mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Easily the best player of our generation. I still cant get past the flopping. When you see his ability to man up as he did it makes the flopping even more sickening. Is that enough to say he's not the best of his generation? No... he is. Is that enough for me to dislike him as a player? It is.

how do you compare him to MJ?

Lebron player to player is better than MJ. MJ had the benefit of a franchise that was structured and had a coach he bought into in a time when Players were not quite as empowered. Lebron held cav's hostage then bolted as he became his own GM. MJ had a franchise that empowered the Triangle and Jordan, once he bought into it became a GOAT.

Pippen was a lock down defender who could guard Isiah, or Magic Johnson. Nice asset to have. Bulls enabled Phil to grow into the top winning coach of all time. THAT says a lot about the franchise.

So basically Lebrons diva empowerement might have inhibited his chip count, or, might have enhanced it. If he was on the Clippers under Sterling, he might not have any!

WInning chips is from great players, great owners, GM and coach's. ON the court, Jordan could do certain things as could Lebron. Genetically both are blessed beyond belief. They are super human and they don't injure. They play big minutes and have amazing motors. Jordan can shoot better, LeBron a better distributer, Rebounder, finisher, and small edge to Lebron defensively because he is a larger human.

Jordan has more "clutch" moments but Lebron carries teams that have no business going as far in the playoffs.
Thus, I believe Jordan had a better environment in Chicago that what lebron has had. Blame can say "Well Lebron caused some of it"!!! Yep, that's an off the court issue. Jordan was an arsehole, leadership thru autocratic method, where Lebron is your brother. That too is off the court.

"Jordan played in tougher era", True, but at 6'8 265lb's I'd say Lebron could have messed up a lot of players, absorbed hits cuz he is bigger.
"Jordan never lost a finals", no he didn't. Lebron been to 7 vs Jordans 6. True, but we talking about a team sport.

On the court, I think Lebron is a better player.
Add the off court intangibles, Jordan as member of the bulls 6-0 makes him almost impenetrable to argue against. My point is if you go there, then Bill Russells 11 rings in 13 seasons and Two NCAA titles trumps that. So if winning is the measure, then Russell.

Nalod wrote:I thought he broke his wrist on that last dunk attempt. My god if he did finish it in such fashion it would be up there with anything Jordan did.
The block, was amazing.

Better than Jordan? Pound for pound, yes. Mentally Jordan at age 27 was more mature and basically benefited from being on the same team with the same coach for as long as he did.

Lebron is "Different". GOAT takes different shapes and we all want to protect our personal favorite "GOAT". Lebron belongs on Mount rushmore with Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Jordan.

Russell has more rings than anyone. Two NCAA' chips as well. We can argues all of this forever, but to day in this generation Lebron stands as the King. They beat a 73 win team and defending champs. Thats epic.

you're only allowed four faces on a mt. rushmore of whatever. so long wilt.

1(a)jordan
1(b)russell
3 magic
4(a)bird
4(b)lebron
6 duncan
7 shaq
8 hakeem
9 abdul jabbar
10(a)chamberlain
10(b)robertson
12 bryant
13 julius erving
14 dirk
15 moses malone

I always regretted my Jordan hate because he was a knick killer and after his first retirement really did admire his career and what he did. Because of that I enjoyed the bulls more. As for LeBron and Kobe, I have seem both mature, make mistakes and move on. Lebron has impressed me in his interviews and press conferances over time.

If WIning is paramount, Bill Russell is far above anyone.

In my subjective world based on Talent, team, and effect of invidual talent Russell as part of the team is diluted a bit.

Mount Rushmore gets 5 heads because basketball has 5 men on a team.
If winning is paramount to GOAT:

1. Russell
2. Jordan
3. Lebron
5. Shaq
6. Jabbar
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9 Hakeem
10.Bird/Magic

Sorry, can't ignore Russell's ring count and NCAA achievement.

Domination/Statistical/WInning Goat:

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. Bird/Magic
7. Shaq
8. West
9. Hakeem
10 Duncan

Yes, I think Lebron is a better basketball player than Jordan. More tools.

Honerable mention for looking back on Clyde for hanging 37 pts, 19 assists in perhaps one of the best game seven performances and total class act when he was not given the MVP.
I know Reeds heroic act was amazing and meaningful, but Walt don't do that, they don't win! Perhaps we can say the same for Reeds pain tolerance and if he don't play those first minutes and freak Wilt out they don't either, but to me reed could have done that, and the lakers could have played the rest of the game and blew the knicks out. Walt did not allow that. Subjective.

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Easily the best player of our generation. I still cant get past the flopping. When you see his ability to man up as he did it makes the flopping even more sickening. Is that enough to say he's not the best of his generation? No... he is. Is that enough for me to dislike him as a player? It is.

how do you compare him to MJ?

Lebron player to player is better than MJ. MJ had the benefit of a franchise that was structured and had a coach he bought into in a time when Players were not quite as empowered. Lebron held cav's hostage then bolted as he became his own GM. MJ had a franchise that empowered the Triangle and Jordan, once he bought into it became a GOAT.

Pippen was a lock down defender who could guard Isiah, or Magic Johnson. Nice asset to have. Bulls enabled Phil to grow into the top winning coach of all time. THAT says a lot about the franchise.

So basically Lebrons diva empowerement might have inhibited his chip count, or, might have enhanced it. If he was on the Clippers under Sterling, he might not have any!

WInning chips is from great players, great owners, GM and coach's. ON the court, Jordan could do certain things as could Lebron. Genetically both are blessed beyond belief. They are super human and they don't injure. They play big minutes and have amazing motors. Jordan can shoot better, LeBron a better distributer, Rebounder, finisher, and small edge to Lebron defensively because he is a larger human.

Jordan has more "clutch" moments but Lebron carries teams that have no business going as far in the playoffs.
Thus, I believe Jordan had a better environment in Chicago that what lebron has had. Blame can say "Well Lebron caused some of it"!!! Yep, that's an off the court issue. Jordan was an arsehole, leadership thru autocratic method, where Lebron is your brother. That too is off the court.

"Jordan played in tougher era", True, but at 6'8 265lb's I'd say Lebron could have messed up a lot of players, absorbed hits cuz he is bigger.
"Jordan never lost a finals", no he didn't. Lebron been to 7 vs Jordans 6. True, but we talking about a team sport.

On the court, I think Lebron is a better player.
Add the off court intangibles, Jordan as member of the bulls 6-0 makes him almost impenetrable to argue against. My point is if you go there, then Bill Russells 11 rings in 13 seasons and Two NCAA titles trumps that. So if winning is the measure, then Russell.

The best player convo will never end because it's impossible to compare different eras of basketball. I'm not sure what Lebron can do to top MJ. Some of us will always put Lebron below these guys. And if you talk to an older crowd, they will say Russel is the best. It's a never ending debate.

One thing that isn't a debate is that Lebron *acts* like an absolute p u s s y. They way he rolled around last night at the end of the game I was like wow... Bron broke his wrist. I should have known better. It was the same type of neck injury he suffered vs. the Knicks in the playoff game when Chandler hit him with the screen. A pretend one, but as guy who played sports for 15+ years I find his flopping antics and oh my god I am hurt theatrics to be despicable.

I am honestly embarrassed by Lebron's flopping and acting and I do not respect him because of it. He is an amazing player and he succeeds with an incredible amount of pressure on him, but I just cant get past that other stuff. He is the most physically gifted athlete I have seen since Bo Jackson, but he seems better suited to be playing FIFA soccer or something where flopping is better appreciated.

Jordan was better, because he never lost a finals and was the toughest player. Based on what we see from Lebron is he capable of playing in Jordan's era? I mean other men might touch you, and we have shown that to result in cataclysmic pain for Bron.

100% agree, on both counts. The flopping and faux injury acting is garbage, way beneath MJ.

Lebron might be physically the best ever, but MJ mentally+emotionally+clutchilty was head and shoulders above Bron-baby. No competition there.