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newyorknewyork
Posts: 30259
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Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
6/2/2016  5:15 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/2/2016  5:18 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/2/2016  5:21 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
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Member: #581
USA
6/2/2016  5:19 PM
It's interesting that here the #s do show the concerns mreinman had about KOQ's defense. He actually had the worst defensive opponent production on the team - worse than Calderon!
mreinman
Posts: 37827
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/14/2010
Member: #3189
6/2/2016  5:25 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

yeah ... but at least we are not screwed like toronto and their gloomy forecast.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
newyorknewyork
Posts: 30259
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
6/2/2016  5:46 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

I don't think that's the norm though Bonn. I don't think you can land 6 strong role players with quality win shares. Which is why star players with high win shares are so important(Not saying that Melo is a high win share dude since he hasn't been over the last few seasons).

And if you do its going to take many seasons to collect that. And role players tend to fluctuate with there win shares.Corey Joseph went from a 150 Win share 48 on the Spurs to a 082. on Toronto. . Melo cost 22.8mil. Rolo cost 12.6 mil. So you aren't getting 6 Rolo's.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/2/2016  6:25 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/2/2016  6:25 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

I don't think that's the norm though Bonn. I don't think you can land 6 strong role players with quality win shares. Which is why star players with high win shares are so important(Not saying that Melo is a high win share dude since he hasn't been over the last few seasons).

And if you do its going to take many seasons to collect that. And role players tend to fluctuate with there win shares.Corey Joseph went from a 150 Win share 48 on the Spurs to a 082. on Toronto. . Melo cost 22.8mil. Rolo cost 12.6 mil. So you aren't getting 6 Rolo's.


Win shares is pretty stable even if occasionally a player fluctuates. Rolo's contract is mediocre. It's not a disaster but it's not a deal I'd use as an example. If you're going by win shares (and it sounds like you are), you should know that the 2nd highest contract in the league for .121 is a bad deal. There are a lot of players (including non-rookies) making $2 to 4 mil a year with win shares at or near that level.
newyorknewyork
Posts: 30259
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
6/2/2016  6:58 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

I don't think that's the norm though Bonn. I don't think you can land 6 strong role players with quality win shares. Which is why star players with high win shares are so important(Not saying that Melo is a high win share dude since he hasn't been over the last few seasons).

And if you do its going to take many seasons to collect that. And role players tend to fluctuate with there win shares.Corey Joseph went from a 150 Win share 48 on the Spurs to a 082. on Toronto. . Melo cost 22.8mil. Rolo cost 12.6 mil. So you aren't getting 6 Rolo's.


Win shares is pretty stable even if occasionally a player fluctuates. Rolo's contract is mediocre. It's not a disaster but it's not a deal I'd use as an example. If you're going by win shares (and it sounds like you are), you should know that the 2nd highest contract in the league for .121 is a bad deal. There are a lot of players (including non-rookies) making $2 to 4 mil a year with win shares at or near that level.

I went by Win shares because I know that's what you would go by in choosing what FAs or players to go after. If Win shares are pretty consistent then going into the deal he posted win shares of 157. 160. 184. 172. since he joined the Knicks.

A team being able to collect a bunch of high win share players is rare which is why a team like Cavs can dominate the east with 1 player above 200. 2 players above 150. and 6 players above 100 out 9. They also had 4 #1 picks. But there are only few teams like that.

Given our situation a team like Detroit would probably be the best example of what we could maybe pull off. With 5 players out of 8 at around 100. win shares. 2 more at around 90. win shares. But none above 150. win shares. Based off the type of players they were able to acquire and how they were able to acquire them.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
mreinman
Posts: 37827
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/14/2010
Member: #3189
6/2/2016  7:07 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

I don't think that's the norm though Bonn. I don't think you can land 6 strong role players with quality win shares. Which is why star players with high win shares are so important(Not saying that Melo is a high win share dude since he hasn't been over the last few seasons).

And if you do its going to take many seasons to collect that. And role players tend to fluctuate with there win shares.Corey Joseph went from a 150 Win share 48 on the Spurs to a 082. on Toronto. . Melo cost 22.8mil. Rolo cost 12.6 mil. So you aren't getting 6 Rolo's.


Win shares is pretty stable even if occasionally a player fluctuates. Rolo's contract is mediocre. It's not a disaster but it's not a deal I'd use as an example. If you're going by win shares (and it sounds like you are), you should know that the 2nd highest contract in the league for .121 is a bad deal. There are a lot of players (including non-rookies) making $2 to 4 mil a year with win shares at or near that level.

I went by Win shares because I know that's what you would go by in choosing what FAs or players to go after. If Win shares are pretty consistent then going into the deal he posted win shares of 157. 160. 184. 172. since he joined the Knicks.

A team being able to collect a bunch of high win share players is rare which is why a team like Cavs can dominate the east with 1 player above 200. 2 players above 150. and 6 players above 100 out 9. They also had 4 #1 picks. But there are only few teams like that.

Given our situation a team like Detroit would probably be the best example of what we could maybe pull off. With 5 players out of 8 at around 100. win shares. 2 more at around 90. win shares. But none above 150. win shares. Based off the type of players they were able to acquire and how they were able to acquire them.

Tobias Harris .178 in 27 games with detroit
Baynes .158 decent enough minutes / sample size
Reggie .138 pretty good
Drummond .133 - needs to hit FT's

so here is what phil is thinking ....
newyorknewyork
Posts: 30259
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
6/2/2016  7:18 PM
mreinman wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

I don't think that's the norm though Bonn. I don't think you can land 6 strong role players with quality win shares. Which is why star players with high win shares are so important(Not saying that Melo is a high win share dude since he hasn't been over the last few seasons).

And if you do its going to take many seasons to collect that. And role players tend to fluctuate with there win shares.Corey Joseph went from a 150 Win share 48 on the Spurs to a 082. on Toronto. . Melo cost 22.8mil. Rolo cost 12.6 mil. So you aren't getting 6 Rolo's.


Win shares is pretty stable even if occasionally a player fluctuates. Rolo's contract is mediocre. It's not a disaster but it's not a deal I'd use as an example. If you're going by win shares (and it sounds like you are), you should know that the 2nd highest contract in the league for .121 is a bad deal. There are a lot of players (including non-rookies) making $2 to 4 mil a year with win shares at or near that level.

I went by Win shares because I know that's what you would go by in choosing what FAs or players to go after. If Win shares are pretty consistent then going into the deal he posted win shares of 157. 160. 184. 172. since he joined the Knicks.

A team being able to collect a bunch of high win share players is rare which is why a team like Cavs can dominate the east with 1 player above 200. 2 players above 150. and 6 players above 100 out 9. They also had 4 #1 picks. But there are only few teams like that.

Given our situation a team like Detroit would probably be the best example of what we could maybe pull off. With 5 players out of 8 at around 100. win shares. 2 more at around 90. win shares. But none above 150. win shares. Based off the type of players they were able to acquire and how they were able to acquire them.

Tobias Harris .178 in 27 games with detroit
Baynes .158 decent enough minutes / sample size
Reggie .138 pretty good
Drummond .133 - needs to hit FT's

According to Bonn I wouldn't be able to go by the 178 with Detroit though but the 87.-126. average he posted majority of his career.

Detroit also can only improve from within though after they pay Drummond, which is possible since Stanley Johnson has loads of potential and Pope has been improving each yr.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
TPercy
Posts: 28010
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Member: #5748
6/2/2016  7:36 PM
Anothert also might be helpful is nbaminer.com
Plenty of different types of stats and a very well constructed site
The Future is Bright!
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/2/2016  8:57 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

I don't think that's the norm though Bonn. I don't think you can land 6 strong role players with quality win shares. Which is why star players with high win shares are so important(Not saying that Melo is a high win share dude since he hasn't been over the last few seasons).

And if you do its going to take many seasons to collect that. And role players tend to fluctuate with there win shares.Corey Joseph went from a 150 Win share 48 on the Spurs to a 082. on Toronto. . Melo cost 22.8mil. Rolo cost 12.6 mil. So you aren't getting 6 Rolo's.


Win shares is pretty stable even if occasionally a player fluctuates. Rolo's contract is mediocre. It's not a disaster but it's not a deal I'd use as an example. If you're going by win shares (and it sounds like you are), you should know that the 2nd highest contract in the league for .121 is a bad deal. There are a lot of players (including non-rookies) making $2 to 4 mil a year with win shares at or near that level.

I went by Win shares because I know that's what you would go by in choosing what FAs or players to go after. If Win shares are pretty consistent then going into the deal he posted win shares of 157. 160. 184. 172. since he joined the Knicks.

A team being able to collect a bunch of high win share players is rare which is why a team like Cavs can dominate the east with 1 player above 200. 2 players above 150. and 6 players above 100 out 9. They also had 4 #1 picks. But there are only few teams like that.

Given our situation a team like Detroit would probably be the best example of what we could maybe pull off. With 5 players out of 8 at around 100. win shares. 2 more at around 90. win shares. But none above 150. win shares. Based off the type of players they were able to acquire and how they were able to acquire them.


but he was at the age where there is typically a sharp decline. That's why I wanted to trade him when he was at his peak.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/2/2016  9:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/2/2016  9:01 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
mreinman wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

I don't think that's the norm though Bonn. I don't think you can land 6 strong role players with quality win shares. Which is why star players with high win shares are so important(Not saying that Melo is a high win share dude since he hasn't been over the last few seasons).

And if you do its going to take many seasons to collect that. And role players tend to fluctuate with there win shares.Corey Joseph went from a 150 Win share 48 on the Spurs to a 082. on Toronto. . Melo cost 22.8mil. Rolo cost 12.6 mil. So you aren't getting 6 Rolo's.


Win shares is pretty stable even if occasionally a player fluctuates. Rolo's contract is mediocre. It's not a disaster but it's not a deal I'd use as an example. If you're going by win shares (and it sounds like you are), you should know that the 2nd highest contract in the league for .121 is a bad deal. There are a lot of players (including non-rookies) making $2 to 4 mil a year with win shares at or near that level.

I went by Win shares because I know that's what you would go by in choosing what FAs or players to go after. If Win shares are pretty consistent then going into the deal he posted win shares of 157. 160. 184. 172. since he joined the Knicks.

A team being able to collect a bunch of high win share players is rare which is why a team like Cavs can dominate the east with 1 player above 200. 2 players above 150. and 6 players above 100 out 9. They also had 4 #1 picks. But there are only few teams like that.

Given our situation a team like Detroit would probably be the best example of what we could maybe pull off. With 5 players out of 8 at around 100. win shares. 2 more at around 90. win shares. But none above 150. win shares. Based off the type of players they were able to acquire and how they were able to acquire them.

Tobias Harris .178 in 27 games with detroit
Baynes .158 decent enough minutes / sample size
Reggie .138 pretty good
Drummond .133 - needs to hit FT's

According to Bonn I wouldn't be able to go by the 178 with Detroit though but the 87.-126. average he posted majority of his career.

Detroit also can only improve from within though after they pay Drummond, which is possible since Stanley Johnson has loads of potential and Pope has been improving each yr.


It's trickier because Harris is at an age where players tend to sharply improve. WS is pretty stable but there are strong age effects too. The stat is most stable with guys in their mid to upper 20s.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/3/2016  6:33 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/3/2016  6:59 AM
crzymdups wrote:Interesting that our best five man lineups had Galloway at the point and Afflalo at SG.

http://www.82games.com/1516/1516NYK2.HTM

Galloway-Afflalo-Anthony-Porzingis-Lopez +21 in 87min (how did that lineup only play 87min all season?)

Galloway-Afflalo-Thomas-Anthony-Lopez +13 in 67min

Those are the only two lineups that Galloway and Afflalo shared the floor in and they were +34 in 154min total.

This is an interesting five-man combo, too, would love to see it with a better PG

Calderon-Afflalo-Anthony-Williams-Poringis +11 in 34min


IMHO, this shows why keeping Afflalo may be a decent option. I'd like him off the bench not starting, but keeping him around would not be bad.


I've wondered that too. The minute totals of different lineups always look too low to me on 82games. Maybe we just used a lot of different lineups and no one lineup got a lot of time? I do wonder if they have it wrong, though.

It's interesting going by the net production and the on/off #s, Afflalo and Vujacic were our least bad guards. With the Win Shares, Box Plus Minus, PER and other measures, Calderon and Galloway look less bad, though.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/3/2016  6:34 AM
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

yeah ... but at least we are not screwed like toronto and their gloomy forecast.


LOL. I just noticed this now.
newyorknewyork
Posts: 30259
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
6/3/2016  7:04 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

yeah ... but at least we are not screwed like toronto and their gloomy forecast.


LOL. I just noticed this now.

It was cute, wasn't accurate, but did make me chuckle.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/3/2016  7:55 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

yeah ... but at least we are not screwed like toronto and their gloomy forecast.


LOL. I just noticed this now.

It was cute, wasn't accurate, but did make me chuckle.


I don't think he was criticizing you specifically. I remember some people were knocking Toronto earlier but I didn't remember who.
newyorknewyork
Posts: 30259
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
6/3/2016  10:03 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

yeah ... but at least we are not screwed like toronto and their gloomy forecast.


LOL. I just noticed this now.

It was cute, wasn't accurate, but did make me chuckle.


I don't think he was criticizing you specifically. I remember some people were knocking Toronto earlier but I didn't remember who.

Well for the reacord

Toronto not being a championship level team doesnt nessesarily translate to Toronto being screwed or having a gloomy forcast.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/3/2016  10:22 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:

His numbers are as nice as a beautiful $750K house that you paid $2 mil for.

That's a beautiful analogy right there!

/Endthread

Him being overpaid would matter to me more if it prevented the Knicks from maneuvering, it hasn't. We had 30 mil in cap space last off season. 19 mil in cap space this coming off season. We added a potential franchise player in KP.

We established that the Win Shares 48 market is dry as hell. So the fantasy 4 players that we could add with Carmelo's money isn't there. I don't see any superstar high win share player that is signing here while everyone else has cap space as well and we aren't a winning situation at the moment.


We have the cap space but we have a .390 team that will have a tough time attracting players. I think if we had 6 strong role players instead of Melo (or 3 role players and 3 starters, or some other combinatio), we'd have a much, much better team that would attract FAs and the same cap space. Unless the league gets rid of the salary cap, there's no such thing as poorly spent money that doesn't matter.
It's not just Melo, though. There are many bad contracts. When you spend $74 mil on a (mostly) veteran .390 team, you did a lot of things wrong.

yeah ... but at least we are not screwed like toronto and their gloomy forecast.


LOL. I just noticed this now.

It was cute, wasn't accurate, but did make me chuckle.


I don't think he was criticizing you specifically. I remember some people were knocking Toronto earlier but I didn't remember who.

Well for the reacord

Toronto not being a championship level team doesnt nessesarily translate to Toronto being screwed or having a gloomy forcast.


Yeah, I agree. I think he was referring to an old thread.
dk7th
Posts: 30006
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/14/2012
Member: #4228
USA
6/3/2016  5:12 PM
bonn i have no idea what defensive numbers you are referring to. i use two, the DBPM on basketball reference and ESPN's RPM. as chuckbuck alluded to, melo is 51st among small forwards on defensive rpm and on basketball reference he is below average.

it does not mean that i was not overjoyed with the level of his play for 30 of the total number of games he played, and you could make a case for saying that during those 30 games he played average or better defense.

one has to wonder how his body is going to hold up. he'd be so much more effective at 26-28 minutes a game off the bench.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/3/2016  5:55 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/3/2016  5:57 PM
dk7th wrote:bonn i have no idea what defensive numbers you are referring to. i use two, the DBPM on basketball reference and ESPN's RPM. as chuckbuck alluded to, melo is 51st among small forwards on defensive rpm and on basketball reference he is below average.

it does not mean that i was not overjoyed with the level of his play for 30 of the total number of games he played, and you could make a case for saying that during those 30 games he played average or better defense.

one has to wonder how his body is going to hold up. he'd be so much more effective at 26-28 minutes a game off the bench.


That's a mistake IMO. Defense is so hard to measure. There is no one measure that tells you everything you need to know.
I was referring to the opponent production stats on 82games and the NBA player tracking data on nba.com. Both of these directly measure the production of the man you're guarding. You may get other useful information from DBPM, RPM, etc. but it is non-overlapping information that compliments the types of stats I cited. There is no benefit I can think of to looking at only DBPM/RPM and ignoring the other data. They're different types of information. It would be like saying you'll look at a baseball player's RBIs but refuse to look at his HRs. There's no reason to pick just one.
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