nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:THANK YOU CRUSHALOT!!! That is a masterpiece of breaking down exactly what the real deal is with Melo and this team. Phil has put a team together that has a real legit chance to be a top team in this league. Each player will help the other to see much easier and more open looks.

Hornacek will also be able to spread the love with his rotations. We shouldn't have to play any part of the game without at least one of our top 6 players on the floor. People should not underestimate the impact that will have.

It is a great video. I hope Rose will want to share the ball (and stays healthy). It's amazing Phil, Dolan, Mills, etc. have not surrounded Melo with even one adequate play-maker.

If you count Noah then that would make one but I know you mean guard. Jennings seemed like he was making strides of becoming an adequate play-maker but then he got hurt. I expect PGs to avg at least 8 ast per 36. On this team the two guards are not going to help so it will be up to the PGs, Noah, and KP to make plays for Melo. I think having Noah IQ will really help Melo especially when he post up because he needs a big that knows when to flash high to create a better passing angle instead of having Melo tussle around on the block and eat up seconds while the guard trying an entry pass struggles to find an passing window he is comfortable with. If Noah can keep up his +5 ast per 36 avg while playing 70+ games it will go along way to helping out the short comings of Rose as a play-maker.

In a perfect world Rose would change his game and becomes a real distributor. I want to see 10 ast this year. If he was a better scorer then I wouldn't think he would need that many but he has never scored efficiently enough to warrant the shots he takes which decreases his ast opps. He is playing with an older and slightly different Melo but it would be nice if Rose could have a revival like Iverson did when playing with Melo in Denver. Iverson was the older vet then so maybe shaving nearly 8% off his usg% came easier I don't know.

Yeah, good point about Noah (if he can stay healthy). I hope Rose can have the humility to realize that he really should only be shooting near the rim and creating for others.

REALLY? I think you are sounding a bit ridiculous now. If you think that Rose and Jennings are not going to make a marked improvement for this team you're LOST. They will make the pass to Melo, KP, Lee and Noah. They will make the pass to open teammates. This notion that they will somehow ignore players they respect is bogus. Just because these aren't Pure PG's that look to pass the ball at every moment doesn't mean they aren't going to have a positive impact for this team. They're scoring guards.

Also not only Noah, but Melo, KP, KOQ and Willy can pass the ball effectively. There will be enough TEAM passing to make things work.

Again, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't take a crystal ball out and foresee players making dramatic changes. I expect players to do what they've always done until they actually show me otherwise. Normally people don't expect a player to take better shots when he goes from a .550 team (Bulls last 2 year average) to a sub .400 team. They'd expect worse shots actually. Maybe Hornacek will get through to Rose in a way that other coaches haven't. I haven't ruled out the possibility by any means but I don't give it high odds either.

You're failing is that you are assuming that the behavior is due to some flaw of the player rather than due to circumstances. Just like the video points out WHO a player is playing with has a HUGE impact on how they play. So you are making a judgment based on a lack of information. You think you have facts but in truth you're only looking at the results and not the cause.

Rose will pass the ball:

2013-14

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Deng, Luol	21.7%	  13.0	0.7	0.8	3.0	26.7	0.7	2.4	29.2	0.1	0.6	16.7
Noah, Joakim	20.1%	  12.0	0.6	0.7	1.6	43.8	0.7	1.6	43.8	0.0	0.0	-
Butler, Jimmy	17.4%	  10.4	0.8	1.0	2.2	45.5	0.6	1.2	50.0	0.4	1.0	40.0
Boozer, Carlos	16.1%	   9.6	1.3	1.6	3.2	50.0	1.6	3.2	50.0	0.0	0.0	-
Hinrich, Kirk	12.0%	   7.2	0.2	0.2	0.7	28.6	0.1	0.3	33.3	0.1	0.4	25.0
Dunleavy, Mike	7.9%	   4.7	0.6	0.6	0.9	66.7	0.3	0.5	60.0	0.3	0.4	75.0
Gibson, Taj	3.5%	   2.1	0.1	0.1	0.5	20.0	0.1	0.5	20.0	0.0	0.0	-
Mohammed, Nazr	0.8%	   0.5	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	-
Snell, Tony	0.5%	   0.3	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.1	0.0	0.0	0.1	0.0

2014-15

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Gasol, Pau	28.3%	  15.2	1.7	2.3	5.0	46.5	2.3	4.9	46.4	0.1	0.1	50.0
Butler, Jimmy   21.3%	  11.4	1.2	1.4	2.9	48.3	1.0	2.1	48.1	0.4	0.8	48.7
Noah, Joakim    14.3%	   7.7	0.3	0.4	1.0	38.8	0.4	1.0	38.8	0.0	0.0	-
Dunleavy, Mike  11.9%	   6.4	0.5	0.6	1.3	44.6	0.3	0.6	48.4	0.3	0.7	41.2
Hinrich, Kirk	6.6%	   3.5	0.3	0.3	0.6	48.4	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.2	0.4	45.0
Snell, Tony     5.3%	   2.8	0.3	0.3	0.7	42.9	0.1	0.3	53.8	0.2	0.4	36.4
Gibson, Taj     5.2%	   2.8	0.3	0.3	0.7	45.9	0.3	0.7	45.9	0.0	0.0	-
Mirotic, Nikola	3.1%	   1.7	0.1	0.2	0.6	25.0	0.1	0.2	27.3	0.1	0.4	23.8
Brooks, Aaron	2.8%	   1.5	0.1	0.2	0.5	36.0	0.1	0.2	25.0	0.1	0.3	46.2

2015-16

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Gasol, Pau      28.2%	  15.5	1.5	1.8	3.8	48.2	1.8	3.6	49.2	0.1	0.2	27.3
Butler, Jimmy	25.8%	  14.2	0.6	1.4	3.4	42.3	1.2	2.6	46.8	0.2	0.8	27.8
Mirotic, Nikola	8.6%	   4.7	0.4	0.5	1.2	40.5	0.2	0.5	40.0	0.3	0.7	40.8
Gibson, Taj	8.5%	   4.7	0.4	0.6	1.0	56.3	0.6	1.0	56.3	0.0	0.0	-
Moore, E'Twaun	6.0%	   3.3	0.4	0.5	0.9	54.8	0.3	0.6	54.1	0.2	0.4	56.0
McDermott, Doug	4.6%	   2.5	0.4	0.4	0.9	46.8	0.2	0.4	41.4	0.3	0.5	51.5
Snell, Tony	4.2%	   2.3	0.3	0.3	0.7	50.0	0.1	0.2	46.7	0.2	0.4	51.7
Portis, Bobby	3.8%	   2.1	0.2	0.2	0.7	31.1	0.2	0.6	35.0	0.0	0.1	0.0
Dunleavy, Mike	3.5%	   1.9	0.2	0.2	0.5	51.6	0.1	0.2	50.0	0.1	0.3	52.9
Noah, Joakim	3.3%	   1.8	0.1	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.0	0.0	-
Brooks, Aaron	1.1%	   0.6	0.0	0.1	0.2	28.6	0.1	0.1	60.0	0.0	0.1	11.1

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/passes/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=FREQUENCY&dir=1

What makes the big difference is players being open and Rose having respect for that player's scoring ability. He will pass to his teammates on the Knicks because he respects their ability to score and they will be open.

I definitely realize the situation impacts player performance. It is not normal to predict that a player going to a team with 10 less wins has a better supporting cast though. However, if Rose mistakenly believes this roster is better, he might start taking better shots, which would help a lot.

Again you're making strange assumptions. This Knicks team isn't the same one that only won 32 games last season. It's a different team. So what you're saying makes no sense. What we do know is that Rose didn't play with Melo, KP and Lee last year. If you really believe that isn't a better supporting cast then I don't know what to say. Do you really want us to believe that Rose won't find better spacing playing with these players? You think Rose won't make the pass to a Melo, KP or Lee if they're open?

He had 2 excellent all-star teammates last year. When I said I don't think this is a better supporting cast, I meant compared to his all-star teammates in Chicago the past few seasons, not compared to the Knicks roster last year. It's possible Rose thinks these guys are better than his all-stars in Chicago or he just likes them more. Then maybe (but not definitely) he will take better shots.

So you're just gonna fall back on the "Rose played with All Stars" line but not take a deeper look at that team and how this team is actually structured? Melo, KP and Lee can spread the floor in a FAR superior way to the Starting lineups he had last year.

  
G	W	L	W/L%	Starting Lineup
12	7	5	.583	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose ▪ T. Snell
12	6	6	.500	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ D. Rose ▪ T. Snell
9	4	5	.444	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose
7	3	4	.429	M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ D. Rose
6	3	3	.500	J. Butler ▪ M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ D. Rose
4	3	1	.750	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ D. McDermott ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose
3	1	2	.333	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ D. Rose
3	3	0	1.000	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ K. Hinrich ▪ N. Mirotic
3	1	2	.333	M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ T. Snell

How about Noah?

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:THANK YOU CRUSHALOT!!! That is a masterpiece of breaking down exactly what the real deal is with Melo and this team. Phil has put a team together that has a real legit chance to be a top team in this league. Each player will help the other to see much easier and more open looks.

Hornacek will also be able to spread the love with his rotations. We shouldn't have to play any part of the game without at least one of our top 6 players on the floor. People should not underestimate the impact that will have.

It is a great video. I hope Rose will want to share the ball (and stays healthy). It's amazing Phil, Dolan, Mills, etc. have not surrounded Melo with even one adequate play-maker.

If you count Noah then that would make one but I know you mean guard. Jennings seemed like he was making strides of becoming an adequate play-maker but then he got hurt. I expect PGs to avg at least 8 ast per 36. On this team the two guards are not going to help so it will be up to the PGs, Noah, and KP to make plays for Melo. I think having Noah IQ will really help Melo especially when he post up because he needs a big that knows when to flash high to create a better passing angle instead of having Melo tussle around on the block and eat up seconds while the guard trying an entry pass struggles to find an passing window he is comfortable with. If Noah can keep up his +5 ast per 36 avg while playing 70+ games it will go along way to helping out the short comings of Rose as a play-maker.

In a perfect world Rose would change his game and becomes a real distributor. I want to see 10 ast this year. If he was a better scorer then I wouldn't think he would need that many but he has never scored efficiently enough to warrant the shots he takes which decreases his ast opps. He is playing with an older and slightly different Melo but it would be nice if Rose could have a revival like Iverson did when playing with Melo in Denver. Iverson was the older vet then so maybe shaving nearly 8% off his usg% came easier I don't know.

Yeah, good point about Noah (if he can stay healthy). I hope Rose can have the humility to realize that he really should only be shooting near the rim and creating for others.

REALLY? I think you are sounding a bit ridiculous now. If you think that Rose and Jennings are not going to make a marked improvement for this team you're LOST. They will make the pass to Melo, KP, Lee and Noah. They will make the pass to open teammates. This notion that they will somehow ignore players they respect is bogus. Just because these aren't Pure PG's that look to pass the ball at every moment doesn't mean they aren't going to have a positive impact for this team. They're scoring guards.

Also not only Noah, but Melo, KP, KOQ and Willy can pass the ball effectively. There will be enough TEAM passing to make things work.

Again, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't take a crystal ball out and foresee players making dramatic changes. I expect players to do what they've always done until they actually show me otherwise. Normally people don't expect a player to take better shots when he goes from a .550 team (Bulls last 2 year average) to a sub .400 team. They'd expect worse shots actually. Maybe Hornacek will get through to Rose in a way that other coaches haven't. I haven't ruled out the possibility by any means but I don't give it high odds either.

You're failing is that you are assuming that the behavior is due to some flaw of the player rather than due to circumstances. Just like the video points out WHO a player is playing with has a HUGE impact on how they play. So you are making a judgment based on a lack of information. You think you have facts but in truth you're only looking at the results and not the cause.

Rose will pass the ball:

2013-14

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Deng, Luol	21.7%	  13.0	0.7	0.8	3.0	26.7	0.7	2.4	29.2	0.1	0.6	16.7
Noah, Joakim	20.1%	  12.0	0.6	0.7	1.6	43.8	0.7	1.6	43.8	0.0	0.0	-
Butler, Jimmy	17.4%	  10.4	0.8	1.0	2.2	45.5	0.6	1.2	50.0	0.4	1.0	40.0
Boozer, Carlos	16.1%	   9.6	1.3	1.6	3.2	50.0	1.6	3.2	50.0	0.0	0.0	-
Hinrich, Kirk	12.0%	   7.2	0.2	0.2	0.7	28.6	0.1	0.3	33.3	0.1	0.4	25.0
Dunleavy, Mike	7.9%	   4.7	0.6	0.6	0.9	66.7	0.3	0.5	60.0	0.3	0.4	75.0
Gibson, Taj	3.5%	   2.1	0.1	0.1	0.5	20.0	0.1	0.5	20.0	0.0	0.0	-
Mohammed, Nazr	0.8%	   0.5	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	-
Snell, Tony	0.5%	   0.3	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.1	0.0	0.0	0.1	0.0

2014-15

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Gasol, Pau	28.3%	  15.2	1.7	2.3	5.0	46.5	2.3	4.9	46.4	0.1	0.1	50.0
Butler, Jimmy   21.3%	  11.4	1.2	1.4	2.9	48.3	1.0	2.1	48.1	0.4	0.8	48.7
Noah, Joakim    14.3%	   7.7	0.3	0.4	1.0	38.8	0.4	1.0	38.8	0.0	0.0	-
Dunleavy, Mike  11.9%	   6.4	0.5	0.6	1.3	44.6	0.3	0.6	48.4	0.3	0.7	41.2
Hinrich, Kirk	6.6%	   3.5	0.3	0.3	0.6	48.4	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.2	0.4	45.0
Snell, Tony     5.3%	   2.8	0.3	0.3	0.7	42.9	0.1	0.3	53.8	0.2	0.4	36.4
Gibson, Taj     5.2%	   2.8	0.3	0.3	0.7	45.9	0.3	0.7	45.9	0.0	0.0	-
Mirotic, Nikola	3.1%	   1.7	0.1	0.2	0.6	25.0	0.1	0.2	27.3	0.1	0.4	23.8
Brooks, Aaron	2.8%	   1.5	0.1	0.2	0.5	36.0	0.1	0.2	25.0	0.1	0.3	46.2

2015-16

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Gasol, Pau      28.2%	  15.5	1.5	1.8	3.8	48.2	1.8	3.6	49.2	0.1	0.2	27.3
Butler, Jimmy	25.8%	  14.2	0.6	1.4	3.4	42.3	1.2	2.6	46.8	0.2	0.8	27.8
Mirotic, Nikola	8.6%	   4.7	0.4	0.5	1.2	40.5	0.2	0.5	40.0	0.3	0.7	40.8
Gibson, Taj	8.5%	   4.7	0.4	0.6	1.0	56.3	0.6	1.0	56.3	0.0	0.0	-
Moore, E'Twaun	6.0%	   3.3	0.4	0.5	0.9	54.8	0.3	0.6	54.1	0.2	0.4	56.0
McDermott, Doug	4.6%	   2.5	0.4	0.4	0.9	46.8	0.2	0.4	41.4	0.3	0.5	51.5
Snell, Tony	4.2%	   2.3	0.3	0.3	0.7	50.0	0.1	0.2	46.7	0.2	0.4	51.7
Portis, Bobby	3.8%	   2.1	0.2	0.2	0.7	31.1	0.2	0.6	35.0	0.0	0.1	0.0
Dunleavy, Mike	3.5%	   1.9	0.2	0.2	0.5	51.6	0.1	0.2	50.0	0.1	0.3	52.9
Noah, Joakim	3.3%	   1.8	0.1	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.0	0.0	-
Brooks, Aaron	1.1%	   0.6	0.0	0.1	0.2	28.6	0.1	0.1	60.0	0.0	0.1	11.1

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/passes/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=FREQUENCY&dir=1

What makes the big difference is players being open and Rose having respect for that player's scoring ability. He will pass to his teammates on the Knicks because he respects their ability to score and they will be open.

I definitely realize the situation impacts player performance. It is not normal to predict that a player going to a team with 10 less wins has a better supporting cast though. However, if Rose mistakenly believes this roster is better, he might start taking better shots, which would help a lot.

Again you're making strange assumptions. This Knicks team isn't the same one that only won 32 games last season. It's a different team. So what you're saying makes no sense. What we do know is that Rose didn't play with Melo, KP and Lee last year. If you really believe that isn't a better supporting cast then I don't know what to say. Do you really want us to believe that Rose won't find better spacing playing with these players? You think Rose won't make the pass to a Melo, KP or Lee if they're open?

He had 2 excellent all-star teammates last year. When I said I don't think this is a better supporting cast, I meant compared to his all-star teammates in Chicago the past few seasons, not compared to the Knicks roster last year. It's possible Rose thinks these guys are better than his all-stars in Chicago or he just likes them more. Then maybe (but not definitely) he will take better shots.

So you're just gonna fall back on the "Rose played with All Stars" line but not take a deeper look at that team and how this team is actually structured? Melo, KP and Lee can spread the floor in a FAR superior way to the Starting lineups he had last year.

  
G	W	L	W/L%	Starting Lineup
12	7	5	.583	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose ▪ T. Snell
12	6	6	.500	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ D. Rose ▪ T. Snell
9	4	5	.444	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose
7	3	4	.429	M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ D. Rose
6	3	3	.500	J. Butler ▪ M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ D. Rose
4	3	1	.750	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ D. McDermott ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose
3	1	2	.333	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ D. Rose
3	3	0	1.000	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ K. Hinrich ▪ N. Mirotic
3	1	2	.333	M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ T. Snell

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:THANK YOU CRUSHALOT!!! That is a masterpiece of breaking down exactly what the real deal is with Melo and this team. Phil has put a team together that has a real legit chance to be a top team in this league. Each player will help the other to see much easier and more open looks.

Hornacek will also be able to spread the love with his rotations. We shouldn't have to play any part of the game without at least one of our top 6 players on the floor. People should not underestimate the impact that will have.

It is a great video. I hope Rose will want to share the ball (and stays healthy). It's amazing Phil, Dolan, Mills, etc. have not surrounded Melo with even one adequate play-maker.

If you count Noah then that would make one but I know you mean guard. Jennings seemed like he was making strides of becoming an adequate play-maker but then he got hurt. I expect PGs to avg at least 8 ast per 36. On this team the two guards are not going to help so it will be up to the PGs, Noah, and KP to make plays for Melo. I think having Noah IQ will really help Melo especially when he post up because he needs a big that knows when to flash high to create a better passing angle instead of having Melo tussle around on the block and eat up seconds while the guard trying an entry pass struggles to find an passing window he is comfortable with. If Noah can keep up his +5 ast per 36 avg while playing 70+ games it will go along way to helping out the short comings of Rose as a play-maker.

In a perfect world Rose would change his game and becomes a real distributor. I want to see 10 ast this year. If he was a better scorer then I wouldn't think he would need that many but he has never scored efficiently enough to warrant the shots he takes which decreases his ast opps. He is playing with an older and slightly different Melo but it would be nice if Rose could have a revival like Iverson did when playing with Melo in Denver. Iverson was the older vet then so maybe shaving nearly 8% off his usg% came easier I don't know.

Yeah, good point about Noah (if he can stay healthy). I hope Rose can have the humility to realize that he really should only be shooting near the rim and creating for others.

REALLY? I think you are sounding a bit ridiculous now. If you think that Rose and Jennings are not going to make a marked improvement for this team you're LOST. They will make the pass to Melo, KP, Lee and Noah. They will make the pass to open teammates. This notion that they will somehow ignore players they respect is bogus. Just because these aren't Pure PG's that look to pass the ball at every moment doesn't mean they aren't going to have a positive impact for this team. They're scoring guards.

Also not only Noah, but Melo, KP, KOQ and Willy can pass the ball effectively. There will be enough TEAM passing to make things work.

maybe he thinks jose "red carpet" calderon was markedly better

You might be confusing me with mreinman. That said, I think Rose hurt his team on offense (not defense) more than Calderon did last year. 16 points on 16 shots a game is just brutal. But if Rose is healthy and has a better mindset next year, he'll be a big improvement from Calderon. Even if he plays like he did in the 2nd half of last season, it might be a little improvement.

He probably hurt the bulls worse on defense. He was down right awful and was even worse on D as his offense improved a little towards the end of the year.

That I'm not sure about. If you go to 82games.com and look at opponent production, Calderon's was at 20.2 and Rose was 16.5. According to the player tracking data, Rose's man shot 44.8% and Calderon's shot 47.0%. Are you looking at other numbers?

I was referring to his on off numbers as they affected chi

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:THANK YOU CRUSHALOT!!! That is a masterpiece of breaking down exactly what the real deal is with Melo and this team. Phil has put a team together that has a real legit chance to be a top team in this league. Each player will help the other to see much easier and more open looks.

Hornacek will also be able to spread the love with his rotations. We shouldn't have to play any part of the game without at least one of our top 6 players on the floor. People should not underestimate the impact that will have.

It is a great video. I hope Rose will want to share the ball (and stays healthy). It's amazing Phil, Dolan, Mills, etc. have not surrounded Melo with even one adequate play-maker.

If you count Noah then that would make one but I know you mean guard. Jennings seemed like he was making strides of becoming an adequate play-maker but then he got hurt. I expect PGs to avg at least 8 ast per 36. On this team the two guards are not going to help so it will be up to the PGs, Noah, and KP to make plays for Melo. I think having Noah IQ will really help Melo especially when he post up because he needs a big that knows when to flash high to create a better passing angle instead of having Melo tussle around on the block and eat up seconds while the guard trying an entry pass struggles to find an passing window he is comfortable with. If Noah can keep up his +5 ast per 36 avg while playing 70+ games it will go along way to helping out the short comings of Rose as a play-maker.

In a perfect world Rose would change his game and becomes a real distributor. I want to see 10 ast this year. If he was a better scorer then I wouldn't think he would need that many but he has never scored efficiently enough to warrant the shots he takes which decreases his ast opps. He is playing with an older and slightly different Melo but it would be nice if Rose could have a revival like Iverson did when playing with Melo in Denver. Iverson was the older vet then so maybe shaving nearly 8% off his usg% came easier I don't know.

Yeah, good point about Noah (if he can stay healthy). I hope Rose can have the humility to realize that he really should only be shooting near the rim and creating for others.

REALLY? I think you are sounding a bit ridiculous now. If you think that Rose and Jennings are not going to make a marked improvement for this team you're LOST. They will make the pass to Melo, KP, Lee and Noah. They will make the pass to open teammates. This notion that they will somehow ignore players they respect is bogus. Just because these aren't Pure PG's that look to pass the ball at every moment doesn't mean they aren't going to have a positive impact for this team. They're scoring guards.

Also not only Noah, but Melo, KP, KOQ and Willy can pass the ball effectively. There will be enough TEAM passing to make things work.

Again, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't take a crystal ball out and foresee players making dramatic changes. I expect players to do what they've always done until they actually show me otherwise. Normally people don't expect a player to take better shots when he goes from a .550 team (Bulls last 2 year average) to a sub .400 team. They'd expect worse shots actually. Maybe Hornacek will get through to Rose in a way that other coaches haven't. I haven't ruled out the possibility by any means but I don't give it high odds either.

You're failing is that you are assuming that the behavior is due to some flaw of the player rather than due to circumstances. Just like the video points out WHO a player is playing with has a HUGE impact on how they play. So you are making a judgment based on a lack of information. You think you have facts but in truth you're only looking at the results and not the cause.

Rose will pass the ball:

2013-14

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Deng, Luol	21.7%	  13.0	0.7	0.8	3.0	26.7	0.7	2.4	29.2	0.1	0.6	16.7
Noah, Joakim	20.1%	  12.0	0.6	0.7	1.6	43.8	0.7	1.6	43.8	0.0	0.0	-
Butler, Jimmy	17.4%	  10.4	0.8	1.0	2.2	45.5	0.6	1.2	50.0	0.4	1.0	40.0
Boozer, Carlos	16.1%	   9.6	1.3	1.6	3.2	50.0	1.6	3.2	50.0	0.0	0.0	-
Hinrich, Kirk	12.0%	   7.2	0.2	0.2	0.7	28.6	0.1	0.3	33.3	0.1	0.4	25.0
Dunleavy, Mike	7.9%	   4.7	0.6	0.6	0.9	66.7	0.3	0.5	60.0	0.3	0.4	75.0
Gibson, Taj	3.5%	   2.1	0.1	0.1	0.5	20.0	0.1	0.5	20.0	0.0	0.0	-
Mohammed, Nazr	0.8%	   0.5	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.0	-
Snell, Tony	0.5%	   0.3	0.0	0.0	0.2	0.0	0.0	0.1	0.0	0.0	0.1	0.0

2014-15

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Gasol, Pau	28.3%	  15.2	1.7	2.3	5.0	46.5	2.3	4.9	46.4	0.1	0.1	50.0
Butler, Jimmy   21.3%	  11.4	1.2	1.4	2.9	48.3	1.0	2.1	48.1	0.4	0.8	48.7
Noah, Joakim    14.3%	   7.7	0.3	0.4	1.0	38.8	0.4	1.0	38.8	0.0	0.0	-
Dunleavy, Mike  11.9%	   6.4	0.5	0.6	1.3	44.6	0.3	0.6	48.4	0.3	0.7	41.2
Hinrich, Kirk	6.6%	   3.5	0.3	0.3	0.6	48.4	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.2	0.4	45.0
Snell, Tony     5.3%	   2.8	0.3	0.3	0.7	42.9	0.1	0.3	53.8	0.2	0.4	36.4
Gibson, Taj     5.2%	   2.8	0.3	0.3	0.7	45.9	0.3	0.7	45.9	0.0	0.0	-
Mirotic, Nikola	3.1%	   1.7	0.1	0.2	0.6	25.0	0.1	0.2	27.3	0.1	0.4	23.8
Brooks, Aaron	2.8%	   1.5	0.1	0.2	0.5	36.0	0.1	0.2	25.0	0.1	0.3	46.2

2015-16

Pass To	Team	FREQUENCY PASS	AST	FGM	FGA	FG%	2FGM	2FGA	2FG%	3FGM	3FGA	3FG%
Gasol, Pau      28.2%	  15.5	1.5	1.8	3.8	48.2	1.8	3.6	49.2	0.1	0.2	27.3
Butler, Jimmy	25.8%	  14.2	0.6	1.4	3.4	42.3	1.2	2.6	46.8	0.2	0.8	27.8
Mirotic, Nikola	8.6%	   4.7	0.4	0.5	1.2	40.5	0.2	0.5	40.0	0.3	0.7	40.8
Gibson, Taj	8.5%	   4.7	0.4	0.6	1.0	56.3	0.6	1.0	56.3	0.0	0.0	-
Moore, E'Twaun	6.0%	   3.3	0.4	0.5	0.9	54.8	0.3	0.6	54.1	0.2	0.4	56.0
McDermott, Doug	4.6%	   2.5	0.4	0.4	0.9	46.8	0.2	0.4	41.4	0.3	0.5	51.5
Snell, Tony	4.2%	   2.3	0.3	0.3	0.7	50.0	0.1	0.2	46.7	0.2	0.4	51.7
Portis, Bobby	3.8%	   2.1	0.2	0.2	0.7	31.1	0.2	0.6	35.0	0.0	0.1	0.0
Dunleavy, Mike	3.5%	   1.9	0.2	0.2	0.5	51.6	0.1	0.2	50.0	0.1	0.3	52.9
Noah, Joakim	3.3%	   1.8	0.1	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.1	0.2	54.5	0.0	0.0	-
Brooks, Aaron	1.1%	   0.6	0.0	0.1	0.2	28.6	0.1	0.1	60.0	0.0	0.1	11.1

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201565/tracking/passes/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=FREQUENCY&dir=1

What makes the big difference is players being open and Rose having respect for that player's scoring ability. He will pass to his teammates on the Knicks because he respects their ability to score and they will be open.

I definitely realize the situation impacts player performance. It is not normal to predict that a player going to a team with 10 less wins has a better supporting cast though. However, if Rose mistakenly believes this roster is better, he might start taking better shots, which would help a lot.

Again you're making strange assumptions. This Knicks team isn't the same one that only won 32 games last season. It's a different team. So what you're saying makes no sense. What we do know is that Rose didn't play with Melo, KP and Lee last year. If you really believe that isn't a better supporting cast then I don't know what to say. Do you really want us to believe that Rose won't find better spacing playing with these players? You think Rose won't make the pass to a Melo, KP or Lee if they're open?

He had 2 excellent all-star teammates last year. When I said I don't think this is a better supporting cast, I meant compared to his all-star teammates in Chicago the past few seasons, not compared to the Knicks roster last year. It's possible Rose thinks these guys are better than his all-stars in Chicago or he just likes them more. Then maybe (but not definitely) he will take better shots.

So you're just gonna fall back on the "Rose played with All Stars" line but not take a deeper look at that team and how this team is actually structured? Melo, KP and Lee can spread the floor in a FAR superior way to the Starting lineups he had last year.

  
G	W	L	W/L%	Starting Lineup
12	7	5	.583	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose ▪ T. Snell
12	6	6	.500	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ D. Rose ▪ T. Snell
9	4	5	.444	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose
7	3	4	.429	M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ D. Rose
6	3	3	.500	J. Butler ▪ M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ D. Rose
4	3	1	.750	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ D. McDermott ▪ N. Mirotic ▪ D. Rose
3	1	2	.333	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ D. Rose
3	3	0	1.000	J. Butler ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ K. Hinrich ▪ N. Mirotic
3	1	2	.333	M. Dunleavy ▪ P. Gasol ▪ T. Gibson ▪ E. Moore ▪ T. Snell

How about Noah?

What about Noah? He didn't start last year. What I do know is that Melo, KP and Lee make more sense together with Rose. It's a well balanced lineup. Butler isn't as effective without the ball and that was a problem for the Bulls.

CrushAlot wrote:

Good breakdown. Like the "Felton, Larkin, Smith and Afflalo not being enough" line. Surprised Sasha and Jose did not at least get a honorable mention.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:THANK YOU CRUSHALOT!!! That is a masterpiece of breaking down exactly what the real deal is with Melo and this team. Phil has put a team together that has a real legit chance to be a top team in this league. Each player will help the other to see much easier and more open looks.

Hornacek will also be able to spread the love with his rotations. We shouldn't have to play any part of the game without at least one of our top 6 players on the floor. People should not underestimate the impact that will have.

It is a great video. I hope Rose will want to share the ball (and stays healthy). It's amazing Phil, Dolan, Mills, etc. have not surrounded Melo with even one adequate play-maker.

If you count Noah then that would make one but I know you mean guard. Jennings seemed like he was making strides of becoming an adequate play-maker but then he got hurt. I expect PGs to avg at least 8 ast per 36. On this team the two guards are not going to help so it will be up to the PGs, Noah, and KP to make plays for Melo. I think having Noah IQ will really help Melo especially when he post up because he needs a big that knows when to flash high to create a better passing angle instead of having Melo tussle around on the block and eat up seconds while the guard trying an entry pass struggles to find an passing window he is comfortable with. If Noah can keep up his +5 ast per 36 avg while playing 70+ games it will go along way to helping out the short comings of Rose as a play-maker.

In a perfect world Rose would change his game and becomes a real distributor. I want to see 10 ast this year. If he was a better scorer then I wouldn't think he would need that many but he has never scored efficiently enough to warrant the shots he takes which decreases his ast opps. He is playing with an older and slightly different Melo but it would be nice if Rose could have a revival like Iverson did when playing with Melo in Denver. Iverson was the older vet then so maybe shaving nearly 8% off his usg% came easier I don't know.

Yeah, good point about Noah (if he can stay healthy). I hope Rose can have the humility to realize that he really should only be shooting near the rim and creating for others.

REALLY? I think you are sounding a bit ridiculous now. If you think that Rose and Jennings are not going to make a marked improvement for this team you're LOST. They will make the pass to Melo, KP, Lee and Noah. They will make the pass to open teammates. This notion that they will somehow ignore players they respect is bogus. Just because these aren't Pure PG's that look to pass the ball at every moment doesn't mean they aren't going to have a positive impact for this team. They're scoring guards.

Also not only Noah, but Melo, KP, KOQ and Willy can pass the ball effectively. There will be enough TEAM passing to make things work.

maybe he thinks jose "red carpet" calderon was markedly better

You might be confusing me with mreinman. That said, I think Rose hurt his team on offense (not defense) more than Calderon did last year. 16 points on 16 shots a game is just brutal. But if Rose is healthy and has a better mindset next year, he'll be a big improvement from Calderon. Even if he plays like he did in the 2nd half of last season, it might be a little improvement.

He probably hurt the bulls worse on defense. He was down right awful and was even worse on D as his offense improved a little towards the end of the year.

That I'm not sure about. If you go to 82games.com and look at opponent production, Calderon's was at 20.2 and Rose was 16.5. According to the player tracking data, Rose's man shot 44.8% and Calderon's shot 47.0%. Are you looking at other numbers?

I was referring to his on off numbers as they affected chi

Can you post the #s for him and Calderon that you're talking about?

I was just referring to how Rose impacted Chicago.

http://www.blogabull.com/2016/4/27/11510276/derrick-rose-stats-higlights-contract

Another stat to look at is on/off court numbers. The Bulls were 0.6pts/100 better offensively with Rose off the court and a full 4 points better defensively with Rose off. Yikes. I tend to think that by the end of the season, the Bulls were definitely better offensively with Rose on, but way better off with Rose sitting for defensive purposes. Plus, it's hard not to be better offensively with Rose on the court when you look at the weak backups at the PG spot. Last season, the Bulls were about the same on both ends with Rose on or off the court. In short, I think Rose's abysmal defense and inability to contribute anything on offense when he wasn't scoring indicates that Rose actually was worse this season than last.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:THANK YOU CRUSHALOT!!! That is a masterpiece of breaking down exactly what the real deal is with Melo and this team. Phil has put a team together that has a real legit chance to be a top team in this league. Each player will help the other to see much easier and more open looks.

Hornacek will also be able to spread the love with his rotations. We shouldn't have to play any part of the game without at least one of our top 6 players on the floor. People should not underestimate the impact that will have.

It is a great video. I hope Rose will want to share the ball (and stays healthy). It's amazing Phil, Dolan, Mills, etc. have not surrounded Melo with even one adequate play-maker.

If you count Noah then that would make one but I know you mean guard. Jennings seemed like he was making strides of becoming an adequate play-maker but then he got hurt. I expect PGs to avg at least 8 ast per 36. On this team the two guards are not going to help so it will be up to the PGs, Noah, and KP to make plays for Melo. I think having Noah IQ will really help Melo especially when he post up because he needs a big that knows when to flash high to create a better passing angle instead of having Melo tussle around on the block and eat up seconds while the guard trying an entry pass struggles to find an passing window he is comfortable with. If Noah can keep up his +5 ast per 36 avg while playing 70+ games it will go along way to helping out the short comings of Rose as a play-maker.

In a perfect world Rose would change his game and becomes a real distributor. I want to see 10 ast this year. If he was a better scorer then I wouldn't think he would need that many but he has never scored efficiently enough to warrant the shots he takes which decreases his ast opps. He is playing with an older and slightly different Melo but it would be nice if Rose could have a revival like Iverson did when playing with Melo in Denver. Iverson was the older vet then so maybe shaving nearly 8% off his usg% came easier I don't know.

Yeah, good point about Noah (if he can stay healthy). I hope Rose can have the humility to realize that he really should only be shooting near the rim and creating for others.

REALLY? I think you are sounding a bit ridiculous now. If you think that Rose and Jennings are not going to make a marked improvement for this team you're LOST. They will make the pass to Melo, KP, Lee and Noah. They will make the pass to open teammates. This notion that they will somehow ignore players they respect is bogus. Just because these aren't Pure PG's that look to pass the ball at every moment doesn't mean they aren't going to have a positive impact for this team. They're scoring guards.

Also not only Noah, but Melo, KP, KOQ and Willy can pass the ball effectively. There will be enough TEAM passing to make things work.

maybe he thinks jose "red carpet" calderon was markedly better

You might be confusing me with mreinman. That said, I think Rose hurt his team on offense (not defense) more than Calderon did last year. 16 points on 16 shots a game is just brutal. But if Rose is healthy and has a better mindset next year, he'll be a big improvement from Calderon. Even if he plays like he did in the 2nd half of last season, it might be a little improvement.

He probably hurt the bulls worse on defense. He was down right awful and was even worse on D as his offense improved a little towards the end of the year.

That I'm not sure about. If you go to 82games.com and look at opponent production, Calderon's was at 20.2 and Rose was 16.5. According to the player tracking data, Rose's man shot 44.8% and Calderon's shot 47.0%. Are you looking at other numbers?

I was referring to his on off numbers as they affected chi

Can you post the #s for him and Calderon that you're talking about?

I was just referring to how Rose impacted Chicago.

http://www.blogabull.com/2016/4/27/11510276/derrick-rose-stats-higlights-contract

Another stat to look at is on/off court numbers. The Bulls were 0.6pts/100 better offensively with Rose off the court and a full 4 points better defensively with Rose off. Yikes. I tend to think that by the end of the season, the Bulls were definitely better offensively with Rose on, but way better off with Rose sitting for defensive purposes. Plus, it's hard not to be better offensively with Rose on the court when you look at the weak backups at the PG spot. Last season, the Bulls were about the same on both ends with Rose on or off the court. In short, I think Rose's abysmal defense and inability to contribute anything on offense when he wasn't scoring indicates that Rose actually was worse this season than last.

Interesting, that's just one of many stats though (and not sure it's worse than Calderon's). Don't forget if you on/off is bad, it just means your sub is better than you (or your team does better with your sub). It doesn't necessarily mean you're bad. 4 points is a lot though. It would e more useful to look at many years of data for all these stats and then consider them together, but the player tracking stats are in their first year I think.

True but he also ranked poorly in Drpm if you read the article, he rates a -3.17 which landed him 83rd. That's 83rd for PGs not the entire league.

I hope Rose can go back to being slightly below average to average defensively and above average offensively. I'm not expecting greatness but think it's possible he can play like a quality starting PG.

CrushAlot wrote:From Tommy Dee. Collective peak is an interesting term that might allow cherry picking but it still shows a dramatic difference.

Rose and Jennings at their collective peak combined to drive almost 20 times per game, while Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon combined to average 5.7 drives per game in 2015-16.

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/is-melo-a-different-player-on-team-usa/193777276

Injury hampered recent performance makes it harder to gauge what we can expect from Rose and Jennings but IMO they do bring certain basic functionality that this team has lacked. Jose, Gallo and Grant all played hesitant and none of them were great breakdown guards. Not at the level of Rose n Jennings. That talent put to use in a PnR and Screen heavy offense is going to have a positive impact when paired with threats like Melo and KP and a good catch and shoot guard like Lee. Noah may not be what he was but he still passes at a high level and with so many targets he's gonna have a positive impact. IMO it just comes down to fit and chemistry. This unit makes sense along with the coach and his style. Hopefully it all works to plan.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:From Tommy Dee. Collective peak is an interesting term that might allow cherry picking but it still shows a dramatic difference.

Rose and Jennings at their collective peak combined to drive almost 20 times per game, while Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon combined to average 5.7 drives per game in 2015-16.

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/is-melo-a-different-player-on-team-usa/193777276

Injury hampered recent performance makes it harder to gauge what we can expect from Rose and Jennings but IMO they do bring certain basic functionality that this team has lacked. Jose, Gallo and Grant all played hesitant and none of them were great breakdown guards. Not at the level of Rose n Jennings. That talent put to use in a PnR and Screen heavy offense is going to have a positive impact when paired with threats like Melo and KP and a good catch and shoot guard like Lee. Noah may not be what he was but he still passes at a high level and with so many targets he's gonna have a positive impact. IMO it just comes down to fit and chemistry. This unit makes sense along with the coach and his style. Hopefully it all works to plan.

I disagree about grant, this kid was driving to the hole at will in SL last yr. He became a mental mess a month after the season started. One minute they wanted him to run and pick up the pace, the next minute they wanted him to slow it down and run the team, his drives seem to end up as follies because of a over crowded paint, with just one offensive player standing beyond the 3 pt line.

That's why numbers don't always tell the truth, because there was a lot more that went into the lack of drives to the basket.

Knowing how to play at different speeds is just the job of an NBA PG! Yes there was a great deal of confusion with Grant tho much of it was his own problem. Sasha was one of the fastest guards in the league in terms of his average speed. Shved played fast and aggressive in the same exact system. It wasn't that anyone was telling Grant to play slow and hesitant. He just had problems mentally processing what to do. He was much more confident when they ran Drag Screens and PnR. At the end of the year he looked much better and more like the early season Grant.

I'm not saying Grant can't play better. I was saying that he and our other guards DIDN'T breakdown the defense anywhere close to Rose aggressiveness last year. Sure Grant has the ability to play more like that but he didn't last year.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:From Tommy Dee. Collective peak is an interesting term that might allow cherry picking but it still shows a dramatic difference.

Rose and Jennings at their collective peak combined to drive almost 20 times per game, while Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon combined to average 5.7 drives per game in 2015-16.

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/is-melo-a-different-player-on-team-usa/193777276

Injury hampered recent performance makes it harder to gauge what we can expect from Rose and Jennings but IMO they do bring certain basic functionality that this team has lacked. Jose, Gallo and Grant all played hesitant and none of them were great breakdown guards. Not at the level of Rose n Jennings. That talent put to use in a PnR and Screen heavy offense is going to have a positive impact when paired with threats like Melo and KP and a good catch and shoot guard like Lee. Noah may not be what he was but he still passes at a high level and with so many targets he's gonna have a positive impact. IMO it just comes down to fit and chemistry. This unit makes sense along with the coach and his style. Hopefully it all works to plan.

I disagree about grant, this kid was driving to the hole at will in SL last yr. He became a mental mess a month after the season started. One minute they wanted him to run and pick up the pace, the next minute they wanted him to slow it down and run the team, his drives seem to end up as follies because of a over crowded paint, with just one offensive player standing beyond the 3 pt line.

That's why numbers don't always tell the truth, because there was a lot more that went into the lack of drives to the basket.

Knowing how to play at different speeds is just the job of an NBA PG! Yes there was a great deal of confusion with Grant tho much of it was his own problem. Sasha was one of the fastest guards in the league in terms of his average speed. Shved played fast and aggressive in the same exact system. It wasn't that anyone was telling Grant to play slow and hesitant. He just had problems mentally processing what to do. He was much more confident when they ran Drag Screens and PnR. At the end of the year he looked much better and more like the early season Grant.

I'm not saying Grant can't play better. I was saying that he and our other guards DIDN'T breakdown the defense anywhere close to Rose aggressiveness last year. Sure Grant has the ability to play more like that but he didn't last year.

THERE's no way you can break down a defense without spacing, if 5 guys are in the lane, 2 offensive and 3 defensive, where can you go, your almost force to shoot a mid range jumper, which was the case on 80% of our possessions.

The object has always been to play faster and spread the floor

What about Transition and early offense? Nothing stopped Grant from doing that but himself mostly. We all know that the Triangle isn't a 4 out style offense, so yes it's not as wide open as that kind of offense tends to be. However, it's not true that there are always 5 guys in the lane as you're describing it. The way the Triangle is designed it's not really always about a PG having to breakdown a defense all by himself. A lot of it comes off cuts and Dribble Hand Offs.

This Pinch Post cut by Shved creates enough of a lane for a guard to drive. With only one man to beat at the rim and he's not the Center.

Here's the Spurs running the same kind of Pinch Post play.