CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

I based my assessment on his production from the 54 games this season. Some stretches may have been really bad. That's why I used the full sample of games. I never said TH JR would be a very good player. I think his numbers project to a higher probability of being a useful rotation player than Grant's do. What sample are you basing Grant's apparent future success on?

I don't like using numbers in every single case. In this case the numbers can hide the true talent level of a young PG like Jerian. He's not as bad as the numbers he put up this year. Jerian clearly was being hampered by the situation he was in. He had a lot of trouble making the transition not only to the NBA but the Triangle which only made things harder. Jerian was not a shooter coming out of college and so sure his numbers looked bad for much of the season. He did demonstrate some improvement in his shooting which bodes well for him going forward.

Just watching Jerian you can see the ability he has still untapped. THJ may develop into a decent reserve for ATL, so they may be happy with the trade but I think Jerian has the potential to be a more impactful player for the Knicks. We'll see how things go for him starting next year. I'm expecting a much different performance from Jerian next year.

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

I based my assessment on his production from the 54 games this season. Some stretches may have been really bad. That's why I used the full sample of games. I never said TH JR would be a very good player. I think his numbers project to a higher probability of being a useful rotation player than Grant's do. What sample are you basing Grant's apparent future success on?

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

I based my assessment on his production from the 54 games this season. Some stretches may have been really bad. That's why I used the full sample of games. I never said TH JR would be a very good player. I think his numbers project to a higher probability of being a useful rotation player than Grant's do. What sample are you basing Grant's apparent future success on?

He was the second highest rated point guard by most draft sites last year in the draft. I loved him at Notre Dame and didn't anticipate that he would struggle like he did as a rookie but he certainly improved down the stretch when he got consistent minutes. I also think he is a tremendous work ethic and will get every ounce he can out of his talent. I never saw that in Hardaway.

I was talking strictly about projecting their NBA performances. Once we have data from NBA games, I'd give that more weight than previous reputation.

We could all see how much more comfortable Jerian was when they put him in Drag Screen or PnR scenarios. It indicated to me that he was not functioning at his full talent level. I suspect under JH we could see a major jump in his productivity.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

I based my assessment on his production from the 54 games this season. Some stretches may have been really bad. That's why I used the full sample of games. I never said TH JR would be a very good player. I think his numbers project to a higher probability of being a useful rotation player than Grant's do. What sample are you basing Grant's apparent future success on?

He was the second highest rated point guard by most draft sites last year in the draft. I loved him at Notre Dame and didn't anticipate that he would struggle like he did as a rookie but he certainly improved down the stretch when he got consistent minutes. I also think he is a tremendous work ethic and will get every ounce he can out of his talent. I never saw that in Hardaway.

I was talking strictly about projecting their NBA performances. Once we have data from NBA games, I'd give that more weight than previous reputation.

I just think in this case i'm gonna go with my eyes more than the way the numbers ended up looking. Seeing Jerian in college and in the NBA I can tell he was severely impacted by changes involved in trying to learn to play as a Triangle PG. It messed with his head and he lost confidence in his natural talent. We started to see more of the true Jerian at the end and that was the player I and others expected to see.

We could all see how much more comfortable Jerian was when they put him in Drag Screen or PnR scenarios. It indicated to me that he was not functioning at his full talent level. I suspect under JH we could see a major jump in his productivity.

Well, it seems like your going entirely with your eyes (not more with your eyes). But if you're doing that, let me ask how many of TH JRs games in the 2nd half of the season (when he turned it up), did you watch?

He didnt rally play the first 2 months of the season and then ballstreams went down so Hawks games weren't that accessible for me. I would think you would have had to watch the hawks all the time in March to speak much about his play. I looked at his game log and he did get 4 consecutive games in March where he broke the 20 minute mark.

I live in Georgia, so Hawks games are free on TV. THJ overall game just doesn't really impress me. He had some good moments IMO, but he's not the 3nD SG I think this team needed and he's not a Combo guard that can create a lot either. It's not like he's devoid of talent. I just like the package Jerian brings and I think he was simply knocked off kilter and not used to the best of his ability. At one point in the year I was shocked to find out Jerian had only played 17 total minutes with KP!!! That was the most natural combo we had and they barely used it. KP and Jerian on Drag Screens and PnR was really excellent. Now I can imagine an entire season full of those kinds of plays rather than a few sprinkled over the season as we just saw.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

I based my assessment on his production from the 54 games this season. Some stretches may have been really bad. That's why I used the full sample of games. I never said TH JR would be a very good player. I think his numbers project to a higher probability of being a useful rotation player than Grant's do. What sample are you basing Grant's apparent future success on?

I don't like using numbers in every single case. In this case the numbers can hide the true talent level of a young PG like Jerian. He's not as bad as the numbers he put up this year. Jerian clearly was being hampered by the situation he was in. He had a lot of trouble making the transition not only to the NBA but the Triangle which only made things harder. Jerian was not a shooter coming out of college and so sure his numbers looked bad for much of the season. He did demonstrate some improvement in his shooting which bodes well for him going forward.

Just watching Jerian you can see the ability he has still untapped. THJ may develop into a decent reserve for ATL, so they may be happy with the trade but I think Jerian has the potential to be a more impactful player for the Knicks. We'll see how things go for him starting next year. I'm expecting a much different performance from Jerian next year.

There's a difference between fully relying on the numbers, taking a middle ground, and fully ignoring the numbers. I said I could accept the view of someone who called it a wash because TH JR had much better #s but Jerian was in a worse situation. Without any way of knowing which of those factors was more important, it would be acceptable to say they cancel each other out. (I don't find it compelling that the situation a player is in has the kind of gigantic impact on his stats that would be needed to come up with a much more favorable projection for Grant, but I could accept that optimistic middle ground viewpoint.)

THJ does nothing but shoot the ball so i can't believe his numbers were much better all around even with THJ getting more playing time than Jerian. Jerian never got consistent minutes to get better with and was trying to learn a tough offense for PG's in his rookie season. I really don't understand how you can compare a rookie PG to THJ.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

I based my assessment on his production from the 54 games this season. Some stretches may have been really bad. That's why I used the full sample of games. I never said TH JR would be a very good player. I think his numbers project to a higher probability of being a useful rotation player than Grant's do. What sample are you basing Grant's apparent future success on?

I don't like using numbers in every single case. In this case the numbers can hide the true talent level of a young PG like Jerian. He's not as bad as the numbers he put up this year. Jerian clearly was being hampered by the situation he was in. He had a lot of trouble making the transition not only to the NBA but the Triangle which only made things harder. Jerian was not a shooter coming out of college and so sure his numbers looked bad for much of the season. He did demonstrate some improvement in his shooting which bodes well for him going forward.

Just watching Jerian you can see the ability he has still untapped. THJ may develop into a decent reserve for ATL, so they may be happy with the trade but I think Jerian has the potential to be a more impactful player for the Knicks. We'll see how things go for him starting next year. I'm expecting a much different performance from Jerian next year.

There's a difference between fully relying on the numbers, taking a middle ground, and fully ignoring the numbers. I said I could accept the view of someone who called it a wash because TH JR had much better #s but Jerian was in a worse situation. Without any way of knowing which of those factors was more important, it would be acceptable to say they cancel each other out. (I don't find it compelling that the situation a player is in has the kind of gigantic impact on his stats that would be needed to come up with a much more favorable projection for Grant, but I could accept that optimistic middle ground viewpoint.)

THJ does nothing but shoot the ball so i can't believe his numbers were much better all around even with THJ getting more playing time than Jerian. Jerian never got consistent minutes to get better with and was trying to learn a tough offense for PG's in his rookie season. I really don't understand how you can compare a rookie PG to THJ.

I was taking into account year of play. I included that in the overall evaluation (see bold in first comment above).
There's still a lot of uncertainty in the projections. I might guess it's about a 30% Atlanta comes out with the better player, 15% we do, and 50 or 55% that these end up being comparable (and probably unimportant) players and the trade is a wash. The thing is, the discussion here was about the idea of *adding* draft picks, and the claim was we got an extra pick out of this trade (rather than just swapping players). So Grant has to be a significantly better player than TH JR for that to be the case.

Grant projects to be a better defender, rebounder, creator then Hardaway Jr. The only thing that THJ projects to be better then Grant in is shooting. So for him to turn into the better player his shooting is going to have to be way better then Grants best ability. Which would be creating off the PNR. As well as not fall to far off from the other areas of the game compared to Grant. Hardaway also probably fits ATL better then he did the triangle. I don't believe he would ever develop into the player he would have needed to be here so even if he did turn into the better player. Wouldn't mean that he would have developed into that for us.

Grant's last yr in college he held a 592 TS%, 33.6 ast - 24.2 usage, 7.7 win shares, 218 win shares 48, 8.9 Box plus minus. In NCAA he was #2 in points produced, #3 in win shares, #3 in assist.

None of Hardaway Jrs advanced stats compare to that coming out of college. Grant had comparable advanced stats his freshman yr in college to Hardaway's Jr yr.

I think there is more overall data that project Grant to be a better player then Hardaway. By Grant's 3rd yr in the league I expect him to have put up a better season then Hardaway's 3rd yr in the league.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Last year the Knicks got grant for Hardaway. This year what do they have to trade to get into the first round.

that was a great trade by the way. I think the hawks felt timmy would do much better after a change of scenery. This year will be much tougher to get a first

TH JR played pretty well. At best, this trade is a wash. I think his stats from a 3rd year player project better than Grant's from a rookie (for example, .105 vs. 030 WS 48). There's uncertainty in the projections but statistically it looks more likely than not that Atlanta will come out with the better player.

I disagree with this. J.Grant was put in a tough situation and never got consistent minutes and put in the triangle offense with a ton of pressure and if Hornacek is allowed to play his style of offense i think we'll see a much more comfotable Grant playing in a style of offense that better suits him.

agreed. Jerian was mishandled IMO. He will be much better this year once he is given more minutes. Point guard is the most difficult position IMO from my own experiences and being a nba point guard is extremely tough and i think jerian has the tools to be pretty good

That's really generous. I think that after taking into account whatever qualifiers you want to throw in and looking at the players' production, only Knicks fans would conclude that we are more likely than Atlanta is to win the trade. If you looked at their #s and took into account those qualifiers and then called it a wash (50% each side wins the trade), I think that would be generous to us but I could respect the position. But to look at everything and say that the guy with much worse production is *likely* to end up being the better player is wishful thinking IMO.

Hardaway was pretty brutal in Atlanta. He couldn't get on the court and ended up in the d league for awhile. Budenholzer likes him so that may help him down the road but I haven't read or heard anyone say that the Hawks won that deal including the few Hawk fans that I know. Also, Hardaway only played 800+ minutes for the Hawks when he wasn't in the dl. What are you basing his apparent future success on?

I based my assessment on his production from the 54 games this season. Some stretches may have been really bad. That's why I used the full sample of games. I never said TH JR would be a very good player. I think his numbers project to a higher probability of being a useful rotation player than Grant's do. What sample are you basing Grant's apparent future success on?

I don't like using numbers in every single case. In this case the numbers can hide the true talent level of a young PG like Jerian. He's not as bad as the numbers he put up this year. Jerian clearly was being hampered by the situation he was in. He had a lot of trouble making the transition not only to the NBA but the Triangle which only made things harder. Jerian was not a shooter coming out of college and so sure his numbers looked bad for much of the season. He did demonstrate some improvement in his shooting which bodes well for him going forward.

Just watching Jerian you can see the ability he has still untapped. THJ may develop into a decent reserve for ATL, so they may be happy with the trade but I think Jerian has the potential to be a more impactful player for the Knicks. We'll see how things go for him starting next year. I'm expecting a much different performance from Jerian next year.

There's a difference between fully relying on the numbers, taking a middle ground, and fully ignoring the numbers. I said I could accept the view of someone who called it a wash because TH JR had much better #s but Jerian was in a worse situation. Without any way of knowing which of those factors was more important, it would be acceptable to say they cancel each other out. (I don't find it compelling that the situation a player is in has the kind of gigantic impact on his stats that would be needed to come up with a much more favorable projection for Grant, but I could accept that optimistic middle ground viewpoint.)

THJ does nothing but shoot the ball so i can't believe his numbers were much better all around even with THJ getting more playing time than Jerian. Jerian never got consistent minutes to get better with and was trying to learn a tough offense for PG's in his rookie season. I really don't understand how you can compare a rookie PG to THJ.

I was taking into account year of play. I included that in the overall evaluation (see bold in first comment above).
There's still a lot of uncertainty in the projections. I might guess it's about a 30% Atlanta comes out with the better player, 15% we do, and 50 or 55% that these end up being comparable (and probably unimportant) players and the trade is a wash. The thing is, the discussion here was about the idea of *adding* draft picks, and the claim was we got an extra pick out of this trade (rather than just swapping players). So Grant has to be a significantly better player than TH JR for that to be the case.

I think the trade was referred to as a player swap. Are you saying someone said the Knicks go Grant and a pick?