crzymdups wrote:I honestly think there is some validity to this. Before Phil's road trip, signs were pointing to Rambis, many within the Knicks organization believed it would be Rambis. Then Melo puts word out he doesn't want Rambis and Phil goes on his trip and comes back and in short order hires Hornacek and trades for DRose - a point guard centric head coach who has familiarity with the Triangle but doesn't run it and trades for a one time all-star pg after saying he wouldn't overpay for one.

I think Phil may have gotten some pressure from Melo and Mills. I said this at the time and people freaked right the hell out. I'm not sure why it is so controversial. Phil even admitted in the most recent press conference he asked Melo "are we moving fast enough for you?" To me that implies the Rambis and Rolo and Grant centered team was not moving fast enough for Melo.

Obviously we will never know the full story. But I think it is fair for anyone to note that Phil had a change in approach in his coaching search and in the sense of making more "win now" type trades and free agent moves with Rose and Noah.

Pressure from Melo and Mills who are UNDER Phil is not the right verbiage. Phil can really only get pressure from Dolan. If Melo and Mills made appeals to Phil and he decided to listen then what's wrong with that? The inference made by the OP is that Phil was MADE to do all of this as opposed to him coming to his own conclusion with the input from Melo, Mills or whoever.

Phil was out of the city by himself for a good while and from what i've read he wasn't really in contact with anyone like Melo. No one had heard anything from Phil and the media was writing negative stories about him. No doubt he wanted to really think about what he should do and i'm pretty sure he had gotten input from Mills and Warkentien etc. The decision to hire Hornacek seems like a Phil decision ALL THE WAY. I'm sure Mills was in favor of Blatt and others likely wanted Phil to choose Vogel. So how do we square the notion that he was forced to hire Hornacek???

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I honestly think there is some validity to this. Before Phil's road trip, signs were pointing to Rambis, many within the Knicks organization believed it would be Rambis. Then Melo puts word out he doesn't want Rambis and Phil goes on his trip and comes back and in short order hires Hornacek and trades for DRose - a point guard centric head coach who has familiarity with the Triangle but doesn't run it and trades for a one time all-star pg after saying he wouldn't overpay for one.

I think Phil may have gotten some pressure from Melo and Mills. I said this at the time and people freaked right the hell out. I'm not sure why it is so controversial. Phil even admitted in the most recent press conference he asked Melo "are we moving fast enough for you?" To me that implies the Rambis and Rolo and Grant centered team was not moving fast enough for Melo.

Obviously we will never know the full story. But I think it is fair for anyone to note that Phil had a change in approach in his coaching search and in the sense of making more "win now" type trades and free agent moves with Rose and Noah.

Pressure from Melo and Mills who are UNDER Phil is not the right verbiage. Phil can really only get pressure from Dolan. If Melo and Mills made appeals to Phil and he decided to listen then what's wrong with that? The inference made by the OP is that Phil was MADE to do all of this as opposed to him coming to his own conclusion with the input from Melo, Mills or whoever.

Phil was out of the city by himself for a good while and from what i've read he wasn't really in contact with anyone like Melo. No one had heard anything from Phil and the media was writing negative stories about him. No doubt he wanted to really think about what he should do and i'm pretty sure he had gotten input from Mills and Warkentien etc. The decision to hire Hornacek seems like a Phil decision ALL THE WAY. I'm sure Mills was in favor of Blatt and others likely wanted Phil to choose Vogel. So how do we square the notion that he was forced to hire Hornacek???

How bout with the numerous statements by him that were just cited ??? Reconcile that .He wanted Rambis and his triangle. He was told NO and pressured into interviewing others. It must have been the peyote he ingested while in the hot tub before meditating that suddenly changed his tune Comical that he had never met Hornachek before but bam it was his quick choice and then we trade for a pg who is somewhat the antithesis to his preachings of not needing a high priced pg especially one who is shorter, not a good shooter and ball concentric. Thank Gawd for Gaines push for KP, than k gawd for Mills doing cap figures , thank gawd for Isiah whispering about Horny to Doln and thank gawd to Jeanette for keeping him semi conscious for awhile

Liked the trajectory this team was on before the sudden change, but as someone said, as long as it works who cares?

meloanyk wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I honestly think there is some validity to this. Before Phil's road trip, signs were pointing to Rambis, many within the Knicks organization believed it would be Rambis. Then Melo puts word out he doesn't want Rambis and Phil goes on his trip and comes back and in short order hires Hornacek and trades for DRose - a point guard centric head coach who has familiarity with the Triangle but doesn't run it and trades for a one time all-star pg after saying he wouldn't overpay for one.

I think Phil may have gotten some pressure from Melo and Mills. I said this at the time and people freaked right the hell out. I'm not sure why it is so controversial. Phil even admitted in the most recent press conference he asked Melo "are we moving fast enough for you?" To me that implies the Rambis and Rolo and Grant centered team was not moving fast enough for Melo.

Obviously we will never know the full story. But I think it is fair for anyone to note that Phil had a change in approach in his coaching search and in the sense of making more "win now" type trades and free agent moves with Rose and Noah.

why does change in approach have to mean someone else told him what to do? Phil is a smart guy and knew this 3rd year there was much more pressure to show results. To success you need everyone on board and Melo is obviously a key to that. Any good manager keeps their best producer happy. I fail to see the big change in approach, rather just opportunity. We know KP is a major player now. We know Melo still has something left. We had a few assets. We still added young player and signed Willy to a 4 year deal. We added underdrafted guys, EU guys, role players that fit... I think the timing of this all makes sense. Its not just MElo. You can build around KP/Melo, but we didnt know what we had last year. Now its a clearer picture.

I dont dig the "Phil was told to get is ass in gear" chatter. Thats farts in the wind

Do you think if Jackson had been allowed to make Rambis the coach, the new approach would have been undertaken ???. Think not-- and our approach changed immediately with the Horny sign which set off the chain of events. That is the point that matters but one many cant seem to grasp.

Okay, for sake of discussion let's agree with that premise. I grasp it.

Now what if the point of that?

GustavBahler wrote:Still guessing it was Dolan. I don't believe Melo and Mills would have been able to pressure Phil to do alter his plan as much as he did if Dolan had his back. Pretty sure what happened with Barnes/Fisher PO'd Dolan to no end. Throw in a losing season, no playoff revenue, and no draft picks, and its not beyond the real of possibility that Dolan told Phil that he is paying him too much money for him to be putting this kind of a product on the floor, and MSG getting embarrassed by the Fisher situation off the court.

Liked the trajectory this team was on before the sudden change, but as someone said, as long as it works who cares?

Now I do believe that Phil was impressed by Hornacek and that is why he chose him. Just listening to JH talk you can tell that he knows what he's talking about and that it would be impressive to Phil. The decision to go after Rose, Noah, Lee and Jennings all make sense after hiring Hornacek.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I honestly think there is some validity to this. Before Phil's road trip, signs were pointing to Rambis, many within the Knicks organization believed it would be Rambis. Then Melo puts word out he doesn't want Rambis and Phil goes on his trip and comes back and in short order hires Hornacek and trades for DRose - a point guard centric head coach who has familiarity with the Triangle but doesn't run it and trades for a one time all-star pg after saying he wouldn't overpay for one.

I think Phil may have gotten some pressure from Melo and Mills. I said this at the time and people freaked right the hell out. I'm not sure why it is so controversial. Phil even admitted in the most recent press conference he asked Melo "are we moving fast enough for you?" To me that implies the Rambis and Rolo and Grant centered team was not moving fast enough for Melo.

Obviously we will never know the full story. But I think it is fair for anyone to note that Phil had a change in approach in his coaching search and in the sense of making more "win now" type trades and free agent moves with Rose and Noah.

why does change in approach have to mean someone else told him what to do? Phil is a smart guy and knew this 3rd year there was much more pressure to show results. To success you need everyone on board and Melo is obviously a key to that. Any good manager keeps their best producer happy. I fail to see the big change in approach, rather just opportunity. We know KP is a major player now. We know Melo still has something left. We had a few assets. We still added young player and signed Willy to a 4 year deal. We added underdrafted guys, EU guys, role players that fit... I think the timing of this all makes sense. Its not just MElo. You can build around KP/Melo, but we didnt know what we had last year. Now its a clearer picture.

I dont dig the "Phil was told to get is ass in gear" chatter. Thats farts in the wind

Hey, bottom line, I was dismayed at the prospect of hiring Rambis. I'm glad Phil changed course. From the timeline of how things played out, it sort of seems like both Melo and Mills (and maybe Dolan (who some guys here said would be unable to communicate with Phil because he was on tour... uh text, email, cell?)) said "whoa, girl" to the idea of hiring Rambis. Notice that Mills has been FAR more visible in the process since Hornacek has been hired. Mills didn't speak at the end of season press conferences. Phil did. Hornacek gets hired and Mills is there. Hornacek's first dinner in NYC - the one the paparazzi got? - Mills was there with Phil and Hornacek. I just think something happened. You have to admit it is a change of approach by Phil, if nothing else. He said pretty emphatically at the end of April that he would hire someone he knew and likely ran the Triangle and he didn't want to get caught up in the chase for a PG. What happened? I think it is fair to read into the fact that Melo was not a fan of Rambis and sent word through his sources to Berman and Isola to print stories about it... did Phil respond to that?

You can say Phil ignored the criticisms coming his way, but Roland Lazenby, a reporter who covered Phil for 20 odd years made a comment I think is highly relevant: "Phil never pays attention to criticism, but he hates it."

FWIW, Lazenby predicted Phil was hiring Rambis in early May, too.

I think it is fair to speculate that something changed for Phil and his approach in May. Whether it was completely internal or he was aware of the very loud criticisms of his approach to that point and the idea of installing Rambis... we'll never know... but I don't think it is unfair to speculate.

Directly after that, Phil takes a job as President of the Knicks. Potentially to help make Jimmy Buss look bad? (Legendary Lakers coach Phil Jackson, five Lakers rings goes to the hated East Coast New York Knicks??) How long is Phil's commitment to the Knicks? Five years. Oh wait, there's an opt out after three years. Right around the time of Jimmy Buss's deadline.

Is this all a coincidence? Sure, yeah, maybe. Do Phil and Jeannie discuss their careers and work relationship? Or just bang and share a bowl of the good stuff and save a little extra in case Joakim Noah stops by for some life coaching?

You can say it's all made up and that Jeannie and Phil have nothing to do with one another and it is a complete coincidence that Phil had a phone conversation with Luke Walton and soon after Walton accepted the Laker's head coach job without ever getting permission to interview with the Knicks. I'm not really interested in arguing about any of this. I just find the dynamic highly interesting. Time will tell what comes of it.

It was 2014, roughly a year since their father's death. The Lakers had far more losses on the ledger than usual, and it was time to ask Jim some pointed questions—particularly on the issue of bringing in one eager, available and esteemed Phil Jackson to assist Jim and general manager Mitch Kupchak with basketball operations. If not Jackson, then perhaps someone else could help.

Thanks, but no thanks, Jim told them flatly.

He was insistent he could do the job his father had handed over to him. Jim rejected the idea that Jackson's mere presence would help the brand even after his father previously thrived among a three-headed leadership committee of himself, Jerry West and Kupchak.

Jeanie held the presidential power to install Jackson, her fiance, in any role she desired or make any changes she saw fit. She preferred to withhold that power and build consensus, if possible.

(Jeanie Buss and Phil Jackson, who moved on to take over the Knicks after the Lakers' hierarchy decided not to add him to the front office in 2014.)

Out of love for Jackson, she also didn't want to push him into a situation where he wouldn't be welcomed to accomplish anything.

So Jeanie asked Jim a simple question, considering he was adamantly opposed to outside assistance:

How can we hold you accountable?

That prompted Jim to pledge a quick turnaround. Within three years, the Lakers would be "in contention for a championship," he promised his siblings.

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Here's a comment from that Ding article that I feel is very interesting on the current state of the Knicks and Lakers and how Phil is sort of caught in between both in a way. In early 2014, the Lakers were considering bringing Phil in to help rebuild the team. Jimmy Buss said no. Jeannie didn't push it, not wanting to throw Phil into a bad situation. She says to Jimmy "how can we hold you accountable?" Jimmy says, give me three years and we will be contending for a title again.

Directly after that, Phil takes a job as President of the Knicks. Potentially to help make Jimmy Buss look bad? (Legendary Lakers coach Phil Jackson, five Lakers rings goes to the hated East Coast New York Knicks??) How long is Phil's commitment to the Knicks? Five years. Oh wait, there's an opt out after three years. Right around the time of Jimmy Buss's deadline.

Is this all a coincidence? Sure, yeah, maybe. Do Phil and Jeannie discuss their careers and work relationship? Or just bang and share a bowl of the good stuff and save a little extra in case Joakim Noah stops by for some life coaching?

You can say it's all made up and that Jeannie and Phil have nothing to do with one another and it is a complete coincidence that Phil had a phone conversation with Luke Walton and soon after Walton accepted the Laker's head coach job without ever getting permission to interview with the Knicks. I'm not really interested in arguing about any of this. I just find the dynamic highly interesting. Time will tell what comes of it.

It was 2014, roughly a year since their father's death. The Lakers had far more losses on the ledger than usual, and it was time to ask Jim some pointed questions—particularly on the issue of bringing in one eager, available and esteemed Phil Jackson to assist Jim and general manager Mitch Kupchak with basketball operations. If not Jackson, then perhaps someone else could help.

Thanks, but no thanks, Jim told them flatly.

He was insistent he could do the job his father had handed over to him. Jim rejected the idea that Jackson's mere presence would help the brand even after his father previously thrived among a three-headed leadership committee of himself, Jerry West and Kupchak.

Jeanie held the presidential power to install Jackson, her fiance, in any role she desired or make any changes she saw fit. She preferred to withhold that power and build consensus, if possible.

(Jeanie Buss and Phil Jackson, who moved on to take over the Knicks after the Lakers' hierarchy decided not to add him to the front office in 2014.)

Out of love for Jackson, she also didn't want to push him into a situation where he wouldn't be welcomed to accomplish anything.

So Jeanie asked Jim a simple question, considering he was adamantly opposed to outside assistance:

How can we hold you accountable?

That prompted Jim to pledge a quick turnaround. Within three years, the Lakers would be "in contention for a championship," he promised his siblings.

You really think he will step down? People don't walk away from power very really. If he is able to kudos to him. This will get ugly before it settles down.

Jimmy is of course always going to be an owner of the Lakers... but he doesn't have to maintain his current role in the organization as head of basketball operations. I think Jimmy Buss may be removed from that role... but it will be ugly. I just think Phil... or the threat of bringing Phil home... might be part of the eventual story.

I do think Phil is pretty committed to winning here... but the route he took this summer... does that really seem like the route someone is here long-term takes? It feels like a quick fix attempt. I don't know if it will be Phil's last season or if he is just trying to improve enough to attract Westbrook. But say this team wins 50 games and makes the 2nd round or maybe ECF if all things possible go right... next summer Phil brings in Westbrook... that's about as much as he could do here, right? No Knicks fan in the world would begrudge Phil for leaving if he brought in KP and Westbrook in 3.5 years...

I dunno. Obviously I don't know Phil's mind. But I don't think he has had his last run with the Lakers yet, I'll say that. I think he and Jeannie will be running things there in three years. Say Luke Walton is struggling and needs some help... who's he gonna want to call in?

I just think it is a very interesting dynamic.

I'd rather focus on the basketball court for this upcoming season, because I'm excited about that. But as we know - nothing is forever in the NBA.

Just cuz we didn't know Phil and Mills had a plan to go after these players doesn't mean they hadn't planned on it much earlier than we realized. They had to have figured out this use of the cap before they went into it. They had an idea of the players they'd target and how much they should pay. It worked out very well even if they lost Gallo and DWill. They still got their primary targets so this was a good job by Phil and his team. No need for any input from Dolan.

meloanyk wrote:

nixluva wrote:The plan last summer was to establish some level of growth over the 17 win season and try to make the playoffs. The FA's did help but not enough. This summer was always going to include FA's so the only real difference is that Phil hired Hornacek and went hard for NBA READY PG's as opposed to young guards like Grant and Wroten. Once he got Rose then why not go after Noah, Lee and Jennings???

Just cuz we didn't know Phil and Mills had a plan to go after these players doesn't mean they hadn't planned on it much earlier than we realized. They had to have figured out this use of the cap before they went into it. They had an idea of the players they'd target and how much they should pay. It worked out very well even if they lost Gallo and DWill. They still got their primary targets so this was a good job by Phil and his team. No need for any input from Dolan.

Again, he wanted Rambis as coach, others thankfully interceded and Horny was hired, the failing process and triangle was put off to the side and a different chain thankfully followed .

Who is the team President? Phil Jackson! He's the one who gets the blame when things fail and the credit when things go well. That's all that matters! No one MAKES Phil do anything. He could just walk away if Dolan interfered, so what you're saying carries no weight. Being open to something different isn't the safe as doing it at gunpoint.