crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Each team has a high usage high scoring PG.

Kyle Lowry 21 points 4-6
R Westbrook 23-8-10
Kyrie Irving 20-3-5
S Curry 30-5-7

I agree with this premise - I made a similar post about the second round teams. Look at the teams who lost in the second round -

Damien Lillard
Tony Parker
Goran Dragic
Jeff Teague / Dennis Schroeder

All high level PGs.

In fact you could even say that in every series so far the team that has gotten better PG play has won. Lowry is pulling Toronto back against Cleveland with his improved play.

Its players who can make plays WITH the dribble--drive shoot pass. Im not sure we have that.

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:
Sounds nice, but here are the finalists in the last 20 years. Not sure it's the key ingredient it's being made out to be. Other than Steph last year, who am I missing (Tony Parker?)

2015 Golden State Warriors 4-2 Cleveland Cavaliers
2014 San Antonio Spurs 4-1 Miami Heat
2013 Miami Heat 4-3 San Antonio Spurs
2012 Miami Heat 4-1 Oklahoma City Thunder
2011 Dallas Mavericks 4-2 Miami Heat
2010 Los Angeles Lakers 4-3 Boston Celtics
2009 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Orlando Magic
2008 Boston Celtics 4-2 Los Angeles Lakers
2007 San Antonio Spurs 4-0 Cleveland Cavaliers
2006 Miami Heat 4-2 Dallas Mavericks
2005 San Antonio Spurs 4-3 Detroit Pistons
2004 Detroit Pistons 4-1 Los Angeles Lakers
2003 San Antonio Spurs 4-2 New Jersey Nets
2002 Los Angeles Lakers 4-0 New Jersey Nets
2001 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Philadelphia 76ers
2000 Los Angeles Lakers 4-2 Indiana Pacers
1999 San Antonio Spurs 4-1 New York Knicks
1998 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Utah Jazz
1997 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Utah Jazz
1996 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Seattle SuperSonics
1995 Houston Rockets 4-0 Orlando Magic

Chauncey Billups was Finals MVP in 2004. And Tony Parker was one of the best, most underrated players in the league when he was in his prime. John Stockton made back to back Finals against the Bulls, Gary Payton before him. Jason Kidd made back to back Finals and then guided to Dirk to his only ring. Rondo for the Celtics. Lebron James essentially plays the role of PG on his teams. Take out those and you're left with the Triangle teams, basically.

Point guard play has always been important - but I do agree with Briggs that it has been magnified by the way the league plays now.

Not saying that's the only way to play. In fact, if you don't have Russ Westbrook or Steph Curry, it may not be a good idea to try to play that way right now... but it is certainly notable.

not disagreeing with you about importance, but (a) Briggs also said high scoring and (b) tone was that of dominant pg play

I just don't see it. For the last 20 years only Steph has been The Man on a championship team that fits that bill. Stockton, Billups, Parker etc. were all parts of either very well balanced teams, teams that emphasized defense (e.g., Billups)

For many of these teams I would challenge people to take a test and say who were the starting point guards on any of these teams even -- not just not dominant but forgetable (not bad -- just not good enough to remember)

I think pg is very important, but balance is more important. Teams have to take what the other team gives

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:
Sounds nice, but here are the finalists in the last 20 years. Not sure it's the key ingredient it's being made out to be. Other than Steph last year, who am I missing (Tony Parker?)

2015 Golden State Warriors 4-2 Cleveland Cavaliers
2014 San Antonio Spurs 4-1 Miami Heat
2013 Miami Heat 4-3 San Antonio Spurs
2012 Miami Heat 4-1 Oklahoma City Thunder
2011 Dallas Mavericks 4-2 Miami Heat
2010 Los Angeles Lakers 4-3 Boston Celtics
2009 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Orlando Magic
2008 Boston Celtics 4-2 Los Angeles Lakers
2007 San Antonio Spurs 4-0 Cleveland Cavaliers
2006 Miami Heat 4-2 Dallas Mavericks
2005 San Antonio Spurs 4-3 Detroit Pistons
2004 Detroit Pistons 4-1 Los Angeles Lakers
2003 San Antonio Spurs 4-2 New Jersey Nets
2002 Los Angeles Lakers 4-0 New Jersey Nets
2001 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Philadelphia 76ers
2000 Los Angeles Lakers 4-2 Indiana Pacers
1999 San Antonio Spurs 4-1 New York Knicks
1998 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Utah Jazz
1997 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Utah Jazz
1996 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Seattle SuperSonics
1995 Houston Rockets 4-0 Orlando Magic

Chauncey Billups was Finals MVP in 2004. And Tony Parker was one of the best, most underrated players in the league when he was in his prime. John Stockton made back to back Finals against the Bulls, Gary Payton before him. Jason Kidd made back to back Finals and then guided to Dirk to his only ring. Rondo for the Celtics. Lebron James essentially plays the role of PG on his teams. Take out those and you're left with the Triangle teams, basically.

Point guard play has always been important - but I do agree with Briggs that it has been magnified by the way the league plays now.

Not saying that's the only way to play. In fact, if you don't have Russ Westbrook or Steph Curry, it may not be a good idea to try to play that way right now... but it is certainly notable.

not disagreeing with you about importance, but (a) Briggs also said high scoring and (b) tone was that of dominant pg play

I just don't see it. For the last 20 years only Steph has been The Man on a championship team that fits that bill. Stockton, Billups, Parker etc. were all parts of either very well balanced teams, teams that emphasized defense (e.g., Billups)

For many of these teams I would challenge people to take a test and say who were the starting point guards on any of these teams even -- not just not dominant but forgetable (not bad -- just not good enough to remember)

I think pg is very important, but balance is more important. Teams have to take what the other team gives

Look at OKC. Westbrook has been amazing for a few years. What they are winning with now is size and more balance. How about the Spurs? Is Parker a high scoring high usage PG? They have won a couple titles no? Many factors play in but only one is consistent year after year... talent. All these teams are stacked 1-8

Of course. Draymond ****ting the bed against OKC proves how important that balance is.

BUT. A key component of EVERY dominant team is a high caliber guy who can make plays off the dribble. Be it Lebron, Jordan, Steph Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Tony Parker.

Portland has a very green roster outside of Dame Lillard and CJ McCollum. Those two got them past the Clippers and played the Warriors extremely well in spite of that.

Guys who can create off the dribble, for themselves and others, and are good shooters to boot, are EXTREMELY important in this league. We dont have one of those. Don't say Melo. That's not his game. We need a guard who can do it. Maybe Grant turns into that guy. Maybe Wroten does. But it often takes years for guys to figure it out if they aren't all world talents. Even Westbrook has turned a corner in his play this season - fewer dumb mistakes, fewer dumb shots, trusts his teammates more in the right spots, takes advantage when he has it better. The little things it takes years to master.

This is why I would take a little gamble on Brandon Jennings. He is in that mold. Is he as good as some others on this list? Maybe not. But how good was Lowry thought to be when he was 26? For reference, he was traded to Toronto at age 26 and averaged 11pp on 40% shooting. WS/48 of .133. He was thought of as a bad character and that's why Toronto almost traded him to the Knicks a year later. Brandon Jennings CAN be the next guy like Lowry, Dragic, Billups who figures it out when he's 26-27. He has that skill level. Not saying he will, but I know the smarts and skills are there. Is his head on right? Is he back from injury? I think he's worth the risk.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Chandler wrote:
Sounds nice, but here are the finalists in the last 20 years. Not sure it's the key ingredient it's being made out to be. Other than Steph last year, who am I missing (Tony Parker?)

2015 Golden State Warriors 4-2 Cleveland Cavaliers
2014 San Antonio Spurs 4-1 Miami Heat
2013 Miami Heat 4-3 San Antonio Spurs
2012 Miami Heat 4-1 Oklahoma City Thunder
2011 Dallas Mavericks 4-2 Miami Heat
2010 Los Angeles Lakers 4-3 Boston Celtics
2009 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Orlando Magic
2008 Boston Celtics 4-2 Los Angeles Lakers
2007 San Antonio Spurs 4-0 Cleveland Cavaliers
2006 Miami Heat 4-2 Dallas Mavericks
2005 San Antonio Spurs 4-3 Detroit Pistons
2004 Detroit Pistons 4-1 Los Angeles Lakers
2003 San Antonio Spurs 4-2 New Jersey Nets
2002 Los Angeles Lakers 4-0 New Jersey Nets
2001 Los Angeles Lakers 4-1 Philadelphia 76ers
2000 Los Angeles Lakers 4-2 Indiana Pacers
1999 San Antonio Spurs 4-1 New York Knicks
1998 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Utah Jazz
1997 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Utah Jazz
1996 Chicago Bulls 4-2 Seattle SuperSonics
1995 Houston Rockets 4-0 Orlando Magic

Chauncey Billups was Finals MVP in 2004. And Tony Parker was one of the best, most underrated players in the league when he was in his prime. John Stockton made back to back Finals against the Bulls, Gary Payton before him. Jason Kidd made back to back Finals and then guided to Dirk to his only ring. Rondo for the Celtics. Lebron James essentially plays the role of PG on his teams. Take out those and you're left with the Triangle teams, basically.

Point guard play has always been important - but I do agree with Briggs that it has been magnified by the way the league plays now.

Not saying that's the only way to play. In fact, if you don't have Russ Westbrook or Steph Curry, it may not be a good idea to try to play that way right now... but it is certainly notable.

not disagreeing with you about importance, but (a) Briggs also said high scoring and (b) tone was that of dominant pg play

I just don't see it. For the last 20 years only Steph has been The Man on a championship team that fits that bill. Stockton, Billups, Parker etc. were all parts of either very well balanced teams, teams that emphasized defense (e.g., Billups)

For many of these teams I would challenge people to take a test and say who were the starting point guards on any of these teams even -- not just not dominant but forgetable (not bad -- just not good enough to remember)

I think pg is very important, but balance is more important. Teams have to take what the other team gives

Look at OKC. Westbrook has been amazing for a few years. What they are winning with now is size and more balance. How about the Spurs? Is Parker a high scoring high usage PG? They have won a couple titles no? Many factors play in but only one is consistent year after year... talent. All these teams are stacked 1-8

Of course. Draymond ****ting the bed against OKC proves how important that balance is.

BUT. A key component of EVERY dominant team is a high caliber guy who can make plays off the dribble. Be it Lebron, Jordan, Steph Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Tony Parker.

Portland has a very green roster outside of Dame Lillard and CJ McCollum. Those two got them past the Clippers and played the Warriors extremely well in spite of that.

Guys who can create off the dribble, for themselves and others, and are good shooters to boot, are EXTREMELY important in this league. We dont have one of those. Don't say Melo. That's not his game. We need a guard who can do it. Maybe Grant turns into that guy. Maybe Wroten does. But it often takes years for guys to figure it out if they aren't all world talents. Even Westbrook has turned a corner in his play this season - fewer dumb mistakes, fewer dumb shots, trusts his teammates more in the right spots, takes advantage when he has it better. The little things it takes years to master.

This is why I would take a little gamble on Brandon Jennings. He is in that mold. Is he as good as some others on this list? Maybe not. But how good was Lowry thought to be when he was 26? For reference, he was traded to Toronto at age 26 and averaged 11pp on 40% shooting. WS/48 of .133. He was thought of as a bad character and that's why Toronto almost traded him to the Knicks a year later. Brandon Jennings CAN be the next guy like Lowry, Dragic, Billups who figures it out when he's 26-27. He has that skill level. Not saying he will, but I know the smarts and skills are there. Is his head on right? Is he back from injury? I think he's worth the risk.

I agree about the importance of dribble penetration and attacking the rim for all sorts of reasons. I don't know enough about Jennings. I remember him when he first came in the league because we passed on him and he was kind of pissed about that.

for some inexplicable reason, I keep thinking about Evan Turner. He had a horrible reputation at OSU and certainly floundered in his early career. But as some here noted perhaps he has some humility now and grew up. With the celts he seems to be able to get to the hoop and be smart with the ball. Not a pg but a key facilitator. wondering what you think about him? Also wondering if you see more growth in D.Will's game in a similar manner. He did have an ability to wave his way in there. Wondering if he's figuring out the next phase of his evolution (e.g., passing)