dying to come to the Knicks. Jose will be a FA... so there is always that fallback option.

Rose is an impact player and very talented. I understand he's got holes in his game but he is a dynamic talent. The kind of talent you retain in the NBA. If there is some FA deal we make instead of Rose that improves the team fine. Simply not signing him after a good season and he plays well with this squad only because you are worried about him getting hurt again would be a terrible move.

Did he have knee issues last year?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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9/14/2016  10:23 AM
Nalod wrote:Other than Lebron a few others, even most "stars" have gone thru some injury of concern.

CP3 has knee issues for years.
Durant had "Yao Ming" feet. If he was FA a year before, this would be a big concern.
Grif back problems.
Westbrook had the knee.

when players return for a while they are signed for big contracts. Rose played the last third of last season at a very high level. If he can play 70 games and finish strong, as well as go thru a battery of MRI's and evaluated for expert opinion then perhaps he is "back" and warrants a proper contract.
Amare was offered 3 years by PHX as they determined that's all he had. Likely, an extra year was in that offer. Knicks gave him 5 to make it an offer he could not refuse. Knicks took the risk and it was known. The contract was not insured because it could not be.

Bulls might be doing the same with Noah and its why they let him walk.

Bulls got a starting center and a good prospect in Grant in return. A decent haul for a guy with a big contract and a history of injury. Knicks signed RoPez so our exposure is really just Grant for Rose, and basically Noah.
The conversation about Rose really won't be valid until we get thru half the season and see how he does. Also, what will be his market value? How strong will his desire to be to stay in NY vs say taking a nice deal from Cuban in Dallas? How was the "Simpatico" of being a knick with Melo, KP and coach Horny vs a few more Millions? How important is winning in NY vs. Winning the bank roll?
Until now Rose has been pretty much on the "Deplorable" side. Shrouded in problems with Coach call over his SAT's, his injuries (not deplorable), his egocentric comments about his rehab, and future contract, his support group and his sexual preferences which has not become a public trail.

So who is Derrick Rose? We'll find out!

exactly... now is not the time to decide and make sweeping judgments. There is a lot of talent on this roster. The most since Phil has been here. We will see if the risks he took pays off and how this crew gels.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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