First, I am surprised. Phil did more in terms of adding pieces/talent than I thought possible. Kudos there.

However, its a ballsy move to move most of your chips in on a 23 red, and hoping to win.

Exciting? Yes. Do we have something to look for? Yes. Is the talent upgraded? I think most will agree yes.

But

Is Rose a risk free gamble? What if he plays well and we end up signing him? Don't say it won't happen.

Lee is journeyman at best. He should not be considered a marquee signing. He is a tuck in, fill a whole player. And I get that he will play a valuable role and contribute beyond his numbers, much like Lopez did. But he is 31. Signed for 4 years. Unless he is juicing, he is getting slower each year, not faster.

Noah is signed for four years at relatively big money. Sure, maybe he makes it this year, and heck, maybe he plays most of his games on his contract. But who is betting his production with whatever stats you want to measure him by (except DNPS) are going to not decline, and possibly not be much worse than his last full season? Anyone want to take that bet besides Nixluva?

I get surrounding KP with winners and veterans. But, I felt our target horizon should have been 2-5 years out, not this summer, and that building a winner takes time and we ideally needed 1 more franchise type talent to fall to us in the draft so we could have some control over that talent moving forward.

Yes, no draft picks were moved. Thank god, but that is only so far.

I hope things work out. There is talent there on paper, but some of that paper includes medical charts!

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

I can't speak for them, but some fans can't live with "uncertainty". Either tank and move toward high draft pick or sign Durant and contend now!!

17 games, to 32 games, to I would guess 45-50 games. I suppose its all "TBD" but with no draft pick, Im not sure we could have done much better.
Even Durant foot was a concern at one point and many fear he'd go the route of Ming. Curry had chronic ankle problems, CP3 bad knee, westbrook has had three surgeries on one knee......
Yes, Rose injury is a concern but he was young and took his time to come back. This is not microfracture and a Amare type condition. And, if he breaks, we let him walk.
Rose is not a negative, he is an opportunity. Noah had shoulder problems, not legs.

We don't know the upside to this team, but ECF's are not out of the question. What is KP's upside? He might have a sophomore slump too. We don't know.
That's what makes it fun.

B+ because we went from a 32 win team to one that has potential. "Simpatico" cannot be measured until hindsight is applied.

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

I can't speak for them, but some fans can't live with "uncertainty". Either tank and move toward high draft pick or sign Durant and contend now!!

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

I can't speak for them, but some fans can't live with "uncertainty". Either tank and move toward high draft pick or sign Durant and contend now!!

i agree a lot of online fans sway to extremes. i think the best you can hope from a gm is to have a plan - try to put together a cohesive unit and build a franchise that can play well now and a franchise that is set up to play well in the future.

you can safely consider lee and melo as fits in the now portion. noah also fits the now portion only if he is healthy.

the rose move doesn't answer either now or future healthy or not. even if he has an ok season, it would be a very dumb move to re-sign him based on past injuries. and past injuries is why noah doesn't apply to future as well. what differentiates their injuries from guys like durant or westbrook is that those players actually came back and put up just as good numbers as before their injuries. these two have yet to do that.

future is porzingis and a bunch of unknowns (young guys you signed and draft picks you haven't made yet).

whatever plan phil tried to execute the past two years got brushed aside quickly this offseason.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:b+ given the circumstances:

1. no draft picks
2. We did not trade a future no. 1 pick!!
3. Phil is still here, Isiah is still with the Liberty.

Right there it a pretty good off season!!

4. Rose is a starphuch that cost us very little and preserves cap space/options to resign him.
5. No Rose, no Noah. IN fact, Noah if healthy could bring a pretty good grab as an asset if we trade him.
This providing things went south. Injury bug hit, we could tank.
6. MIndas like dunk!!! WE have our new mascot, high energy "WINGO" type player!!!!
7. Jennings. Year of redemption and prove himself worthy of a good contract. Great back up if healthy!!
8. Willy, and Plum. We got rookies!!!
9. Best supporting cast for melo since he is here. Melo should be happy. A happy melo is winning Melo??
10.We have a 20 year old Baby Unicorn that projects unlimited potential. If Nalod says in three-5 years KP could be the best player on the planet, or at least top 5, you don't go full homer label on me. He could be. No guarantee, just potential.
11. New coach, new enthusiasm.
12. Abby Hornacek.

isn't that the opposite definition of starphuck?

My thoughts exactly. It is the polar opposite of starphuck.

Gudris wrote:A: I'm excited, but can we beat Cavs and Warriors ?

During the regular season. Sure.

In a 7 game series?

Very, very likely not.

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:b+ given the circumstances:

1. no draft picks
2. We did not trade a future no. 1 pick!!
3. Phil is still here, Isiah is still with the Liberty.

Right there it a pretty good off season!!

4. Rose is a starphuch that cost us very little and preserves cap space/options to resign him.
5. No Rose, no Noah. IN fact, Noah if healthy could bring a pretty good grab as an asset if we trade him.
This providing things went south. Injury bug hit, we could tank.
6. MIndas like dunk!!! WE have our new mascot, high energy "WINGO" type player!!!!
7. Jennings. Year of redemption and prove himself worthy of a good contract. Great back up if healthy!!
8. Willy, and Plum. We got rookies!!!
9. Best supporting cast for melo since he is here. Melo should be happy. A happy melo is winning Melo??
10.We have a 20 year old Baby Unicorn that projects unlimited potential. If Nalod says in three-5 years KP could be the best player on the planet, or at least top 5, you don't go full homer label on me. He could be. No guarantee, just potential.
11. New coach, new enthusiasm.
12. Abby Hornacek.

isn't that the opposite definition of starphuck?

My thoughts exactly. It is the polar opposite of starphuck.

I think it's well established by now that the term is extremely fluid and can be used as a derogatory term for any acquisition of a big name player that has potential downside, including (but not limited to) any of the following:

Coming off down year - starphuck

Over 30 - starphuck

Injury concerns - starphuck

Gave up a 1st round pick - starphuck

And/or gave up any decent player - starphuck

Just don't like the player as much as his reputation warrants - starphuck

It's a very versatile term.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

djsunyc wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

I can't speak for them, but some fans can't live with "uncertainty". Either tank and move toward high draft pick or sign Durant and contend now!!

i agree a lot of online fans sway to extremes. i think the best you can hope from a gm is to have a plan - try to put together a cohesive unit and build a franchise that can play well now and a franchise that is set up to play well in the future.

you can safely consider lee and melo as fits in the now portion. noah also fits the now portion only if he is healthy.

the rose move doesn't answer either now or future healthy or not. even if he has an ok season, it would be a very dumb move to re-sign him based on past injuries. and past injuries is why noah doesn't apply to future as well. what differentiates their injuries from guys like durant or westbrook is that those players actually came back and put up just as good numbers as before their injuries. these two have yet to do that.

future is porzingis and a bunch of unknowns (young guys you signed and draft picks you haven't made yet).

whatever plan phil tried to execute the past two years got brushed aside quickly this offseason.

Rose is a low risk gamble that he can have a resurgence. Rose being successful will still be a good problem to have. Those who suggest that it's a problem if Rose has a good season are really reaching. The key will be to work to have younger and healthier guards behind Rose and Jennings. Neither guard is locked into anything long term. The Knicks will still be able to reload if necessary next summer.

The Knicks aren't expecting Rose or Noah to put up MVP or DPOY level seasons. Neither will have to do that in order to help this team win!!! The Spurs got to the Finals with a less than spectacular Tim Duncan, so you can still benefit from players experience even if they aren't quite the peak level versions of themselves. Rose can still beat his man regularly and Noah can still rebound, pass and defend. Those things will help this team tremendously!!!

Of course KP is the future. That's not really a big news flash. For his sake tho, it's a good thing for him to practice and play with a higher caliber of player and possibly get post season experience as he continues to develop.

Phil's PLAN the last few years have been the same. Try to put a winning roster together for now and also have a future component to the roster as well. Every summer he's added VETS to the team. Aside from the brief period late last season with Grant starting and going into the summer with Grant and Wroten he's spent the majority of the time with VETS on the roster. So technically the PLAN hasn't changed. We've had a VET starting lineup the entire time Phil has been here.

the team is apparently and once again in win-now mode, according to its president. how many wins nixluva?

This team pretty much has always been in Win Now Mode but lacked the talent to actually win. As I said every single year Phil has brought in Vets in an attempt to help the team win now. The only glimpse of a longer term approach was late last year and into the beginning of the offseason. So technically he's never abandoned his win now approach.

I've already posted MANY times what I felt this team could do in terms of wins. IMO this team is possibly better than the team that won 54 games. That team also had games missed due to injury and yet it still won 54 games and at least made it to the 2nd rd. I think the East was not nearly as tough as it is now so that will be a limiting factor for this team. There will be games missed like that 54 win team and that will impact wins as well. So anywhere from 48 to 54 wins seems reasonable to me.

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

The idea is to have Rose playing at an improved level. Sure we can simply assume Rose can't play better, but that wasn't even true within last season. He started at one level and actually improved during the season. What's to say that Rose won't get better after a full offseason of work on his conditioning and skills?

This team was in dire need of a penetrating PG and Rose is still one of the top guards in Drives to the basket at 9 a game and 51%. With the presence of Melo, KP and Lee to spread the floor, Rose should be very efficient next season. His drives should loosen up the defense for our shooters.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

With the way things played out in Free Agency, I think it was a worthwhile risk to take on Rose. There really weren't a lot of great options in terms of potential upside. He turned RoLo a solid C but someone that really didn't make the difference between a winning record and losing record, into Rose who at least has the potential to make the team better by creating more balance to the functionality of the team. This year the floor is much more balanced.

The idea is to have Rose playing at an improved level. Sure we can simply assume Rose can't play better, but that wasn't even true within last season. He started at one level and actually improved during the season. What's to say that Rose won't get better after a full offseason of work on his conditioning and skills?

This team was in dire need of a penetrating PG and Rose is still one of the top guards in Drives to the basket at 9 a game and 51%. With the presence of Melo, KP and Lee to spread the floor, Rose should be very efficient next season. His drives should loosen up the defense for our shooters.

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?

for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.

Rose begat Noah, Noah begat CLee.

Our off-season would be Brandon Jennings anddddd... what else?

you don't know that rose begat noah. noah and jackson were on each other's radar long before rose was acquired. it's common knowledge. a more likely scenario is jackson saw a one year audition/reclamation product... character issues and style of play notwithstanding.