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Signing Al Horford would've been superior
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SwishAndDish13
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7/3/2016  10:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/3/2016  10:55 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:Horford is a phenomenal player. But he was too expensive and too offense oriented. Not what the Knicks needed.

I thinks the reason why Horford would've been nice is his offense fits in rather than having another guy who needs the ball. He's just as good as Noah in terms of passing rebounding and defense but his efficient offense that he expanded out to 3 is a whole different level of player. I understand we fit in both players compares to 1 but now that superior player is on the Celtics. I'd rather the Celtics has Noah and we had Horford

I watched more Hawks games then I care to remember this year and Horford was embarrassing on the boards and defensively this yr. Perhaps he started to mail it in because he was frustrated with his role there but his level of effort and non-contributions in those categories can't be denied.

AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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7/3/2016  10:57 AM
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:Horford is a phenomenal player. But he was too expensive and too offense oriented. Not what the Knicks needed.

I thinks the reason why Horford would've been nice is his offense fits in rather than having another guy who needs the ball. He's just as good as Noah in terms of passing rebounding and defense but his efficient offense that he expanded out to 3 is a whole different level of player. I understand we fit in both players compares to 1 but now that superior player is on the Celtics. I'd rather the Celtics has Noah and we had Horford

I watched more Hawks games then I care to remember this year and Horford was embarrassing on the board and defensively this yr. Perhaps he started to mail it in because he was frustrated with his role there but his level of effort and non-contributions in those categories can't be denied.


That's interesting because he held his man to 45.9% from the field this year and his opponents shot 47.0% on the season as a whole. (Noah's opponents shot 42.7% vs. 45.9% overall.)
SwishAndDish13
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7/3/2016  11:05 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:Horford is a phenomenal player. But he was too expensive and too offense oriented. Not what the Knicks needed.

I thinks the reason why Horford would've been nice is his offense fits in rather than having another guy who needs the ball. He's just as good as Noah in terms of passing rebounding and defense but his efficient offense that he expanded out to 3 is a whole different level of player. I understand we fit in both players compares to 1 but now that superior player is on the Celtics. I'd rather the Celtics has Noah and we had Horford

I watched more Hawks games then I care to remember this year and Horford was embarrassing on the board and defensively this yr. Perhaps he started to mail it in because he was frustrated with his role there but his level of effort and non-contributions in those categories can't be denied.


That's interesting because he held his man to 45.9% from the field this year and his opponents shot 47.0% on the season as a whole. (Noah's opponents shot 42.7% vs. 45.9% overall.)

I don't look at the advanced defensive stats but I do watch games. Do they factor in if my guy scores on a dump off when I come over to help? I'm genuinely asking the question.

We needed more of an interior force and rebounder. I didn't see much of either from Horford this yr. I saw multiple games where he had 5 rebounds in 40 minutes. Just minimal effort. No thanks when we woulda had to use all our cap space on him. I'm sure people woulda lost their minds if we did that.

smackeddog
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7/3/2016  11:07 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:Horford is a phenomenal player. But he was too expensive and too offense oriented. Not what the Knicks needed.

I thinks the reason why Horford would've been nice is his offense fits in rather than having another guy who needs the ball. He's just as good as Noah in terms of passing rebounding and defense but his efficient offense that he expanded out to 3 is a whole different level of player. I understand we fit in both players compares to 1 but now that superior player is on the Celtics. I'd rather the Celtics has Noah and we had Horford

I watched more Hawks games then I care to remember this year and Horford was embarrassing on the board and defensively this yr. Perhaps he started to mail it in because he was frustrated with his role there but his level of effort and non-contributions in those categories can't be denied.


That's interesting because he held his man to 45.9% from the field this year and his opponents shot 47.0% on the season as a whole. (Noah's opponents shot 42.7% vs. 45.9% overall.)

A fair few Hawks fans have said he looked demotivated- his dad even said he was due to the lack of fan interest. I do think once you start dogging it, it's hard to return to full effort.

SwishAndDish13
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7/3/2016  11:10 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:Horford is a phenomenal player. But he was too expensive and too offense oriented. Not what the Knicks needed.

I thinks the reason why Horford would've been nice is his offense fits in rather than having another guy who needs the ball. He's just as good as Noah in terms of passing rebounding and defense but his efficient offense that he expanded out to 3 is a whole different level of player. I understand we fit in both players compares to 1 but now that superior player is on the Celtics. I'd rather the Celtics has Noah and we had Horford

I watched more Hawks games then I care to remember this year and Horford was embarrassing on the board and defensively this yr. Perhaps he started to mail it in because he was frustrated with his role there but his level of effort and non-contributions in those categories can't be denied.


That's interesting because he held his man to 45.9% from the field this year and his opponents shot 47.0% on the season as a whole. (Noah's opponents shot 42.7% vs. 45.9% overall.)

A fair few Hawks fans have said he looked demotivated- his dad even said he was due to the lack of fan interest. I do think once you start dogging it, it's hard to return to full effort.

Thanks for adding that. I was unaware his father said that. I am glad that him own family noticed this as well.

dwiley20
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7/3/2016  11:16 AM
you sleep if you think Horford has been a better player
martin
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7/3/2016  11:19 AM
dwiley20 wrote:you sleep if you think Horford has been a better player

or if you go after OJ Mayo in free agency

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Bonn1997
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7/3/2016  11:28 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/3/2016  11:28 AM
dwiley20 wrote:you sleep if you think Horford has been a better player

Better at what point in time? Through 2013-14 I agree but Noah has watched Horford play in the last 2 all-star games.

nixluva
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7/3/2016  11:29 AM
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:Horford is a phenomenal player. But he was too expensive and too offense oriented. Not what the Knicks needed.

I thinks the reason why Horford would've been nice is his offense fits in rather than having another guy who needs the ball. He's just as good as Noah in terms of passing rebounding and defense but his efficient offense that he expanded out to 3 is a whole different level of player. I understand we fit in both players compares to 1 but now that superior player is on the Celtics. I'd rather the Celtics has Noah and we had Horford

I watched more Hawks games then I care to remember this year and Horford was embarrassing on the board and defensively this yr. Perhaps he started to mail it in because he was frustrated with his role there but his level of effort and non-contributions in those categories can't be denied.


That's interesting because he held his man to 45.9% from the field this year and his opponents shot 47.0% on the season as a whole. (Noah's opponents shot 42.7% vs. 45.9% overall.)

I don't look at the advanced defensive stats but I do watch games. Do they factor in if my guy scores on a dump off when I come over to help? I'm genuinely asking the question.

We needed more of an interior force and rebounder. I didn't see much of either from Horford this yr. I saw multiple games where he had 5 rebounds in 40 minutes. Just minimal effort. No thanks when we woulda had to use all our cap space on him. I'm sure people woulda lost their minds if we did that.

Exactly. When people talk about Starph****** why would it not be the case if they went all in on Horford? That wouldn't have addressed enough of the team's issues for the cost. Seems to me that Phil made the best moves he could under the circumstances. He knew he had a ton of holes and limited cap to fill them. How could he justify blowing most of it on Horford???

Nalod
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7/3/2016  11:32 AM
Horford has had his share of health problems in the past as well.
A front line of KP, Noah and Melo is more balanced. Also, I don't want my center out shooting three shots, we have a 7'3 baby unicorn to do that.

Any stats that included last year is awful for Noah. Even that, two completely different types of ball players. Noah's passing and defense is far superior to Horford.

Last year didn't Horford have Splitter with him? Millsap, a very very good power forward?
Sorry Briggs, this is more rear view mirror lamenting about stuff That I doubt was heavy in the knick wheelhouse thought process. Tito's son is a very good player and an excellent big power forward. Perhaps it was time for a change or he didn't want to deal with Dwights crap. Boston finally got a free agent to play with.

Yes, briggs, Boston and Toronto are ahead of us, and it was that way too. My guess is one or the other really is not. We are not championship caliber, but top 6 in the east. Thats on paper. Paper don't get injured, but other teams do get hurt as well.

For my money, I'll take Noah to COMPLIMENT the baby unicorn than Tito's son.

nixluva
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7/3/2016  11:33 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
dwiley20 wrote:you sleep if you think Horford has been a better player

Better at what point in time? Through 2013-14 I agree but Noah has watched Horford play in the last 2 all-star games.


You just gonna ignore the knee and shoulder surgery? Sure an injured Noah wasn't as good. No different than an injured Horford would not be as good. This season will be a much better reference point.
Bonn1997
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7/3/2016  11:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/3/2016  11:39 AM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
dwiley20 wrote:you sleep if you think Horford has been a better player

Better at what point in time? Through 2013-14 I agree but Noah has watched Horford play in the last 2 all-star games.


You just gonna ignore the knee and shoulder surgery? Sure an injured Noah wasn't as good. No different than an injured Horford would not be as good. This season will be a much better reference point.

Oh I don't ignore it. That's part of the problem. Injury history is a good (but not perfect) predictor of future injuries. You can't make all your decisions assuming that players will have their first healthy season in 3 or 4 years (Noah and Rose). You can wish for it to happen but you shouldn't expect it to happen. This is what I was referring to in the other thread where I said you need to make decisions where the probabilities (not just possibilities) are in your favor.
Andrew
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7/3/2016  11:38 AM
Does hortford guard 5s?
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yellowboy90
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7/3/2016  11:44 AM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
dwiley20 wrote:you sleep if you think Horford has been a better player

Better at what point in time? Through 2013-14 I agree but Noah has watched Horford play in the last 2 all-star games.


You just gonna ignore the knee and shoulder surgery? Sure an injured Noah wasn't as good. No different than an injured Horford would not be as good. This season will be a much better reference point.

Horford actually had shoulder injuries and still came back playing great so I don't think that is a good example. Also, you continue to ignore the possibility that Noah may never be the same. I think it is possible that he can bounce back but I worry about the plantar faciitis issues more than the shoulder and knee problems.

meloshouldgo
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7/3/2016  11:45 AM
I think Horford would have been the best one on one defender against OJ Mayo
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yellowboy90
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7/3/2016  11:45 AM
Andrew wrote:Does hortford guard 5s?

yes.

nixluva
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7/3/2016  11:59 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
dwiley20 wrote:you sleep if you think Horford has been a better player

Better at what point in time? Through 2013-14 I agree but Noah has watched Horford play in the last 2 all-star games.


You just gonna ignore the knee and shoulder surgery? Sure an injured Noah wasn't as good. No different than an injured Horford would not be as good. This season will be a much better reference point.

Oh I don't ignore it. That's part of the problem. Injury history is a good (but not perfect) predictor of future injuries. You can't make all your decisions assuming that players will have their first healthy season in 3 or 4 years (Noah and Rose). You can wish for it to happen but you shouldn't expect it to happen. This is what I was referring to in the other thread where I said you need to make decisions where the probabilities (not just possibilities) are in your favor.

A lot will depend on how they are handled over the course of the season. I don't expect perfect health from Melo, Noah or Rose. There are acceptable levels of minor health issues. The medical staff will have to prescribe a great rehab and therapy regimen along with adequate rest for Rose, Noah and Melo. I have no doubt they already are working on that.

I'm not assuming issues that would prevent the Knicks from having a winning record next year. Can it happen? Sure! Are the odds increased over a totally health set of players without the injury history? Of course! That still doesn't mean that they can't have a good season and with relatively good health. This is something that can be managed as it has been over the years with other players who had similar health issues. This has been done before.

WaltLongmire
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7/3/2016  1:33 PM
smackeddog wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:To both Noah and Lee. We are well behind the Celtics and Toronto in just our division still

Who's to say Horford even wanted to come here? Knicks fans always seem to think every FA wants to come here, and all we have to do is call them.

Also if you sign Horford for the max who is our starting SG? I like him and advocated signing him, but it does raise the question of how do you fill in the rest of the team.


Yup...Had Horford even expressed an interest coming here? Nobody seems to ask this question.

He seems to be more of a stretch 4 at this point in his career...and I think we have one of those on the team already. His rebounding has also diminished significantly since his peak in 2012/13, and he was on a smallish Atlanta team with only one other decent rebounder.

I like Horford a lot as a player, and he's another solid citizen, but he was asking for more than $28M/year, which was too much for us at this point.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
dk7th
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7/3/2016  1:57 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:Horford is a phenomenal player. But he was too expensive and too offense oriented. Not what the Knicks needed.

I thinks the reason why Horford would've been nice is his offense fits in rather than having another guy who needs the ball. He's just as good as Noah in terms of passing rebounding and defense but his efficient offense that he expanded out to 3 is a whole different level of player. I understand we fit in both players compares to 1 but now that superior player is on the Celtics. I'd rather the Celtics has Noah and we had Horford

horford is a great player there is no doubt. so far as fit with rose and melo and kp... i think noah is the better fit. noah is also the better leader and will be a better mentor to kp6 than horford. when noah gets the ball he is more likely to make plays for others than horford. also, lee doesn't need the ball. horford's talents would have been a bit squandered here and i just don't see that with noah and lee.

you have to think of the intangibles.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Chandler
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7/3/2016  1:58 PM
Just for posterity sake will you say horford is 100x better than Noah so we all can have a good laugh at your expense (again)
(5)(7)
Signing Al Horford would've been superior

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