newyorker4ever wrote:So now that pretty much every Knicks fans 2017 big free agent signing in R.Westbrook is off the table does D.Rose jump to the top of your list to run the point for us for the next 4 years?? Of course it all has to do with how healthy he can stay next season and if he can show he still has his speed and athleticism but lets just say he does stay healthy next season and does show to be the Rose of old or at least very close to it. Even if he did it would still absolutely be scary to sign him to any kind of multiple year contract but if we don't someone will. So lets take a look at the top free agent PG's in 2017 and see who you would choose over Rose or if you would choose anyone over him.

D.Rose.
B.Jennings--Could it be Jennings if he can show he can stay healthy and that he still has his athleticism? We know he wants to be here.
C.Paul (ETO)-- he's getting up there in age and hasn't been able to get some really good teams to the championship level yet.
K.Lowry (ETO)--no way Toronto lets him go and wouldn't doubt if he and D.Derozan have already decided to come back and play together.
S.Curry--We all know he isn't leaving GSW.
J.Teague--I don't think he signed a new contract with Indiana.
G.Antetokounmpo (RFA)--Yes he does play PG but i also see no way the Bucks let him go and he's probably still mad at the Knicks for not giving his brother enough of a chance.
Jrue Holiday--He gets hurt a lot but the kid can ball when healthy.
M.Carter Williams--Has not turned out to be what some thought he could be and can't shoot...not even free throws.
D.Scroder (RFA)--No way Atl lets him get away after trading Teague.
T.Evans---always hurt.
V.Oladipo (RFA)--He's probably gonna re=sign with OKC and be there starting SG especially now that D.Waiters is gone but he can and has played PG.
D.Collison

So again, if Rose can stay healthy next year and show he still has his speed and athleticism do you re-sign him for 4 years at max or close to max but most likely max contract or do you go elsewhere??

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:So now that pretty much every Knicks fans 2017 big free agent signing in R.Westbrook is off the table does D.Rose jump to the top of your list to run the point for us for the next 4 years?? Of course it all has to do with how healthy he can stay next season and if he can show he still has his speed and athleticism but lets just say he does stay healthy next season and does show to be the Rose of old or at least very close to it. Even if he did it would still absolutely be scary to sign him to any kind of multiple year contract but if we don't someone will. So lets take a look at the top free agent PG's in 2017 and see who you would choose over Rose or if you would choose anyone over him.

D.Rose.
B.Jennings--Could it be Jennings if he can show he can stay healthy and that he still has his athleticism? We know he wants to be here.
C.Paul (ETO)-- he's getting up there in age and hasn't been able to get some really good teams to the championship level yet.
K.Lowry (ETO)--no way Toronto lets him go and wouldn't doubt if he and D.Derozan have already decided to come back and play together.
S.Curry--We all know he isn't leaving GSW.
J.Teague--I don't think he signed a new contract with Indiana.
G.Antetokounmpo (RFA)--Yes he does play PG but i also see no way the Bucks let him go and he's probably still mad at the Knicks for not giving his brother enough of a chance.
Jrue Holiday--He gets hurt a lot but the kid can ball when healthy.
M.Carter Williams--Has not turned out to be what some thought he could be and can't shoot...not even free throws.
D.Scroder (RFA)--No way Atl lets him get away after trading Teague.
T.Evans---always hurt.
V.Oladipo (RFA)--He's probably gonna re=sign with OKC and be there starting SG especially now that D.Waiters is gone but he can and has played PG.
D.Collison

So again, if Rose can stay healthy next year and show he still has his speed and athleticism do you re-sign him for 4 years at max or close to max but most likely max contract or do you go elsewhere??

good work... really shows how slim the options are. Makes the Rose trade/gamble an even better move IMO. This is a very tough position to upgrade in the league. Getting a season long look at Jennings/Rose really puts us in a good position for next year. Fingers crossed both play well and stick. That would be amazing.

Yeah at this point the only focus has to be on making this work as best as possible. Like that say a Bird in the Hand is worth 2 in the Bush. We needed serious upgrades at the PG spot and if these guards are healthy and playing the way they should it's indeed a massive upgrade. It's very hard to get one of the better PG's in this league. DRose and Jennings were at their lowest value, but I think they are more than capable of bouncing back and so we have to hope that they improve here. The thing is that neither guy has to worry about carrying all the action here in NY. Just play TEAM BALL and things will work well.

team ball means passing the ball and defending as a unit. the point guards we have don't do that very well. best to focus on backcourt players who can do those things, and avoid chasing big names. lee is a start.

it'd be great to trade derrick rose for ricky rubio. that would be a huge upgrade and puts the knicks in genuine contention.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:So now that pretty much every Knicks fans 2017 big free agent signing in R.Westbrook is off the table does D.Rose jump to the top of your list to run the point for us for the next 4 years?? Of course it all has to do with how healthy he can stay next season and if he can show he still has his speed and athleticism but lets just say he does stay healthy next season and does show to be the Rose of old or at least very close to it. Even if he did it would still absolutely be scary to sign him to any kind of multiple year contract but if we don't someone will. So lets take a look at the top free agent PG's in 2017 and see who you would choose over Rose or if you would choose anyone over him.

D.Rose.
B.Jennings--Could it be Jennings if he can show he can stay healthy and that he still has his athleticism? We know he wants to be here.
C.Paul (ETO)-- he's getting up there in age and hasn't been able to get some really good teams to the championship level yet.
K.Lowry (ETO)--no way Toronto lets him go and wouldn't doubt if he and D.Derozan have already decided to come back and play together.
S.Curry--We all know he isn't leaving GSW.
J.Teague--I don't think he signed a new contract with Indiana.
G.Antetokounmpo (RFA)--Yes he does play PG but i also see no way the Bucks let him go and he's probably still mad at the Knicks for not giving his brother enough of a chance.
Jrue Holiday--He gets hurt a lot but the kid can ball when healthy.
M.Carter Williams--Has not turned out to be what some thought he could be and can't shoot...not even free throws.
D.Scroder (RFA)--No way Atl lets him get away after trading Teague.
T.Evans---always hurt.
V.Oladipo (RFA)--He's probably gonna re=sign with OKC and be there starting SG especially now that D.Waiters is gone but he can and has played PG.
D.Collison

So again, if Rose can stay healthy next year and show he still has his speed and athleticism do you re-sign him for 4 years at max or close to max but most likely max contract or do you go elsewhere??

good work... really shows how slim the options are. Makes the Rose trade/gamble an even better move IMO. This is a very tough position to upgrade in the league. Getting a season long look at Jennings/Rose really puts us in a good position for next year. Fingers crossed both play well and stick. That would be amazing.

Yeah at this point the only focus has to be on making this work as best as possible. Like that say a Bird in the Hand is worth 2 in the Bush. We needed serious upgrades at the PG spot and if these guards are healthy and playing the way they should it's indeed a massive upgrade. It's very hard to get one of the better PG's in this league. DRose and Jennings were at their lowest value, but I think they are more than capable of bouncing back and so we have to hope that they improve here. The thing is that neither guy has to worry about carrying all the action here in NY. Just play TEAM BALL and things will work well.

team ball means passing the ball and defending as a unit. the point guards we have don't do that very well. best to focus on backcourt players who can do those things, and avoid chasing big names. lee is a start.

it'd be great to trade derrick rose for ricky rubio. that would be a huge upgrade and puts the knicks in genuine contention.

Rubio ever lead a 62 win team? I'm not sure that Rubio would be the answer to our problems either. He's got his own weaknesses. You're assuming that the Knicks won't play team ball. There's really no reason to think that this team won't play team ball. Just cuz a guard passes a lot doesn't mean that it leads to winning. It's not that simple. Jose passed a lot but what did it really lead to?

While I agree that defense is not the strongsuit of Rose and Jennings, very few teams have great defensive PG's and they're able to win big. It's going to be about how the TEAM defends as a whole and I believe they'll be pretty decent. We sucked at PG and SG defensively last year and still managed a #18 defense. I expect that this roster can improve on that ranking. They should be better.

that's a ridiculous rhetorical question. rose has been id'd as the most overrated, undeserving mvp in nba history. rubio is perfect for the knicks if only because of his defensive rating, let alone his superior passing skills. and with the front court players we have, the knicks are geared towards going against the perimeter-centric trend of the league. rose and jennings and other non-orchestrating scoring point guards are not needed on this team.

jackson should be building this team to serve kp6, melo, noah, o'quinn, and hernangomez. rose and jennings are mere stopgaps until we get out own version of dennis johnson.

you're working way too hard to justify rose and jennings. both are on one year contracts.... think about that.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:So now that pretty much every Knicks fans 2017 big free agent signing in R.Westbrook is off the table does D.Rose jump to the top of your list to run the point for us for the next 4 years?? Of course it all has to do with how healthy he can stay next season and if he can show he still has his speed and athleticism but lets just say he does stay healthy next season and does show to be the Rose of old or at least very close to it. Even if he did it would still absolutely be scary to sign him to any kind of multiple year contract but if we don't someone will. So lets take a look at the top free agent PG's in 2017 and see who you would choose over Rose or if you would choose anyone over him.

D.Rose.
B.Jennings--Could it be Jennings if he can show he can stay healthy and that he still has his athleticism? We know he wants to be here.
C.Paul (ETO)-- he's getting up there in age and hasn't been able to get some really good teams to the championship level yet.
K.Lowry (ETO)--no way Toronto lets him go and wouldn't doubt if he and D.Derozan have already decided to come back and play together.
S.Curry--We all know he isn't leaving GSW.
J.Teague--I don't think he signed a new contract with Indiana.
G.Antetokounmpo (RFA)--Yes he does play PG but i also see no way the Bucks let him go and he's probably still mad at the Knicks for not giving his brother enough of a chance.
Jrue Holiday--He gets hurt a lot but the kid can ball when healthy.
M.Carter Williams--Has not turned out to be what some thought he could be and can't shoot...not even free throws.
D.Scroder (RFA)--No way Atl lets him get away after trading Teague.
T.Evans---always hurt.
V.Oladipo (RFA)--He's probably gonna re=sign with OKC and be there starting SG especially now that D.Waiters is gone but he can and has played PG.
D.Collison

So again, if Rose can stay healthy next year and show he still has his speed and athleticism do you re-sign him for 4 years at max or close to max but most likely max contract or do you go elsewhere??

good work... really shows how slim the options are. Makes the Rose trade/gamble an even better move IMO. This is a very tough position to upgrade in the league. Getting a season long look at Jennings/Rose really puts us in a good position for next year. Fingers crossed both play well and stick. That would be amazing.

Yeah at this point the only focus has to be on making this work as best as possible. Like that say a Bird in the Hand is worth 2 in the Bush. We needed serious upgrades at the PG spot and if these guards are healthy and playing the way they should it's indeed a massive upgrade. It's very hard to get one of the better PG's in this league. DRose and Jennings were at their lowest value, but I think they are more than capable of bouncing back and so we have to hope that they improve here. The thing is that neither guy has to worry about carrying all the action here in NY. Just play TEAM BALL and things will work well.

team ball means passing the ball and defending as a unit. the point guards we have don't do that very well. best to focus on backcourt players who can do those things, and avoid chasing big names. lee is a start.

it'd be great to trade derrick rose for ricky rubio. that would be a huge upgrade and puts the knicks in genuine contention.

Rubio ever lead a 62 win team? I'm not sure that Rubio would be the answer to our problems either. He's got his own weaknesses. You're assuming that the Knicks won't play team ball. There's really no reason to think that this team won't play team ball. Just cuz a guard passes a lot doesn't mean that it leads to winning. It's not that simple. Jose passed a lot but what did it really lead to?

While I agree that defense is not the strongsuit of Rose and Jennings, very few teams have great defensive PG's and they're able to win big. It's going to be about how the TEAM defends as a whole and I believe they'll be pretty decent. We sucked at PG and SG defensively last year and still managed a #18 defense. I expect that this roster can improve on that ranking. They should be better.

that's a ridiculous rhetorical question. rose has been id'd as the most overrated, undeserving mvp in nba history. rubio is perfect for the knicks if only because of his defensive rating, let alone his superior passing skills. and with the front court players we have, the knicks are geared towards going against the perimeter-centric trend of the league. rose and jennings and other non-orchestrating scoring point guards are not needed on this team.

jackson should be building this team to serve kp6, melo, noah, o'quinn, and hernangomez. rose and jennings are mere stopgaps until we get out own version of dennis johnson.

you're working way too hard to justify rose and jennings. both are on one year contracts.... think about that.

This is a bit over the top. I don't think Phil is looking at DRose and Jennings as stopgaps. Stopgaps to what exactly? There are no guarantees that we can get CP3 to come and for the most part the PG pickings get pretty slim. Who exactly are you waiting for besides Rubio?

DRose may or may not have deserved the MVP, but he played some pretty impressive ball in order to even be on the list in the 1st place. Rubio ever been in serious consideration for MVP??? See you are the one who is trying too hard! Stop trying to bash DRose and Jennings value to this roster, when you know we are coming from a massive deficit at the PG spot.

The one contract year aspect is fine for motivating players, so I don't see it as a big negative. I've already stated that we're getting both Rose and Jennings at their low points. The point you're trying to make about Rose and Jennings not being a fit for this team is yet to be 100% determined. I'm saying that the way Hornacek intends to use our guards should fit well with the talents of our guards.

We know JH wants to play uptempo, PnR, attacking the basket and getting open 3's. At the very least we know DRose and Jennings can push the ball and get early offense. They have enough talent to create their own offense and also create looks for their teammates. They may not be the prototypical PURE PG, but the are capable enough of making plays out of PnR, Drag Screens, Dribble Hand Offs and cuts to the basket. You're making it sound like they are totally incapable of such things and that's not the case.

We all hope that DRose and Jennings can make the best use of the talent around them on this team, which IMO is pretty darned good.

again you miss the point. what you are doing is essentially "begging the question."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

there is ZERO proof that we need the cp3s of the nba, the westbrooks, the roses, etc. etc. jackson is taking a gamble this year, and you should not get too invested in rose or jennings. who else in the rotation has a one-year contract?

no-- what the knicks need are fraziers, dennis johnsons, ron harpers. hornacek isn't going to impose his ideas onto undeserving players like rose and jennings. that's crazy. rather, he is going to make rose and jennings defer and subordinate their lousy tendencies to the benefit of the big men. or he will at least try to trent dilfer both of them.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:So now that pretty much every Knicks fans 2017 big free agent signing in R.Westbrook is off the table does D.Rose jump to the top of your list to run the point for us for the next 4 years?? Of course it all has to do with how healthy he can stay next season and if he can show he still has his speed and athleticism but lets just say he does stay healthy next season and does show to be the Rose of old or at least very close to it. Even if he did it would still absolutely be scary to sign him to any kind of multiple year contract but if we don't someone will. So lets take a look at the top free agent PG's in 2017 and see who you would choose over Rose or if you would choose anyone over him.

D.Rose.
B.Jennings--Could it be Jennings if he can show he can stay healthy and that he still has his athleticism? We know he wants to be here.
C.Paul (ETO)-- he's getting up there in age and hasn't been able to get some really good teams to the championship level yet.
K.Lowry (ETO)--no way Toronto lets him go and wouldn't doubt if he and D.Derozan have already decided to come back and play together.
S.Curry--We all know he isn't leaving GSW.
J.Teague--I don't think he signed a new contract with Indiana.
G.Antetokounmpo (RFA)--Yes he does play PG but i also see no way the Bucks let him go and he's probably still mad at the Knicks for not giving his brother enough of a chance.
Jrue Holiday--He gets hurt a lot but the kid can ball when healthy.
M.Carter Williams--Has not turned out to be what some thought he could be and can't shoot...not even free throws.
D.Scroder (RFA)--No way Atl lets him get away after trading Teague.
T.Evans---always hurt.
V.Oladipo (RFA)--He's probably gonna re=sign with OKC and be there starting SG especially now that D.Waiters is gone but he can and has played PG.
D.Collison

So again, if Rose can stay healthy next year and show he still has his speed and athleticism do you re-sign him for 4 years at max or close to max but most likely max contract or do you go elsewhere??

good work... really shows how slim the options are. Makes the Rose trade/gamble an even better move IMO. This is a very tough position to upgrade in the league. Getting a season long look at Jennings/Rose really puts us in a good position for next year. Fingers crossed both play well and stick. That would be amazing.

Yeah at this point the only focus has to be on making this work as best as possible. Like that say a Bird in the Hand is worth 2 in the Bush. We needed serious upgrades at the PG spot and if these guards are healthy and playing the way they should it's indeed a massive upgrade. It's very hard to get one of the better PG's in this league. DRose and Jennings were at their lowest value, but I think they are more than capable of bouncing back and so we have to hope that they improve here. The thing is that neither guy has to worry about carrying all the action here in NY. Just play TEAM BALL and things will work well.

team ball means passing the ball and defending as a unit. the point guards we have don't do that very well. best to focus on backcourt players who can do those things, and avoid chasing big names. lee is a start.

it'd be great to trade derrick rose for ricky rubio. that would be a huge upgrade and puts the knicks in genuine contention.

Rubio ever lead a 62 win team? I'm not sure that Rubio would be the answer to our problems either. He's got his own weaknesses. You're assuming that the Knicks won't play team ball. There's really no reason to think that this team won't play team ball. Just cuz a guard passes a lot doesn't mean that it leads to winning. It's not that simple. Jose passed a lot but what did it really lead to?

While I agree that defense is not the strongsuit of Rose and Jennings, very few teams have great defensive PG's and they're able to win big. It's going to be about how the TEAM defends as a whole and I believe they'll be pretty decent. We sucked at PG and SG defensively last year and still managed a #18 defense. I expect that this roster can improve on that ranking. They should be better.

that's a ridiculous rhetorical question. rose has been id'd as the most overrated, undeserving mvp in nba history. rubio is perfect for the knicks if only because of his defensive rating, let alone his superior passing skills. and with the front court players we have, the knicks are geared towards going against the perimeter-centric trend of the league. rose and jennings and other non-orchestrating scoring point guards are not needed on this team.

jackson should be building this team to serve kp6, melo, noah, o'quinn, and hernangomez. rose and jennings are mere stopgaps until we get out own version of dennis johnson.

you're working way too hard to justify rose and jennings. both are on one year contracts.... think about that.

This is a bit over the top. I don't think Phil is looking at DRose and Jennings as stopgaps. Stopgaps to what exactly? There are no guarantees that we can get CP3 to come and for the most part the PG pickings get pretty slim. Who exactly are you waiting for besides Rubio?

DRose may or may not have deserved the MVP, but he played some pretty impressive ball in order to even be on the list in the 1st place. Rubio ever been in serious consideration for MVP??? See you are the one who is trying too hard! Stop trying to bash DRose and Jennings value to this roster, when you know we are coming from a massive deficit at the PG spot.

The one contract year aspect is fine for motivating players, so I don't see it as a big negative. I've already stated that we're getting both Rose and Jennings at their low points. The point you're trying to make about Rose and Jennings not being a fit for this team is yet to be 100% determined. I'm saying that the way Hornacek intends to use our guards should fit well with the talents of our guards.

We know JH wants to play uptempo, PnR, attacking the basket and getting open 3's. At the very least we know DRose and Jennings can push the ball and get early offense. They have enough talent to create their own offense and also create looks for their teammates. They may not be the prototypical PURE PG, but the are capable enough of making plays out of PnR, Drag Screens, Dribble Hand Offs and cuts to the basket. You're making it sound like they are totally incapable of such things and that's not the case.

We all hope that DRose and Jennings can make the best use of the talent around them on this team, which IMO is pretty darned good.

again you miss the point. what you are doing is essentially "begging the question."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

there is ZERO proof that we need the cp3s of the nba, the westbrooks, the roses, etc. etc. jackson is taking a gamble this year, and you should not get too invested in rose or jennings. who else in the rotation has a one-year contract?

no-- what the knicks need are fraziers, dennis johnsons, ron harpers. hornacek isn't going to impose his ideas onto undeserving players like rose and jennings. that's crazy. rather, he is going to make rose and jennings defer and subordinate their lousy tendencies to the benefit of the big men. or he will at least try to trent dilfer both of them.

Jackson is listening to his coach and got guys that can play his coach's system. The Rose trade happened shortly after Hornacek said they needed a guy to bridge the gap between Jose and Grant. I think it is odd that Jackson got guards that fit with his coach but you see his long term vision as getting guards that would require his coach to play a different system. We know Kerr is a big fan of Hornacek and that Phil was very fond of Jeff as a player. I think you are misreading things if you don't recognize a mutual respect between Phil and Jeff. I think these guys are simpatico and will compromise and communicate to make the team a success. I think Phil realized that listening to other voices in the room could be beneficial to his team goals.

To back up what you're saying

“The point guards we have, Jerian (Grant) is just a young player who is learning his way. He’s going to get better and better as the years go on with the experience. And Jose (Calderon) is on the later side of it so if we can find a point guard who, that’s the 27, 28-year-old guy who has the experience and still has a lot of juice left, sure that would make us better. And the more shooters you can get, the better also.”

“OBVIOUSLY, WE’RE GOING TO RUN ASPECTS OF THE TRIANGLE…. IT’S A GOOD WEAPON TO HAVE THE WAY YOU SPACE THE FLOOR, THAT CAN LEAD TO A LOT OF READS, THAT’S WHAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT. IT TAKES A WHILE FOR GUYS TO REALLY LEARN IT. BUT WITH THAT BEING SAID, I LIKE TO GET THE BALL UP AND DOWN THE COURT, HAVE MORE OPPORTUNITIES, PICK UP THE PACE SO THERE WILL BE A LOT OF EARLY OFFENSE AND THEN YOU CAN ALWAYS GET TO THE ASPECTS OF THE TRIANGLE.”

"...BUT IT’S NOT GOING TO BE, ‘HEY WE NEED CARMELO BY HIMSELF TO BEAT THIS TEAM; WE NEED KRISTAPS BY HIMSELF.’ WE NEED TO MAKE IT A TEAM GAME WHERE ALL GUYS ARE CONTRIBUTING AND ALL GUYS FEEL LIKE THEY’RE A BIG PART OF IT AND THAT’S HOW YOU WIN.”

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/HerringWSJ/status/738777385340968960

Hornacek is not going to be running a slow it down version of the Triangle. Most of what we see will be closer to what he likes to run early in the shot clock and then there will be times where they run Triangle, but it's not going to be like it was for example under Rambis. There will be a lot of other things being run, that will make use of the talents of the players he has. He's not gonna just force the Triangle down the players throats. As you stated Crush, JH and Phil are on the same page:

As Hornacek stated at his news conference, his version of the Knicks will push the tempo and shoot more 3’s. Those two things were confirmed by Jackson and then again on MSG Networks’ Hornacek special last week. In an interview with WNBC’s Bruce Beck at an event, Jackson said he understood that the spacing of the triangle had to be adjusted in order to allow for a more prominent role for the 3-point shot.

Combine that statement with the fact that Hornacek talked about the triangle as a principle of spacing and that moving a guy 3 feet would, in your basic set, put him behind the 3-point line, and it tells me that adjustment in spacing in the triangle is something he and Jackson already discussed. The Knicks are going to shoot more 3’s this year one way or another.

Jackson also confirmed Hornacek’s point about pace in the MSG special. He talked about how when Hornacek coached Phoenix, he would set the shot clock in practice to only 12 to 14 seconds to encourage his players to push the pace and find good shots early in the shot clock. He lavished praise on the practice technique, confirming the two are on the same page in terms of pace.

The other interesting nugget dropped by Jackson was that he sees himself helping Hornacek design his system to best utilize the talents of the guys currently on the roster. He talked about how Carmelo Anthony likes the ball on the post, and that he would try to help Hornacek understand the strengths of the players on the roster. It jives with Hornacek’s desire to fit his offense to his players.