nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Rose has a horrible injury history, but the guy is still a top player when healthy. You have to give him that. He didn't all of a sudden become worse than Calderon. We had Galloway acting as the primary back up with Grant having a tough time learning the nba game at first. This year we have Brandon Jennings backing up Rose, lol... we are heading and shoulders better at point guard. There is no debating that fact regardless of injury concerns.

nobody is denying we upgraded our guard position. However if you are expecting 2012 Rose then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. He is still a good player and he will help us if healthy

That's the the other thing. Rose was 21 when he won the mvp... at 27 he will never turn back the clock on being 21. He's still a good player.

Not trying to be rude but i did say that he is still a good player.

Not trying get to be rude but I didn't say I expected 2012 Rose.

As far as I can recall NO ONE has said they expect 2012 Rose!!! NO ONE! I'd love to see the post that some suggested 2012 Rose was a possibility cuz I don't recall anyone saying such a thing. Just cuz someone suggests Rose could have a good season for the Knicks doesn't equate with suggesting he'd turn back into 2012 Rose. That said, Rose still gets to the rim a lot. Runs PnR a lot and pushes the ball effectively. All things we desperately needed from the PG spot.

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Wow -- 'really sad & woefully misguided' perspective?? Lol. For real??? That's a little harsh, no?

All I'm saying is that Phil went outside his own triangle norm/comfort zone to bring in one of the premiere attack PGs in the entire sport (when healthy of course). He essentially did a complete 180 in thinking from what he's told us about PGs and what he expects from them in the past. I was as surprised as everyone else with the trade and the apparent change in philosophy (quite pleasantly, esp. after thinking it through and digesting the particulars). I applaud it in fact. Now Phil's since attempted to cover his prior comments and the Rose trade by saying stuff like 'well, modern players aren't smart enough to run the triangle properly anyway, so....' Lol -- OK, Phil. See that I don't agree with at all but that's a whole 'nother discussion. Point is he's made a commitment to change (in head coach, PG and in overall style of play) and I'm ready to embrace that much needed change and move forward..

If healthy, I honestly don't want to see them change a thing about Rose's game. Westbrook's had his share of knee injuries. From what I can tell, he hasn't changed his game much, right?? Nor should he. Same deal with Rose. I don't think you change his game either. And definitely not because you think he might hurt himself again. Come on, man. Can't play the game like that--thinking he might hurt himself again..I don't agree with that at all. Now there's things we can do to preserve him so to speak -- cut down on his minutes by giving Jennings enough burn; maybe even a guy like Chasson Randle gets some time if he even makes the squad, (this is why I think it's very important to carry a capable 3rd PG on the roster), etc., but when he's in there, I want Rose going full tilt, no restrictions. Like in baseball when a pitcher comes back from TJ surgery -- sooner or later he needs to trust in the success of the surgery, trust that he's put in the work to get back and just let it fly again. Same thing here for me...If anything, like you're also suggesting--maybe he can adjust his game somewhat to be more efficient like a Tony Parker (cut down on the recklessness while maintaining aggressiveness -- if I understood you right) -- that I can understand. Sort of an 'evolving' rather than a changing in play. Sure, I'll buy that. And again, like I mentioned--I think he knows he's got good players out there to play with that he needs to keep involved. He will, I have no doubt about that. Guys like Melo, KP and Lee will get theirs. But I don't think you baby him out there number one, and #2, I certainly don't wanna see him be some 'dump it off and run to the corner guy' either. I'm done with that crap...Rose's aggressiveness is his best asset. Always has been, always will be. I wanna continue to see that important element of his game exploited full tilt. Rose being fully aggressive and opportunistic with his scoring opportunities -- that's what will take us to a different level, a level we haven't seen in some time, maybe ever. We only have 1 season to evaluate this trade before being faced with the big decision of whether to bring him back or not (part of me wishes we had 2 years to fully evaluate him, not 1 -- although 1 year should be sufficient provided we wind him up and let him go---however it goes, good or bad, we'll have our answer about keeping him long-term). So should we let Rose be Rose? I say hell yes! This isn't a player you try to reinvent or change. Maybe at some point down the road once the skills aren't there anymore but not now. I think he still has plenty of game left. I for one wanna see it, right from game 1! Would also love to show Chicago what a mistake they made too. I wouldn't mind that at all. And don't think that's not in the back of Derrick's mind as added incentive here. I dunno -- I usually keep a level head with everything Knicks and I fully understand all the risks involved with all the guys we added but I'm real amped up for Derrick Rose, man, the more I think about him. How can you not be?? The man's a game-changer provided he's healthy, plain and simple. Saying a prayer every night that he's healthy and ready to go when the bell rings!

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

DK reposts the same stuff a lot. Recent examples include his recipe for Rose's success and his link to the bball reference comparison of Parker and Rose. Too bad there wasn't a stickied thread for his posts so he didn't have to paste the same thing repeatedly.

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

DK reposts the same stuff a lot. Recent examples include his recipe for Rose's success and his link to the bball reference comparison of Parker and Rose. Too bad there wasn't a stickied thread for his posts so he didn't have to paste the same thing repeatedly.

DK is a good poster. Lets face it if everything was 100 percent positive then it would be boring and the knicks would probably have a better record the past decade. I understand some peoples reluctance considering all the suffering we have endured

Having different opinions is one thing, but blatantly stretching the truth just to try and make your point is not necessary. This has nothing to do with the losing we as fans have had to endure. If you've got a point that's backed up by some kind of data then make the point and others will argue their take on the subject and post their supporting information.

dk7th has a great point about Rose's poor defense and even the fact that Rose is not a high efficiency shooter. He's got to improve in those areas. It's also true that Rose is still one of the best penetrating guards in the league and he's capable of doing pretty much everything you need a guard to do when he's on his game. Pairing Rose with high quality players like we have in this starting lineup should help him tremendously and help the team as a whole to perform at its best. Hornacek for sure will have plenty to work with in Rose and Jennings.

i don't know what you mean by "truth" but here are the facts:

1) he's involved in a sordid civil suit starting october 4th-- his 28th birthday and the first preseason game
2) rose's true shooting percentage is 51%, and it won't rise because he doesn't get to the line or shoot 3s
3) his usage is 28%, and his assist percentage 32%, for a ratio of .875:1, far higher than a pg and closer to a shooting guard... except he can't shoot
4) his assists per game have been trending down to about 4 per game for 30 minutes
5) he is ranked near the bottom of the league on defense, not just among point guards but ALL players, 449 out of 462.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

DK reposts the same stuff a lot. Recent examples include his recipe for Rose's success and his link to the bball reference comparison of Parker and Rose. Too bad there wasn't a stickied thread for his posts so he didn't have to paste the same thing repeatedly.

DK is a good poster. Lets face it if everything was 100 percent positive then it would be boring and the knicks would probably have a better record the past decade. I understand some peoples reluctance considering all the suffering we have endured

Having different opinions is one thing, but blatantly stretching the truth just to try and make your point is not necessary. This has nothing to do with the losing we as fans have had to endure. If you've got a point that's backed up by some kind of data then make the point and others will argue their take on the subject and post their supporting information.

dk7th has a great point about Rose's poor defense and even the fact that Rose is not a high efficiency shooter. He's got to improve in those areas. It's also true that Rose is still one of the best penetrating guards in the league and he's capable of doing pretty much everything you need a guard to do when he's on his game. Pairing Rose with high quality players like we have in this starting lineup should help him tremendously and help the team as a whole to perform at its best. Hornacek for sure will have plenty to work with in Rose and Jennings.

i don't know what you mean by "truth" but here are the facts:

1) he's involved in a sordid civil suit starting october 4th-- his 28th birthday and the first preseason game
2) rose's true shooting percentage is 51%, and it won't rise because he doesn't get to the line or shoot 3s
3) his usage is 28%, and his assist percentage 32%, for a ratio of .875:1, far higher than a pg and closer to a shooting guard... except he can't shoot
4) his assists per game have been trending down to about 4 per game for 30 minutes
5) he is ranked near the bottom of the league on defense, not just among point guards but ALL players, 449 out of 462.

1. The Civil suit is unfortunate but it's really not relevant to how Rose plays basketball so...
2. TS% has been low but there is a chance for Rose to improve his efficiency. It's clear he was improving his game as the season progressed. His TS% was 46% before the All Star Break and 52.1% after the All Star Break. He can improve. I think Hornacek can help him to refine his game.
3. I expect his assist % to increase with the talent around him this season.
4. A large issue for Rose is who he plays with. It's clear that he passes most to the players he respects and trusts. He will pass the ball to this group of players because he respects and trusts them.
5. Rose on D was AWFUL last year. I can't imagine that he could play any worse than that. I do think it will help him to be playing with Lee, Noah and KP behind him. As a unit I think they could be solid defensively. Rose simply MUST step up his effort on D.

StarksEwing1 wrote:Truthfully im more excited about jennings. I was also a big jerian grant so that was another reason the trade didnt really get me pumped. But anyway back to jennings i feel we got him for a bargain and i think he will be back to what he was before the injury

I think the Jennings signing really solidified things and then adding Chasson Randle and Baker to the mix should give this team a lot of coverage at the guard spots. I'm curious to see who makes the team. Also VERY happy about Ndour. Then there's Willy and Kuz. I just really like this team and think the media and some fans are really underestimating the talent on this team.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:Truthfully im more excited about jennings. I was also a big jerian grant so that was another reason the trade didnt really get me pumped. But anyway back to jennings i feel we got him for a bargain and i think he will be back to what he was before the injury

I think the Jennings signing really solidified things and then adding Chasson Randle and Baker to the mix should give this team a lot of coverage at the guard spots. I'm curious to see who makes the team. Also VERY happy about Ndour. Then there's Willy and Kuz. I just really like this team and think the media and some fans are really underestimating the talent on this team.

although i have never seen randle play i am excited about the the rest of the team, with the exception of rose. i think it's darkly hilarious that rose is getting sued for a similar amount to his salary with the knicks.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

DK reposts the same stuff a lot. Recent examples include his recipe for Rose's success and his link to the bball reference comparison of Parker and Rose. Too bad there wasn't a stickied thread for his posts so he didn't have to paste the same thing repeatedly.

DK is a good poster. Lets face it if everything was 100 percent positive then it would be boring and the knicks would probably have a better record the past decade. I understand some peoples reluctance considering all the suffering we have endured

Having different opinions is one thing, but blatantly stretching the truth just to try and make your point is not necessary. This has nothing to do with the losing we as fans have had to endure. If you've got a point that's backed up by some kind of data then make the point and others will argue their take on the subject and post their supporting information.

dk7th has a great point about Rose's poor defense and even the fact that Rose is not a high efficiency shooter. He's got to improve in those areas. It's also true that Rose is still one of the best penetrating guards in the league and he's capable of doing pretty much everything you need a guard to do when he's on his game. Pairing Rose with high quality players like we have in this starting lineup should help him tremendously and help the team as a whole to perform at its best. Hornacek for sure will have plenty to work with in Rose and Jennings.

i don't know what you mean by "truth" but here are the facts:

1) he's involved in a sordid civil suit starting october 4th-- his 28th birthday and the first preseason game
2) rose's true shooting percentage is 51%, and it won't rise because he doesn't get to the line or shoot 3s
3) his usage is 28%, and his assist percentage 32%, for a ratio of .875:1, far higher than a pg and closer to a shooting guard... except he can't shoot
4) his assists per game have been trending down to about 4 per game for 30 minutes
5) he is ranked near the bottom of the league on defense, not just among point guards but ALL players, 449 out of 462.

All very valid points. It's not the entire picture of course but valid weak areas.

1. The Civil suit is unfortunate but it's really not relevant to how Rose plays basketball so...
2. TS% has been low but there is a chance for Rose to improve his efficiency. It's clear he was improving his game as the season progressed. His TS% was 46% before the All Star Break and 52.1% after the All Star Break. He can improve. I think Hornacek can help him to refine his game.
3. I expect his assist % to increase with the talent around him this season.
4. A large issue for Rose is who he plays with. It's clear that he passes most to the players he respects and trusts. He will pass the ball to this group of players because he respects and trusts them.
5. Rose on D was AWFUL last year. I can't imagine that he could play any worse than that. I do think it will help him to be playing with Lee, Noah and KP behind him. As a unit I think they could be solid defensively. Rose simply MUST step up his effort on D.

1.. You are kidding me right? No way you can use the ole "once i step inside these 4 lines" rationalization.
2.. You excel at conjecture, nixluva.
3.. Translation: Rose doesn't make others around him better, 1a
4.. Translation: Rose doesn't male others around him better, 1b
5.. If he doesn't carry his own load he hurts his teammates, and probably more than he helps them in other areas. See 2.., 3.., 4..

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but **** man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=rosede01&p2=parketo01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

DK reposts the same stuff a lot. Recent examples include his recipe for Rose's success and his link to the bball reference comparison of Parker and Rose. Too bad there wasn't a stickied thread for his posts so he didn't have to paste the same thing repeatedly.

DK is a good poster. Lets face it if everything was 100 percent positive then it would be boring and the knicks would probably have a better record the past decade. I understand some peoples reluctance considering all the suffering we have endured

Having different opinions is one thing, but blatantly stretching the truth just to try and make your point is not necessary. This has nothing to do with the losing we as fans have had to endure. If you've got a point that's backed up by some kind of data then make the point and others will argue their take on the subject and post their supporting information.

dk7th has a great point about Rose's poor defense and even the fact that Rose is not a high efficiency shooter. He's got to improve in those areas. It's also true that Rose is still one of the best penetrating guards in the league and he's capable of doing pretty much everything you need a guard to do when he's on his game. Pairing Rose with high quality players like we have in this starting lineup should help him tremendously and help the team as a whole to perform at its best. Hornacek for sure will have plenty to work with in Rose and Jennings.

i don't know what you mean by "truth" but here are the facts:

1) he's involved in a sordid civil suit starting october 4th-- his 28th birthday and the first preseason game
2) rose's true shooting percentage is 51%, and it won't rise because he doesn't get to the line or shoot 3s
3) his usage is 28%, and his assist percentage 32%, for a ratio of .875:1, far higher than a pg and closer to a shooting guard... except he can't shoot
4) his assists per game have been trending down to about 4 per game for 30 minutes
5) he is ranked near the bottom of the league on defense, not just among point guards but ALL players, 449 out of 462.

All very valid points. It's not the entire picture of course but valid weak areas.

1. The Civil suit is unfortunate but it's really not relevant to how Rose plays basketball so...
2. TS% has been low but there is a chance for Rose to improve his efficiency. It's clear he was improving his game as the season progressed. His TS% was 46% before the All Star Break and 52.1% after the All Star Break. He can improve. I think Hornacek can help him to refine his game.
3. I expect his assist % to increase with the talent around him this season.
4. A large issue for Rose is who he plays with. It's clear that he passes most to the players he respects and trusts. He will pass the ball to this group of players because he respects and trusts them.
5. Rose on D was AWFUL last year. I can't imagine that he could play any worse than that. I do think it will help him to be playing with Lee, Noah and KP behind him. As a unit I think they could be solid defensively. Rose simply MUST step up his effort on D.

1.. You are kidding me right? No way you can use the ole "once i step inside these 4 lines" rationalization.
2.. You excel at conjecture, nixluva.
3.. Translation: Rose doesn't make others around him better, 1a
4.. Translation: Rose doesn't male others around him better, 1b
5.. If he doesn't carry his own load he hurts his teammates, and probably more than he helps them in other areas. See 2.., 3.., 4..

1. This isn't really about how Rose will play. It's just something you can use against Rose so you're bringing it up. None of us were there so I choose to keep my own moral judgements to myself on this one.

2. All you're doing is going with the TS% as if that's the whole story for Rose as a player offensively. I've posted PLENTY of proof that Rose does a LOT of things at a high level. I also think Rose is actually getting his game back, which you seem to assume is impossible but it's not.

3&4. You are making a TON of assumptions yourself. For one thing Rose has the ability to pass the ball at a high level. You will see that this season and then you'll simply fade into the background cuz there won't be anything to say.

5. Yes as I said Rose does have to improve his defense. It's also true that it matters who you play with. Defense at this level is a team game and this group should be able to defend well enough as a unit.