nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:This is an old article, not a lot of new topics (Tried to see if Nix posted it) I thought it was interesting because it showed that Hornacek is into advanced stats, but looks at other info as well. Good article.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/calm-cool-and-collected-how-jeff-hornaceks-keeping-the-suns-hot/

I asked Hornacek, who has consistently criticized mid-range jump shots which are the scourge of advanced metrics, if there is a divide in coaching circles on the fundamental, 18-foot jumper and its role in the NBA.

"I thinks so. Analytics people say you should never take those shots. But here's how I look at it.
"I looked at the 14 of 16 playoff teams last year their effective field goal percentage was right at 51 or higher. The two teams that weren't were Indiana and Memphis who were probably the two best defensive teams in the league. So the ultimate goal is, how do you get to that 51 percent?

If you look back to when we played, we didn't shoot a lot of threes. And if you look at the Utah teams I played on, we shot 50 percent from the field every year and we probably made 5 for 7 threes every game, so our effective field percentage probably was about 52 percent and we took a lot of mid-range jump shots. The goal is to look at the overall package and see how do you get to the overall number. If you've got a guy that can shoot 55 percent from those shots, why not shoot them? I don't think you can say it's black and white don't shoot those shots.

I think as coaches you also say, 'That's great, don't shoot those shots.' But then when you get in the playoffs, those are the shots you get because the defenses are so locked in, and you know how everyone plays, that those are the shots that come available, those 18-foot mid-range jump shots. And that's when you gotta make them. And if you haven't taken them all year long and then you're in the playoffs and you gotta make them, how's that going to work?"

Is there anyone in the league who shoots close to that percentage on midrange shots? I don't think so. It's a strange answer. Regardless, I'm happy that he's more informed about the metrics than many coaches are, or at least he seems to be.

I'm pretty sure Hornack knows what he's talking about. You're taking his comment a bit too seriously.
Clearly he was being a bit over the top to make a point. There are players who are pretty efficient from 15' in. I'm sure it's rare since the midrange game is a lost art. One article I saw said Durant and Ibaka both shot 49% from 15-19'.

It's questionable whether that should be considered efficient. You're talking 98 points per 100 shots. Now, you also occasionally but not often get fouled on midrange shots. At best, you probably get fouled enough to bring that up to league average efficiency (106.4 points per 100). Since you rarely get fouled on mid range shots, I'd think a player has to at least shoot a little above 50% for it to be considered a good shot.

You really are stuck in a very theoretical world. Everything is relative. When the defense puts you into a less desirable shooting position then RELATIVELY speaking the more efficient you can be from mid range the better. This isn't about comparing those shots to the most efficient offense possible. Most teams already know what are the most efficient shots, but defenses are of course trying to take those shots away. You have to have proficiency from everywhere just in case the defense does take away your desired shots. Of course you don't want to have to rely on mid range but sometimes you have no choice.

The Warriors pretty much shut down the Cavs 3pt role players. Those guys were rolling along at a high efficiency before the Finals. So the Cavs had to do to plans B and C.

	                Four Factors		
                Pace    eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-0)	86.0	.546	7.9	24.5	.147	120.4	103.5
DET (0-4)	86.0	.537	10.1	18.4	.189	110.5	95.0
                        Four Factors		
                Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-0)	91.2	.573	11.4	31.0	.160	122.9	112.0
ATL (0-4)	91.2	.515	13.1	22.8	.194	109.1	99.5
                        Four Factors		
                Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-2)	89.3	.570	11.8	22.8	.231	118.5	105.8
TOR (2-4)	89.3	.486	12.3	17.6	.188	101.2	90.3
                        Four Factors		
                Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-3)	92.0	.504	12.5	28.4	.210	109.1	100.4
GSW (3-4)	92.0	.512	13.0	24.2	.185	108.5	99.9

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:This is an old article, not a lot of new topics (Tried to see if Nix posted it) I thought it was interesting because it showed that Hornacek is into advanced stats, but looks at other info as well. Good article.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/calm-cool-and-collected-how-jeff-hornaceks-keeping-the-suns-hot/

I asked Hornacek, who has consistently criticized mid-range jump shots which are the scourge of advanced metrics, if there is a divide in coaching circles on the fundamental, 18-foot jumper and its role in the NBA.

"I thinks so. Analytics people say you should never take those shots. But here's how I look at it.
"I looked at the 14 of 16 playoff teams last year their effective field goal percentage was right at 51 or higher. The two teams that weren't were Indiana and Memphis who were probably the two best defensive teams in the league. So the ultimate goal is, how do you get to that 51 percent?

If you look back to when we played, we didn't shoot a lot of threes. And if you look at the Utah teams I played on, we shot 50 percent from the field every year and we probably made 5 for 7 threes every game, so our effective field percentage probably was about 52 percent and we took a lot of mid-range jump shots. The goal is to look at the overall package and see how do you get to the overall number. If you've got a guy that can shoot 55 percent from those shots, why not shoot them? I don't think you can say it's black and white don't shoot those shots.

I think as coaches you also say, 'That's great, don't shoot those shots.' But then when you get in the playoffs, those are the shots you get because the defenses are so locked in, and you know how everyone plays, that those are the shots that come available, those 18-foot mid-range jump shots. And that's when you gotta make them. And if you haven't taken them all year long and then you're in the playoffs and you gotta make them, how's that going to work?"

Is there anyone in the league who shoots close to that percentage on midrange shots? I don't think so. It's a strange answer. Regardless, I'm happy that he's more informed about the metrics than many coaches are, or at least he seems to be.

I'm pretty sure Hornack knows what he's talking about. You're taking his comment a bit too seriously.
Clearly he was being a bit over the top to make a point. There are players who are pretty efficient from 15' in. I'm sure it's rare since the midrange game is a lost art. One article I saw said Durant and Ibaka both shot 49% from 15-19'.

It's questionable whether that should be considered efficient. You're talking 98 points per 100 shots. Now, you also occasionally but not often get fouled on midrange shots. At best, you probably get fouled enough to bring that up to league average efficiency (106.4 points per 100). Since you rarely get fouled on mid range shots, I'd think a player has to at least shoot a little above 50% for it to be considered a good shot.

You really are stuck in a very theoretical world. Everything is relative. When the defense puts you into a less desirable shooting position then RELATIVELY speaking the more efficient you can be from mid range the better. This isn't about comparing those shots to the most efficient offense possible. Most teams already know what are the most efficient shots, but defenses are of course trying to take those shots away. You have to have proficiency from everywhere just in case the defense does take away your desired shots. Of course you don't want to have to rely on mid range but sometimes you have no choice.

The Warriors pretty much shut down the Cavs 3pt role players. Those guys were rolling along at a high efficiency before the Finals. So the Cavs had to do to plans B and C.

	                Four Factors		
                Pace    eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-0)	86.0	.546	7.9	24.5	.147	120.4	103.5
DET (0-4)	86.0	.537	10.1	18.4	.189	110.5	95.0
                        Four Factors		
                Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-0)	91.2	.573	11.4	31.0	.160	122.9	112.0
ATL (0-4)	91.2	.515	13.1	22.8	.194	109.1	99.5
                        Four Factors		
                Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-2)	89.3	.570	11.8	22.8	.231	118.5	105.8
TOR (2-4)	89.3	.486	12.3	17.6	.188	101.2	90.3
                        Four Factors		
                Pace	eFG%	TOV%	ORB%	FT/FGA	ORtg	PTS
CLE (4-3)	92.0	.504	12.5	28.4	.210	109.1	100.4
GSW (3-4)	92.0	.512	13.0	24.2	.185	108.5	99.9

I'm not opposed to ever shooting mid range shots but if there's a lot of time left on the clock, the player better be very good at it. It's a problem when a player takes half or even 70% of his shots from areas where his efficiency is poor. I think Hornacek agrees and is probably pretty close to me in his view though.

I'm pretty sure that JH is gonna have the Knicks looking to push the ball and look for early offense. After that he's still gonna look to spread the floor and either get to the rim or get a wide open 3. I'm convinced that he's gonna get this team to focus on the best shots. You have to be focused in practice on making it clear to players what the priorities of the offense are and what will help the team win. He's of course gonna have guys that are more efficient in the mid range take those shots if that proves to be what they do best. The key to me will be the pace, spacing, passing and aggressiveness. Learning how to create open shots that you want to take rather than the ones the defense wants is gonna be huge.

I really like Noah as a post passer for this team. It doesn't have to be 100% Rose creating with the ball. Good cuts and screens with a deft passer should lead to a lot of really good looks for this team.

mreinman wrote:lots of good mid range shooters who can't shoot the three ... parker, wade, duncan ... you need to take the shots that you are most efficient at, that is why they have shot charts.

Also, most players in the league (now and in the 80's and 90's as well) don't shoot efficiently from 15+ feet and its a shot that teams will need to take at times do to the shot clock running out and teams playing much smarter modern defense that run players off the 3 point line. This kind of defense is difficult to maintain and takes tremendous energy. If they run you off, players drive to the rim and if the lane collapses, the player kicks it out for another 3 attempt.

Generally, teams will be forced to take more mid range shots in the playoffs (even though cleveland was raining 3's at a record pace in the playoffs before the GS series when GS ran them off the line with intense defense). If you also look at playoff FG percentages, they go down as well.

Teams will get chances to practice those ugly mid range shots since sometimes that is all you have and the clock is running out ... smart teams don't really look for that shot early unless a player has proven that he is efficient from those areas (which few are).

Lets remember that shooting 35% (league average) from 3 has an eFg of 57%. Why shoot the long 2 even if you can hit it at 45+ percent if you can move back a bit and take the 3 at 57%? You do it if your options have run out and the clock is winding down. Shots late in the shot clock are always going to be at a much lower efficiency rate anyway so take what you get and make the most of it.

Nobody will ever say that Duncan should not shoot mid range shots. He was great at it and could not shoot the 3. Players need to play to their strengths.

Melo is a great catch and shoot 3 point shooter and not a very good/efficient mid range shooter though he is addicted to them and took more than anyone in the league. JH's first job is to change that horrible mind set.

People keep saying that cleveland won with the mid range in the finals and teams need to be able to hit those shots. How did cleveland do that when they were in the top 5 of the fewest mid range shots attempted during the season? I guess they took enough just to not forget how to do it. So obviously you don't need and shouldn't take a ton of mid range shots in the regular season to prepare yourself for the playoffs because if you do, you probable won't make the playoffs.

I'm nearly positive that the impact of Hornacek will be a shift away from long 2's. It just isn't something he's gonna let slide. It's simple to implement by drilling the spacing behind the 3pt line. Guys simply practice over and over, cutting to the corners or running shallow cuts to get back behind the 3pt line. People don't realize that HORNACEK was doing that stuff before Kerr did it in GS. Kerr basically stole some of that stuff from Hornacek. It's simply not how people look Hornacek.

Kerr, beyond being an NBA rookie in Phoenix, was a part-owner and consultant with the Suns from 2004 to 2007 and then served three seasons as their general manager, culminating with the 2010 Western Conference finals team and his exit. When he began coaching last season, it was Jeff Hornacek’s 2013-14 success as a rookie Suns coach that gave him inspiration and a model for how he would lead the Warriors. He said he even stole some of Hornacek’s plays for his playbook.

yellowboy90 wrote:http://www.nba.com/2016/news/features/lang_whitaker/07/21/confidence-high-on-knicks-season-for-derrick-rose/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6c&cid=nbacomsocial_tw_sf31501234

Q: Earlier today you spoke about being able to play and rely a little less on your athletic ability. What are some specific examples you can give?

ROSE: Just my mid-range game. How many people shoot from midrange in the NBA these days? That's an effective shot for me. A lot of people give it to me. I look at a player like Kobe: He was able to adapt over twenty years to every style of the NBA, and that takes a lot of hard work and seeing what you need to work on. Right now, it's shooting. In the NBA today, if you can't shoot there's no point in you even being on the floor. So this summer [for me] it's a ton of shots, getting up repetitions. And conditioning, of course -- you look at Cleveland and Golden State, the way they push the ball and play an uptempo-type game, you've got to be conditioned. And it's simple stuff, the fundamentals of the game -- footwork, dribbling, going back to the basics and really just sharpening everything so that when I'm on the floor I'm not thinking about it. I'm getting to my moves and getting to my spots without having to do a lot of dribbling. You look at Kobe, he's getting to his spots with purpose. Get to the spots with purpose, putting the defense always on its heels.

Does Rose know the meaning of effective? Also, why would defenses give you a shot that you are good at. That's not what defense is.

Its also not a video game if guys are taking away his mid range game then he's going to the basket. Can't stop both without a cheat code

EnySpree wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:http://www.nba.com/2016/news/features/lang_whitaker/07/21/confidence-high-on-knicks-season-for-derrick-rose/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6c&cid=nbacomsocial_tw_sf31501234

Q: Earlier today you spoke about being able to play and rely a little less on your athletic ability. What are some specific examples you can give?

ROSE: Just my mid-range game. How many people shoot from midrange in the NBA these days? That's an effective shot for me. A lot of people give it to me. I look at a player like Kobe: He was able to adapt over twenty years to every style of the NBA, and that takes a lot of hard work and seeing what you need to work on. Right now, it's shooting. In the NBA today, if you can't shoot there's no point in you even being on the floor. So this summer [for me] it's a ton of shots, getting up repetitions. And conditioning, of course -- you look at Cleveland and Golden State, the way they push the ball and play an uptempo-type game, you've got to be conditioned. And it's simple stuff, the fundamentals of the game -- footwork, dribbling, going back to the basics and really just sharpening everything so that when I'm on the floor I'm not thinking about it. I'm getting to my moves and getting to my spots without having to do a lot of dribbling. You look at Kobe, he's getting to his spots with purpose. Get to the spots with purpose, putting the defense always on its heels.

Does Rose know the meaning of effective? Also, why would defenses give you a shot that you are good at. That's not what defense is.

Its also not a video game if guys are taking away his mid range game then he's going to the basket. Can't stop both without a cheat code

Why would defense give you a shot you are good at? It happens all the time with elite players. But fans who used to be roll players wouldnt understand.

Im 43 and people still back off of me because 1 step and im at the rim. But what they dont know is im a good shooter. When you are good at both, the degense can only take away one of them. Unless u are tall enough to contest with lateral quickness to defend the drive. This is why i like ndour.

EnySpree wrote:Basketball is basketball I always say. No such thing as the modern game. You play to win. You don't pay to satisfy what the media is trying to pitch. You don't copy cat the team that won the most that year. You get a good group together and you play to the strengths of the team. The end.

Cartman718 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Basketball is basketball I always say. No such thing as the modern game. You play to win. You don't pay to satisfy what the media is trying to pitch. You don't copy cat the team that won the most that year. You get a good group together and you play to the strengths of the team. The end.

THIS! and this is exactly what Fisher and Jax didn't understand last year.

Basketball is not basketball?
You don't play to win?
You don't get a good group together?
You play to the weaknesses of the team?

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:http://www.nba.com/2016/news/features/lang_whitaker/07/21/confidence-high-on-knicks-season-for-derrick-rose/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6c&cid=nbacomsocial_tw_sf31501234

Q: Earlier today you spoke about being able to play and rely a little less on your athletic ability. What are some specific examples you can give?

ROSE: Just my mid-range game. How many people shoot from midrange in the NBA these days? That's an effective shot for me. A lot of people give it to me. I look at a player like Kobe: He was able to adapt over twenty years to every style of the NBA, and that takes a lot of hard work and seeing what you need to work on. Right now, it's shooting. In the NBA today, if you can't shoot there's no point in you even being on the floor. So this summer [for me] it's a ton of shots, getting up repetitions. And conditioning, of course -- you look at Cleveland and Golden State, the way they push the ball and play an uptempo-type game, you've got to be conditioned. And it's simple stuff, the fundamentals of the game -- footwork, dribbling, going back to the basics and really just sharpening everything so that when I'm on the floor I'm not thinking about it. I'm getting to my moves and getting to my spots without having to do a lot of dribbling. You look at Kobe, he's getting to his spots with purpose. Get to the spots with purpose, putting the defense always on its heels.

Does Rose know the meaning of effective? Also, why would defenses give you a shot that you are good at. That's not what defense is.

sheeeeesh. No coach has been able to convince melo that taking a ton of these shots hurt the team, why do we think that Rose can/will be convinced to change his shot selection?

Seems like many billionaire players don't like to be told what to do. They convince themselves that they know best regardless of mountains of evidence otherwise.

blkexec wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:http://www.nba.com/2016/news/features/lang_whitaker/07/21/confidence-high-on-knicks-season-for-derrick-rose/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt6c&cid=nbacomsocial_tw_sf31501234

Q: Earlier today you spoke about being able to play and rely a little less on your athletic ability. What are some specific examples you can give?

ROSE: Just my mid-range game. How many people shoot from midrange in the NBA these days? That's an effective shot for me. A lot of people give it to me. I look at a player like Kobe: He was able to adapt over twenty years to every style of the NBA, and that takes a lot of hard work and seeing what you need to work on. Right now, it's shooting. In the NBA today, if you can't shoot there's no point in you even being on the floor. So this summer [for me] it's a ton of shots, getting up repetitions. And conditioning, of course -- you look at Cleveland and Golden State, the way they push the ball and play an uptempo-type game, you've got to be conditioned. And it's simple stuff, the fundamentals of the game -- footwork, dribbling, going back to the basics and really just sharpening everything so that when I'm on the floor I'm not thinking about it. I'm getting to my moves and getting to my spots without having to do a lot of dribbling. You look at Kobe, he's getting to his spots with purpose. Get to the spots with purpose, putting the defense always on its heels.

Does Rose know the meaning of effective? Also, why would defenses give you a shot that you are good at. That's not what defense is.

Its also not a video game if guys are taking away his mid range game then he's going to the basket. Can't stop both without a cheat code

Why would defense give you a shot you are good at? It happens all the time with elite players. But fans who used to be roll players wouldnt understand.

Im 43 and people still back off of me because 1 step and im at the rim. But what they dont know is im a good shooter. When you are good at both, the degense can only take away one of them. Unless u are tall enough to contest with lateral quickness to defend the drive. This is why i like ndour.

Maybe you are a good shooter but then again Rose thinks he is a good mid range shooter maybe you are just like Rose. Do/Did you track your shots?

The point with Rose is he has all this information readily available to him that says he is a poor shooter but yet he thinks he is a good shooter.