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fishmike
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6/14/2016  2:18 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Yeah, I could see it. Hope he gets a chance to see KP work out.
best passer and court vision in the NBA. I understand the downside and issues. He will turn 31 next year at the trade deadline and I think that's actually a good thing for this player (maturity). He's a guy that Melo respects. He will make things better for KP/Rolo and get them easy looks and finishes... I think he really moves the needle and the upside to him playing well here is higher than any other FA we could land sans Durant.

What is the appeal of him over a Mike Conley Jr.?

He'd be cheaper, potentially fewer health issues, and he may actually be leaving his team. I doubt Conley leaves Memphis.

With the cap exploding, should "cheaper" mean as much as it once did? What could we use those savings on that would justify picking the inferior player?

I use to like Rondo but there simply has been too much that has gone on with him to make me stake my franchise's future on his ability to perform. When you combine that with his inability to shoot, he becomes an easy pass for me. I throw the max at Conley and see if a franchise that has been cheap, matches. If they do, we need to consider holding out for CP3 in 2017.

Rondo shot 45% last year. Conley shot 42%. Both shot 36% from 3. The notion that Rondo cant shoot at all is way over blown.

The only thing I really hate about Rondo's game is his FT% is still abysmal. He would be only of the only Knicks who shoot that poorly.

But that's one season fishmike. I'm not sure the sample size is enough to say that he can now shoot the ball with any regularity. And his struggles at the free throw line only compound my suspicions. Like I said, I use to be a big fan of Rondo's but the Kings are his 2nd go-round with a team that was filled with drama and resulted in a .500 or worse record despite having talent on his roster. If I brought him in, I wouldn't consider it a building block....just a placeholder for someone else.

If you look at Rondo's 3 point shooting the #s have gone up every year over the last 7 seasons. He also shoots 45% from the corner, so when he's needed to spread the floor there is spot he is VERY effective.

I don't consider him a building block either. Until proven otherwise Grant is that player and I am still very high on him. However Rondo immediately moves the needle and if you simply replace Jose with Rondo in the starting line up we are playoff team. That is my goal. I want to build up the youth part of this roster over the next few seasons, but I want to make the playoffs while we do it. There is no reason with Lopez/Melo/KP this shouldn't be a playoff team. I want our young guys in the playoffs every year.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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mreinman
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6/14/2016  2:20 PM
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Yeah, I could see it. Hope he gets a chance to see KP work out.
best passer and court vision in the NBA. I understand the downside and issues. He will turn 31 next year at the trade deadline and I think that's actually a good thing for this player (maturity). He's a guy that Melo respects. He will make things better for KP/Rolo and get them easy looks and finishes... I think he really moves the needle and the upside to him playing well here is higher than any other FA we could land sans Durant.

What is the appeal of him over a Mike Conley Jr.?

He'd be cheaper, potentially fewer health issues, and he may actually be leaving his team. I doubt Conley leaves Memphis.

With the cap exploding, should "cheaper" mean as much as it once did? What could we use those savings on that would justify picking the inferior player?

I use to like Rondo but there simply has been too much that has gone on with him to make me stake my franchise's future on his ability to perform. When you combine that with his inability to shoot, he becomes an easy pass for me. I throw the max at Conley and see if a franchise that has been cheap, matches. If they do, we need to consider holding out for CP3 in 2017.

Rondo shot 45% last year. Conley shot 42%. Both shot 36% from 3. The notion that Rondo cant shoot at all is way over blown.

The only thing I really hate about Rondo's game is his FT% is still abysmal. He would be only of the only Knicks who shoot that poorly.

But that's one season fishmike. I'm not sure the sample size is enough to say that he can now shoot the ball with any regularity. And his struggles at the free throw line only compound my suspicions. Like I said, I use to be a big fan of Rondo's but the Kings are his 2nd go-round with a team that was filled with drama and resulted in a .500 or worse record despite having talent on his roster. If I brought him in, I wouldn't consider it a building block....just a placeholder for someone else.

If you look at Rondo's 3 point shooting the #s have gone up every year over the last 7 seasons. He also shoots 45% from the corner, so when he's needed to spread the floor there is spot he is VERY effective.

I don't consider him a building block either. Until proven otherwise Grant is that player and I am still very high on him. However Rondo immediately moves the needle and if you simply replace Jose with Rondo in the starting line up we are playoff team. That is my goal. I want to build up the youth part of this roster over the next few seasons, but I want to make the playoffs while we do it. There is no reason with Lopez/Melo/KP this shouldn't be a playoff team. I want our young guys in the playoffs every year.

he is shaq from the ft line,

how much would you pay him?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
crzymdups
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6/14/2016  2:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2016  2:31 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Yeah, I could see it. Hope he gets a chance to see KP work out.
best passer and court vision in the NBA. I understand the downside and issues. He will turn 31 next year at the trade deadline and I think that's actually a good thing for this player (maturity). He's a guy that Melo respects. He will make things better for KP/Rolo and get them easy looks and finishes... I think he really moves the needle and the upside to him playing well here is higher than any other FA we could land sans Durant.

What is the appeal of him over a Mike Conley Jr.?

He'd be cheaper, potentially fewer health issues, and he may actually be leaving his team. I doubt Conley leaves Memphis.

With the cap exploding, should "cheaper" mean as much as it once did? What could we use those savings on that would justify picking the inferior player?

I use to like Rondo but there simply has been too much that has gone on with him to make me stake my franchise's future on his ability to perform. When you combine that with his inability to shoot, he becomes an easy pass for me. I throw the max at Conley and see if a franchise that has been cheap, matches. If they do, we need to consider holding out for CP3 in 2017.

Rondo shot 45% last year. Conley shot 42%. Both shot 36% from 3. The notion that Rondo cant shoot at all is way over blown.

The only thing I really hate about Rondo's game is his FT% is still abysmal. He would be only of the only Knicks who shoot that poorly.

But that's one season fishmike. I'm not sure the sample size is enough to say that he can now shoot the ball with any regularity. And his struggles at the free throw line only compound my suspicions. Like I said, I use to be a big fan of Rondo's but the Kings are his 2nd go-round with a team that was filled with drama and resulted in a .500 or worse record despite having talent on his roster. If I brought him in, I wouldn't consider it a building block....just a placeholder for someone else.

To blame Rondo for the Kings dysfunction is insane. Do you know Rondo's season in Sacramento was the only time in six years DeMarcus Cousins won more than 29 games? First time winning 30 was with Rondo.

That team is a mess.

Also, look at Goran Dragic's numbers in JH's system in PHX. They shot way up.

The truth is that we need to get creative in FA - Conley is not leaving Memphis. CP3 is a year away and maybe a lockout between now and then. Knicks will have to take a bit of a smart gamble if they want to get a good lead guard. The established stars aren't coming. They need to be able to envision how a guy will play here in JH's system with Melo, KP, Rolo and be able to succeed. Rondo ran a read-based, motion offense in Boston with Pierce who is a lot like Melo, he ran a ton of pick and pops with KG - he could pick and pop with KP here. Pick and roll with Rolo would be good, too. We'd need another shooter at SG. But Gerald Green could be an option. Maybe Courtney Lee. Maybe Bazemore.

I think the Knicks need to take a long hard look at the realistic free agent lead guards. Rondo is the best realistic. Jennings could be good, but has injury concerns. Evan Turner could be decent, but he's a worse outside shooter than Rondo and has nowhere near the ability to impact a game that Rondo does.

¿ △ ?
LivingLegend
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6/14/2016  2:41 PM
I tend to agree with Fishmike on this topic.

I see Rondo and Knicks made for each other.

- I think you can time Rondo deal up with Melo deal and keep $$$ of deal reasonable
- I think Rondo pace he plays with fits perfectly with Melo/KP/RoLo
- I think we (the Knicks) are perfectly set-up to handle Rondo with Phil/Melo/Horny/KP combination providing a good mixture of father figure, star player he respects, open minded free-flowing coach and young star
- I think Rondo is the best and most creative passer in the world and he will spoon feed the likes of Melo/KP to all-star like #s if not anything else
- I think Rondo plays best on biggest stage and I think he'd come to NY stage at perfect time
- I think he's got 3-4 years of high level basketball left and I think he makes our top players better by getting them the ball where/when they need it
Knixkik
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6/14/2016  2:56 PM
LivingLegend wrote:I tend to agree with Fishmike on this topic.

I see Rondo and Knicks made for each other.

- I think you can time Rondo deal up with Melo deal and keep $$$ of deal reasonable
- I think Rondo pace he plays with fits perfectly with Melo/KP/RoLo
- I think we (the Knicks) are perfectly set-up to handle Rondo with Phil/Melo/Horny/KP combination providing a good mixture of father figure, star player he respects, open minded free-flowing coach and young star
- I think Rondo is the best and most creative passer in the world and he will spoon feed the likes of Melo/KP to all-star like #s if not anything else
- I think Rondo plays best on biggest stage and I think he'd come to NY stage at perfect time
- I think he's got 3-4 years of high level basketball left and I think he makes our top players better by getting them the ball where/when they need it

Completely agree with all, especially tying the length of his contract to Melo. Rondo on a 3-year deal would give a solid opportunity to see what this group can do and if things don't move in the right direction, Melo, Rondo, and Lopez all expire at the same time and you can reset around a 23 year old Porzingis at that time.
fishmike
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6/14/2016  3:09 PM
Knixkik wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:I tend to agree with Fishmike on this topic.

I see Rondo and Knicks made for each other.

- I think you can time Rondo deal up with Melo deal and keep $$$ of deal reasonable
- I think Rondo pace he plays with fits perfectly with Melo/KP/RoLo
- I think we (the Knicks) are perfectly set-up to handle Rondo with Phil/Melo/Horny/KP combination providing a good mixture of father figure, star player he respects, open minded free-flowing coach and young star
- I think Rondo is the best and most creative passer in the world and he will spoon feed the likes of Melo/KP to all-star like #s if not anything else
- I think Rondo plays best on biggest stage and I think he'd come to NY stage at perfect time
- I think he's got 3-4 years of high level basketball left and I think he makes our top players better by getting them the ball where/when they need it

Completely agree with all, especially tying the length of his contract to Melo. Rondo on a 3-year deal would give a solid opportunity to see what this group can do and if things don't move in the right direction, Melo, Rondo, and Lopez all expire at the same time and you can reset around a 23 year old Porzingis at that time.

yup and +1 on the 3 year deal. That ties his cap # up perfectly with Melo and Lopez.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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6/14/2016  3:21 PM
hmmm I am starting to come around to Rondo after reading the arguments.
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fishmike
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6/14/2016  3:25 PM
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Yeah, I could see it. Hope he gets a chance to see KP work out.
best passer and court vision in the NBA. I understand the downside and issues. He will turn 31 next year at the trade deadline and I think that's actually a good thing for this player (maturity). He's a guy that Melo respects. He will make things better for KP/Rolo and get them easy looks and finishes... I think he really moves the needle and the upside to him playing well here is higher than any other FA we could land sans Durant.

What is the appeal of him over a Mike Conley Jr.?

He'd be cheaper, potentially fewer health issues, and he may actually be leaving his team. I doubt Conley leaves Memphis.

With the cap exploding, should "cheaper" mean as much as it once did? What could we use those savings on that would justify picking the inferior player?

I use to like Rondo but there simply has been too much that has gone on with him to make me stake my franchise's future on his ability to perform. When you combine that with his inability to shoot, he becomes an easy pass for me. I throw the max at Conley and see if a franchise that has been cheap, matches. If they do, we need to consider holding out for CP3 in 2017.

Rondo shot 45% last year. Conley shot 42%. Both shot 36% from 3. The notion that Rondo cant shoot at all is way over blown.

The only thing I really hate about Rondo's game is his FT% is still abysmal. He would be only of the only Knicks who shoot that poorly.

But that's one season fishmike. I'm not sure the sample size is enough to say that he can now shoot the ball with any regularity. And his struggles at the free throw line only compound my suspicions. Like I said, I use to be a big fan of Rondo's but the Kings are his 2nd go-round with a team that was filled with drama and resulted in a .500 or worse record despite having talent on his roster. If I brought him in, I wouldn't consider it a building block....just a placeholder for someone else.

If you look at Rondo's 3 point shooting the #s have gone up every year over the last 7 seasons. He also shoots 45% from the corner, so when he's needed to spread the floor there is spot he is VERY effective.

I don't consider him a building block either. Until proven otherwise Grant is that player and I am still very high on him. However Rondo immediately moves the needle and if you simply replace Jose with Rondo in the starting line up we are playoff team. That is my goal. I want to build up the youth part of this roster over the next few seasons, but I want to make the playoffs while we do it. There is no reason with Lopez/Melo/KP this shouldn't be a playoff team. I want our young guys in the playoffs every year.

he is shaq from the ft line,

how much would you pay him?

here is the crux of the debate...Im not sure. You don't lowball him, but you don't want to throw stupid money either. The most important thing about his contract is that it ends in 3 years with Melo and Lopez. If I could accomplish that I would be willing to pay him pretty well. He made $13mm last year. Lets just assume AA opts in and so does DWill keeping things status quo. In some ways that almost helps us as we then offer him the max we can.. 3 years $60mm. That's $18mm, $20mm, $22mm.

I would rather pay Rondo more in the short term than spread it over 4 years. For me the #1 thing is having him off the books the same year Melo/Lopez expire. That represents a big year and offseason to potentially reshape the franchise. KP could be a franchise player and we would have a chance to add a pair of stars next to him

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/14/2016  3:35 PM
martin wrote:hmmm I am starting to come around to Rondo after reading the arguments.
think about it... and NBA PG who averages 12ppg, 12assists, 6 boards, 2 steals, shoots 45%, 36% from 3... I mean that is certainly close to a max player if he isn't one. The only real red flag is his name is Rajon Rondo. If he went to Sac to prove he could be a model citizen he accomplished that... or pretty damn close by NBA standards.

he's not the defender he once was, but we don't need him to be. Just push your man towards the shot blockers. He's not a bad defender at all, just not the beast he once was. He will be great late in games there with his IQ and ability to break up passes. Even his one huge hole (FT %) is helped by the fact that most of our guys are excellent at the line.

I just think he's the guy we can get, and he *can* be the guy that really takes us to the next level. I also think once he gets paid he will be more team focus and a bit less stat focused which was a knock against him by the Kings fans.

There are red flags, but I think this is a very reasonable move. There are a lot of links of Rondo->Knicks... and yes, he loves the big stage

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/14/2016  3:37 PM
Rondo has made $60mm in the NBA. Yes I would offer him that over 3 years. I think he signs.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
EnySpree
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6/14/2016  3:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2016  3:41 PM
I think mostmost importantly..... Hornacek said himself that he wanted a pg like 28-30 years old to be a stop gap leader to help get the team to where it needs to be quicker. That's Rondo all the way.

Rondos rage comes when he feels he's the only one working hard. Or if he's working hard in vein. Here he would have Melo who believe it or not wants to win and KP that's thirsty to get better. Rondo would be a good influence on two hungry lions. He'd get them the ball evey single time.

Rondo made 10 null last year, he's due a pay raise, but not max and not 18 million. He should get Rolo money for 3 years.... then we can sit on this move and look to see how the market changes. 2017 we win it all mother****er

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Chandler
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6/14/2016  3:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2016  3:40 PM
^^ that (meaning FIshmike) seems like way too much money. I get the idea that the cap is going up, but why give a guy a 50% pay raise when you can expect him to play worse. He is at the point of his career (like Melo) where he can contribute but his play will continue to decline.

Honestly, I realize we need competitive bids but I want no part of any FA who is going to come here because we were highest bidder.

ROndo is a serious talent but he's been a malcontent everyplace he has played. Before we offer him anything, I'd like to think we're convinced that he's a little wiser. Also, 3 years sounds too long to me. Would like to think we have other pg options ready and developed before 3 years is over.

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LivingLegend
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6/14/2016  3:39 PM
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:hmmm I am starting to come around to Rondo after reading the arguments.
think about it... and NBA PG who averages 12ppg, 12assists, 6 boards, 2 steals, shoots 45%, 36% from 3... I mean that is certainly close to a max player if he isn't one. The only real red flag is his name is Rajon Rondo. If he went to Sac to prove he could be a model citizen he accomplished that... or pretty damn close by NBA standards.

he's not the defender he once was, but we don't need him to be. Just push your man towards the shot blockers. He's not a bad defender at all, just not the beast he once was. He will be great late in games there with his IQ and ability to break up passes. Even his one huge hole (FT %) is helped by the fact that most of our guys are excellent at the line.

I just think he's the guy we can get, and he *can* be the guy that really takes us to the next level. I also think once he gets paid he will be more team focus and a bit less stat focused which was a knock against him by the Kings fans.

There are red flags, but I think this is a very reasonable move. There are a lot of links of Rondo->Knicks... and yes, he loves the big stage

And I think Rondo's price tag will allow us wiggle-room to sign solid SG this summer.

Not sure if it Bazemore, Fournier type of maybe someone like a C-Lee or OJ Mayo type.
mreinman
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6/14/2016  3:40 PM
fishmike wrote:Rondo has made $60mm in the NBA. Yes I would offer him that over 3 years. I think he signs.

you would have to completely ignore his ws48 to buy into this idea. I have a hard time with that and I think the market will as well.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
LivingLegend
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6/14/2016  3:40 PM
Chandler wrote:^^ that seems like way too much money. I get the idea that the cap is going up, but why give a guy a 50% pay raise when you can expect him to play worse. He is at the point of his career (like Melo) where he can contribute but his play will continue to decline.

Honestly, I realize we need competitive bids but I want no part of any FA who is going to come here because we were highest bidder.

ROndo is a serious talent but he's been a malcontent everyplace he has played. Before we offer him anything, I'd like to think we're convinced that he's a little wiser. Also, 3 years sounds too long to me. Would like to think we have other pg options ready and developed before 3 years is over.

2 + 3rd year with team option.
LivingLegend
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6/14/2016  3:43 PM
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:Rondo has made $60mm in the NBA. Yes I would offer him that over 3 years. I think he signs.

you would have to completely ignore his ws48 to buy into this idea. I have a hard time with that and I think the market will as well.

I think the 3-year $60M is too high.

I would roughly think 2-year $36M ($18M per) or 3-year $48M ($16M per) might work and yes I understand that contract #s are moving higher.

I think Rondo comes with enough ?s (age, injury, attitude) that Knicks (if smart) can get him on a solid deal (maybe better than what I've indicated above).
LivingLegend
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6/14/2016  3:45 PM
EnySpree wrote:I think mostmost importantly..... Hornacek said himself that he wanted a pg like 28-30 years old to be a stop gap leader to help get the team to where it needs to be quicker. That's Rondo all the way.

Rondos rage comes when he feels he's the only one working hard. Or if he's working hard in vein. Here he would have Melo who believe it or not wants to win and KP that's thirsty to get better. Rondo would be a good influence on two hungry lions. He'd get them the ball evey single time.

Rondo made 10 null last year, he's due a pay raise, but not max and not 18 million. He should get Rolo money for 3 years.... then we can sit on this move and look to see how the market changes. 2017 we win it all mother****er

Me personally -- when Horny mentioned 28-year old PG I thought he was pointing more towards a Conley/Jennings type less so than Rondo. Horny's comments actually made me think Rondo might be off the table - which would surprise me.
Knixkik
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6/14/2016  3:51 PM
LivingLegend wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:hmmm I am starting to come around to Rondo after reading the arguments.
think about it... and NBA PG who averages 12ppg, 12assists, 6 boards, 2 steals, shoots 45%, 36% from 3... I mean that is certainly close to a max player if he isn't one. The only real red flag is his name is Rajon Rondo. If he went to Sac to prove he could be a model citizen he accomplished that... or pretty damn close by NBA standards.

he's not the defender he once was, but we don't need him to be. Just push your man towards the shot blockers. He's not a bad defender at all, just not the beast he once was. He will be great late in games there with his IQ and ability to break up passes. Even his one huge hole (FT %) is helped by the fact that most of our guys are excellent at the line.

I just think he's the guy we can get, and he *can* be the guy that really takes us to the next level. I also think once he gets paid he will be more team focus and a bit less stat focused which was a knock against him by the Kings fans.

There are red flags, but I think this is a very reasonable move. There are a lot of links of Rondo->Knicks... and yes, he loves the big stage

And I think Rondo's price tag will allow us wiggle-room to sign solid SG this summer.

Not sure if it Bazemore, Fournier type of maybe someone like a C-Lee or OJ Mayo type.

Thats what i'm hoping. We still should have enough room for a solid SG.
fishmike
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6/14/2016  3:55 PM
LivingLegend wrote:
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:Rondo has made $60mm in the NBA. Yes I would offer him that over 3 years. I think he signs.

you would have to completely ignore his ws48 to buy into this idea. I have a hard time with that and I think the market will as well.

I think the 3-year $60M is too high.

I would roughly think 2-year $36M ($18M per) or 3-year $48M ($16M per) might work and yes I understand that contract #s are moving higher.

I think Rondo comes with enough ?s (age, injury, attitude) that Knicks (if smart) can get him on a solid deal (maybe better than what I've indicated above).

maybe, maybe not. Its a sellers market. Everyone has cash and it only takes one team. Also the $18mm is what I am putting out there as well. He made $13mm two years ago so that is the # I am working off. Last year's deal was a one-off. So I am talking the same #s you guys are. You give him the normal NBA raises and $18, $20, $22 (ish) = $60mm.

Really hard to envision a better deal on the FA market than what Rondo can bring.

Hey... I would love to sign him cheap, but you have to be realistic. This is a jacked market with waaaay more spenders than FAs.

If the message is "we want you but only for cheap" than forget it. But if the message is "we will pay you the next 3 years like a star because we think you can take Melo/KP/Lopez to the next level" than I think he's Knick and yes.. I would make that deal.

My simply plan is load us up as much as possible for a 3 year run. Be in the playoffs every year. Then after 3 years you have Melo/Lopez/Rondo expiring setting us up for an epic FA crop to build next to KP. That's my thought.

Or we could max out Crabbe and hope he's the next Allan Houston with his 10ppg and sweet stroke

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
smackeddog
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6/14/2016  4:02 PM
I have huge concerns about his attitude (he quit on his team in the playoffs and in a contract year!), but he does look good in his highlights vid- some of his passes are crazy:
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