fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

You already cherry pick to suit your own agenda just like most people/posters do because they do not want to take the time to go in to detail about every argument especially when they have already went in detail in other threads. People talk about Lopez value but what is the precedence for players like Rose? What did other injury plague players who looked awful while they were on the net when they were traded?

I like Lopez but I was not oppose to him being traded. I would even been okay with trading for Rose but giving up a player who has performed like a starter for a player who has played like a D-leaguer is still bad. Can you argue that the Rose trade got you Noah and Lee? Sure but you can also argue that any trade of Lopez would have netted you those pieces.

Physically Rose is probably the 3rd most athletic PG behind Westbrook and Wall. The problem is he doesn't play defense or pass like either of those guys. He also doesn't finish at the rim like either of those guys. Rose has been one of the purest forms of eye test player recently.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

Someone made a great point that Calderon basically avoided statistical interactions like the plague and that's why his assist/turnover rate is so good. He'd never make a play, just make the easiest pass possible. He would only shoot when he was wide open, usually created by the movement of other players.

DRose, on the other hand, actually improves the looks other players on the floor get. He puts the defense on its heels and makes them react and change their game plan. He gets his teammates better shots. He makes plays. He is a point guard.

And again, the very obvious caveat that DRose will be playing with a different group of players in NY and is a potentially much better fit with this group.

I guess we'll see if Jimmy Butler benefits this season from playing alongside Jose and Rolo. I don't know if advanced metrics will back this up, but Rondo, Wade, Butler, looks like a hot mess on paper to me.

It's about how guys play together. KP and Melo will benefit greatly from playing with DRose. They received little to no benefit playing with Calderon, who never created open looks for either guy and whose only real value was that you couldn't leave him wide open for three, so he spaced the floor a tiny bit.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

So I do think the team will be improved a little from last year.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

I would agree with this. Now, if Rose plays the way he did in the 2nd half of last year, I'm not sure if we would be better, worse, or the same as we were with Jose. I don't think it would be a huge difference. If Noah plays the same as last year, that's a downgrade from Lopez at C. For the trade to work, they'd have to both have bounce back years.
Other significant changes from last year: Melo is a year older, which projects for a likely decline
Lee is an upgrade over Afflalo
KP will be a 2nd year player and that projects for a probable significant improvement
The other role players may help a little

So I do think the team will be improved a little from last year.

I think that changing to a system that calls for many more efficient shots as opposed to the system that we ran last year that was slow and mid rangey will help as well. JH over Fisher and Rambis is a huge upgrade as well.

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

Someone made a great point that Calderon basically avoided statistical interactions like the plague and that's why his assist/turnover rate is so good. He'd never make a play, just make the easiest pass possible. He would only shoot when he was wide open, usually created by the movement of other players.

DRose, on the other hand, actually improves the looks other players on the floor get. He puts the defense on its heels and makes them react and change their game plan. He gets his teammates better shots. He makes plays. He is a point guard.

And again, the very obvious caveat that DRose will be playing with a different group of players in NY and is a potentially much better fit with this group.

I guess we'll see if Jimmy Butler benefits this season from playing alongside Jose and Rolo. I don't know if advanced metrics will back this up, but Rondo, Wade, Butler, looks like a hot mess on paper to me.

It's about how guys play together. KP and Melo will benefit greatly from playing with DRose. They received little to no benefit playing with Calderon, who never created open looks for either guy and whose only real value was that you couldn't leave him wide open for three, so he spaced the floor a tiny bit.

I have no problem with a player sticking within his limits. Tyson Chandler had a limited offensive game too but I didn't want him to start shooting from 10 or 16 feet out. Maybe he could do it and could hit like 35% but I don't want players taking low percentage shots unless the shot clock is expiring.

True but I'd take a 37% 3or shooter who takes 6 or 7 thread over a 41% 3pt shooter. Jose wouldn't take open shots at times which hurts the flow of an offense.

A pg needs a higher usg than a pnr big(Tyson). Calderon was playing like prigs

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

mreinman wrote:good article though not enough about the down side and inefficiency potential.

Still really good data and solid research.

Melo is a great great 3 point shooter when assisted and open. This is what MDA wanted from him. Melo also led the league in long 2's ... bleh! I hope JH can make them smarter.

Either way, it certainly sounds like Melo still has a big say in personnel decisions though wish to believe that he does not.

From the article it sounds like KP may benefit even more than melo if Rose can create for him off the PnR.

It is amazing how we both can read the same article and come away with 2 different opinions. Jackson had his exit interviews with every player. Melo said he thought the team needed a pt guard. Duh! a 5 yr old watching the Knicks knew that. Where does it say Melo had ANYTHING to do with who we got??? Where does it say Melo wanted so and so or Melo gave a list of players to go after??? When someone doesn't like a player they tend to read into the negativity of the situation more than is realistic or warranted.

Phil went to Melo and asked him if "we" were moving fast enough for him meaning no playoffs for 3 years. Some hear that and think Phil is catering to Melo. Others understand that is simply good management. Like it or not Melo is very important to what the Knicks are doing for the next couple years. He has taken the franchise rookie under his wing, became a more team focused player, organized off site team building workouts and remains the team's biggest producer.

For anyone who has every managed any kind of team you know that happy employees are better employees. Melo had earned the right to offer his input, anything else would be stupid on Phil's part. Now Phil still has to do whats best for the team and there is a difference between valuing a player's input and catering to them.

Also go look at the best years Melo has had in his career and what do you see? His most eff% shooting year he played next to Iverson and Melo had his best year shooting the ball playing next to a guy that took more shots than he did. The other time was with Billups when Melo played in the WCF.

This all just makes great basketball sense... but if you want to harp on stats and have buyer's lament fine. If I look at Lopez's all important WS/48 I see a player who is clearly trending down. This is clearly an indication that Lopez doesn't fit in today's modern NBA, is becoming less effective year after year and the Knicks were smart to trade now while he has value.

That's an interesting observation but if you go this route don't you have to look at the WS/48 of the players you received in the trade? If you do then how could you say you capitalized on his value by bringing in a player whose WS/48 have been -.036, .038,.009?

why should I do that when I can cherry pick to suit my own agendas? Maybe that WAS how we capitalized on his current value and we were a year or so away from waiving him or just dumping him for a late pick like Thad Young was. See how that works? You can focus on and cherry pick any one point.

Remember I did not like the Rose trade, but I didn't condemn it on the grounds that I would wait to see the other moves. Based on that I am fully behind this move. We needed another scorer and we desperately needed impact play from the backcourt. If you look at the FA guys that might have moved the needle the contracts are just stupid. As it turns out the Knick did very very well in FA in terms of value across the board, and that is all setup by the Rose trade.

Its not as simple as Rose vs. the perceived value of Jose/Grant/Lopez. It was the FA landscape, the Knick's needs and how Phil can build this team for Jeff.

We simply could NOT go into the season with Grant, Jose and LG as our guards for this coach. How well Rose plays remains to be seen, but if you watched him last year, bad stats aside you see he can do about 100 things than Jose can not. That being said you have guys here looking at WS stats and saying that Jose is a better player than Rose, which is pretty silly to anyone that has watched the game of basketball.

calderon was an awful player ... nobody is arguing. Just happens that Rose was even worse. You keep spinning this that people though calderon was good or even decent but he was not. He was terrible, just less terrible because he hurt his team less.

Not spinning it at all. Is Calderon a better player than Jose? Its a not a hard question. Did the Knick upgrade PG by replacing Calderon with Rose? (in your opinion)

Want to stop spinning? Answer those yes/no questions.

if they got the same rose that played last year (same output) then he is certainly worse. You can't get worse than rose played and you can't hurt a team worse than he did. AND CALDERON SUHUUUUCKS!

Now, do you want to compare last years jose to an improved Rose (which has not happened yet)? Go ahead and project.

2014-2015 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 5/14 vsCLE L 73-94	 36	7-16	 .438	0-3	 .000	0-0	 .000	2	6	0	0	1	2	14
Tue 5/12 @ CLE L 101-106 43	7-24	 .292	0-4	 .000	2-3	 .667	9	7	1	3	1	1	16
Sun 5/10 vsCLE L 84-86	 41	11-23	 .478	2-5	 .400	7-7	1.000	2	4	0	0	0	2	31
Fri 5/8	 vsCLE W 99-96	 39	10-26	 .385	1-3	 .333	9-10	 .900	7	7	1	1	2	3	30
Wed 5/6	 @ CLE L 91-106	 37	6-20	 .300	2-5	 .400	0-0	 .000	7	10	1	0	4	2	14
Mon 5/4	 @ CLE W 99-92   39	11-26	 .423	3-6	 .500	0-0	 .000	5	5	0	1	3	2	25
Conference Semifinals	 39.2	8.7-22.5 .385	1.3-4.3	 .308	3.0-3.3	 .900	5.3	6.5	0.5	0.8	1.8	2.0	21.7
DATE	 OPP   SCORE     MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Thu 4/30 @ MIL W 120-66	 25	6-14	 .429	3-7	 .429	0-0	 .000	5	7	0	1	1	2	15
Mon 4/27 vsMIL L 88-94	 42	5-20	 .250	0-7	 .000	3-4	 .750	4	2	0	1	1	6	13
Sat 4/25 @ MIL L 90-92	 39	5-13	 .385	2-4	 .500	2-2	1.000	5	6	1	1	1	8	14
Thu 4/23 @ MIL W 113-106 48	12-23	 .522	5-9	 .556	5-6	 .833	5	8	0	3	2	3	34
Mon 4/20 vsMIL W 91-82	 38	4-14	 .286	2-6	 .333	5-5	1.000	7	9	1	1	3	3	15
Sat 4/18 vsMIL W 103-91	 27	9-16	 .563	3-7	 .429	2-2	1.000	0	7	1	2	3	4	23
Conference Quarterfinals 36.5	6.8-16.7 .410	2.5-6.7	 .375	2.8-3.2	 .895	4.3	6.5	0.5	1.5	1.8	4.3	19.0
POSTSEASON STATS	 MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Averages	         37.8	7.8-19.6 .396	1.9-5.5	 .348	2.9-3.3	 .897	4.8	6.5	0.5	1.2	1.8	3.2	20.3
Totals	                 454	93-235	 .396	23-66	 .348	35-39	 .897	58	78	6	14	22	38	244

Now regarding last year, it's not hard to understand that the Orbital surgery he had negatively impacted his game. I think the kind of performance he had with very little preparation last playoffs bodes well for Rose after he actually has a full offseason of work on Conditioning and his Skills. If he could do this under such tough circumstances then it's not hard to imagine that he can be even better with the time to really prepare his body and work on his skills.