Vmart wrote:Big names are going to be difficult to get. So I would stay away and look for player like Lin, Curry and Waiter. Those are obtainable players. Probably can get all three.

No! Those guys don't move the needle. I want a shooting guard that's a stud or as close as I can get to it.

Derozan
Batum
Fournier
Crabbe
Bazemore
Beal
Stephenson

Vmart wrote:

reub wrote:

Vmart wrote:Big names are going to be difficult to get. So I would stay away and look for player like Lin, Curry and Waiter. Those are obtainable players. Probably can get all three.

No! Those guys don't move the needle. I want a shooting guard that's a stud or as close as I can get to it.

Derozan
Batum
Fournier
Crabbe
Bazemore
Beal
Stephenson

Derozan isn't going to leave Toronto they can offer him the most money and best situation. The rest are not really needle movers. Some have history of injury or just aren't move the needle players. To me Beal is the best target but you would have to max him out and some are saying he has a chronic leg issue. Can't seem to stay on the court same with Batum who also is often injured. Stephenson never liked his game fizzled out in Charlotte you could say Lin replaced him very easily. Bazemore I'm not so sure of any Hawks players I just never thought to highly of him. Fournier not a needle mover. Crabbe wouldn't over pay for his services I don't think he is anything that is a game changer.

The reason I picked Lin, Curry and Waiters is because they hit the three. Waiters I feel would be a great addition to the backcourt he can score and plays decent defense. As for Curry he can shoot and he has the pedigree. Lin simply because he can perform on the MSG stage we know this. He give another dimension to the team as a off guard or PG.

Lin has a WS/48 of .082 and Waiters is .044. Neither is any better than some of the cheaper young options. People hate on Jennings but even with coming off the injury and switching teams he was at a WS/48 of .090. It's really tough to determine who would have the best impact for the buck.

Crabbe WS/48 was .098 and Tyler Johnson was .114. These young guys are more intriguing IMO.

nixluva wrote:This makes looking at the list a little bit different now that we know who the coach is. Horn may ask Phil for a different type of guard than we've had in mind before or maybe not. What do you guys think? Who would you go after given the new Coach?

Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 DeMar DeRozan     SG  26  TOR  73  2640  21.5  .551	.102  .483  7.0  20.4  1.5  0.7  9.5  29.7  9.3  .169	 2.6   -1.2  1.4  2.3
02 Tyler Johnson     SG  23  MIA  36   863  13.8  .581  .289  .264  7.2  14.1  1.4  1.3  14.8 16.8  2.1  .114    0.4    0.1  0.5  0.5
03 Troy Daniels      SG  24  CHO  39   386  14.7  .613  .626  .058  6.8  7.2   1.0  0.6  10.2 20.7  0.8  .105	 1.1   -2.8 -1.7  0.0
04 Nicolas Batum     SG  27  CHO  65  2317  15.8  .549  .460  .226  9.7  26.5  1.3  1.5  17.7 21.3  4.9  .101    1.2    1.1  2.3  2.5	
05 Leandro Barbosa   SG  33  GSW  62   980  12.1  .545  .297  .182  5.6  11.4  2.1  0.7  11.3 18.2  0.9	 .099	-1.0   -0.9 -1.9  0.0	
06 Allen Crabbe      SG  23  POR  74  1925  12.2  .568  .416  .158  5.6  7.2   1.5  0.6  8.1  16.6  3.9  .098    0.3   -1.1 -0.8  0.6
07 Brandon Rush      SG  30  GSW  65   990  10.3  .556	.593  .114  9.1  7.3   1.0  1.5  10.1 12.5  1.9  .093	-1.1   -0.1 -1.2  0.2
08 Evan Turner       SG  27  BOS  74  2051  13.6  .507  .114  .237  9.4  24.0  1.7  0.9  16.7 18.5  3.7  .086	-2.0    1.3 -0.7  0.7
09 Courtney Lee	     SG	 30  TOT  71  2088  12.0  .566	.341  .195  4.9  8.9   1.8  1.0	 9.8  14.9  2.2	 .086	-0.2   -0.3 -0.5  0.8
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Ian Clark         SG  24  GSW  61   556  12.0  .549	.415  .170  6.5  15.6  1.4  1.6  16.3 19.9  0.9  .080	-1.5   -1.3 -2.9 -0.1
11 Bradley Beal      SG  22  WAS  50  1554  15.6  .547  .336  .219  6.2  15.5  1.5  0.5  11.1 25.4  2.5  .076    1.0   -1.7 -0.8  0.5
12 Jerryd Bayless    SG  27  MIL  52  1505  12.5  .568	.529  .206  5.3  16.2  1.6  0.6  13.3 16.5  2.4  .076	 1.1   -2.1 -1.0  0.4
13 E'Twaun Moore     SG  26  CHI  56  1182  11.5  .553  .263  .096  5.5  11.9  1.4  1.0  11.8 15.9  1.8  .074	-1.1   -0.6 -1.7  0.1
14 Eric Gordon       SG  27  NOP  45  1481  13.6  .565  .533  .226  3.7  12.8  1.4  0.8  10.7 20.3  2.2  .072    1.7   -2.0 -0.3  0.6
15 Gerald Henderson  SG  28  POR  66  1290  13.0  .527  .268  .272  8.3  7.8   1.3  1.2	 10.0 20.0  1.9  .071	-2.0   -1.3 -3.3 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
16 Arron Afflalo     SG  30  NYK  65  2200  11.1  .534	.294  .168  6.1  9.8   0.5  0.3  8.8  18.1  2.5  .055	-0.5   -1.8 -2.3 -0.2
17 Kevin Martin      SG  32  TOT  50   995  11.4  .516	.313  .412  5.5  8.5   1.1  0.2  9.3  22.7  1.0  .050	-1.4   -3.4 -4.8 -0.7
18 Dion Waiters	     SG  24  OKC  71  1967  9.0   .490	.338  .204  5.1	 9.4   1.8  0.5  13.4 17.4  1.8  .044	-1.7   -0.6 -2.4 -0.2
19 Jordan Clarkson   SG  23  LAL  72  2315  14.5  .515	.277  .190  6.6  14.2  1.7  0.2  10.1 22.9  2.0  .041    0.6   -2.1 -1.5  0.3
20 Markel Brown      SG  24  BRK  54   772  10.9  .510	.398  .343  6.3  13.6  1.8  0.7  12.8 18.1  0.6  .040	-1.1   -1.9 -3.0 -0.2
21 Gerald Green      SG  30  MIA  62  1438  9.2   .480	.443  .158  6.0  5.7   1.1  1.0  7.5  19.6  1.1  .037	-1.8   -1.7 -3.5 -0.5
22 Sasha Vujacic     SG  31  NYK  55   745  9.4   .463	.509  .147  8.8  13.9  2.1  0.3  13.4 16.7  0.5  .030	-1.8   -0.7 -2.5 -0.1
23 Randy Foye        SG  32  TOT  74  1500  7.6   .458	.532  .151  5.5  14.3  1.2  1.3  14.0 15.7  0.4  .013	-2.2   -1.3 -3.4 -0.5
24 O.J. Mayo         SG  28  MIL  41  1090  7.7   .474	.505  .125  5.5  15.9  2.2  0.6  17.5 17.0 -0.1	-0.004	-1.9   -1.5 -3.4 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Mike Conley	     PG  28  MEM  56  1760  19.4  .538  .309  .329  5.3  32.9  2.0  0.8  9.5  22.6  5.4  .147    3.7   -1.9  1.7  1.7
02 D.J. Augustin     PG  28  TOT  56  1061  14.3  .582  .479  .371  4.6	 25.1  1.6  0.2  16.5 17.8  2.6  .120    1.3   -2.6 -1.3  0.2
03 Ramon Sessions    PG  29  WAS  75  1469  15.0  .556	.186  .498  7.0  19.3  1.4  0.3  13.6 21.7  2.9  .095	-0.9   -1.4 -2.3 -0.1
04 Brandon Jennings  PG  26  TOT  44   799  14.1  .495  .514  .269  6.3  28.8  1.6  0.6  13.8 20.4  1.5  .090    0.7   -1.7 -1.0  0.2
05 Rajon Rondo	     PG  29  SAC  70  2466  16.8  .504  .218  .189  9.2  47.9  2.7  0.3  25.0 18.8  4.4  .085    0.7    0.2  0.9  1.8
06 Donald Sloan      PG  28  BRK  54  1164  13.8  .540	.285  .325  7.9  29.0  1.3  0.2  18.2 15.9  1.7  .072	-0.4   -1.7 -2.1  0.0
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
07 Isaiah Canaan     PG  24  PHI  74  1880  10.9  .527  .671  .248  4.8  11.3  1.4  0.4  10.6 19.8  1.3  .034    0.1   -2.9 -2.8 -0.4
08 Ish Smith         PG  27  TOT  70  1993  15.3  .460	.161  .181  7.5  39.4  2.0  0.7  13.8 24.4  1.2  .028	-0.4   -1.0 -1.4  0.3
09 Ty Lawson         PG  28  TOT  59  1257  9.5   .485	.319  .256  4.3  23.2  1.9  0.4  19.8 14.9  0.6  .024	-2.7   -2.1 -4.8 -0.9
10 Norris Cole	     PG  27  NOP  45  1198  10.9  .465	.211  .134  7.0  22.1  1.5  0.3  12.8 21.7  0.0	-0.002	-2.3   -1.2 -3.5 -0.5
11 Greivis Vasquez   PG  29  MIL  17   374   8.8  .456	.482  .219  6.1  28.9  1.1  0.0  19.9 18.8 -0.1	-0.009	-2.3   -3.7 -6.0 -0.4
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
01 Kevin Durant      SF  27  OKC  67  2403  28.1  .634	.339  .359  12.6 24.0  1.3  2.6  13.5 30.4  13.5 .269	 6.8    1.0  7.8  6.0
02 Luol Deng         SF  30  MIA  66  2117  14.9  .545	.345  .267  10.3 8.4   1.6   1.0 8.3  17.4  5.6  .128	 1.1    0.5  1.6  1.9
03 Michael Beasley   SF  27  HOU  13   257  22.6  .572	.054  .209  14.6 6.8   1.5  2.6  9.5  30.0  0.6  .114	-1.4   -2.9 -4.3 -0.1
04 Harrison Barnes   SF  23  GSW  59  1812  12.0  .544	.316  .225  8.5  8.1   1.1  0.4  7.4  15.8  4.3  .113	 0.1   -0.5 -0.4  0.7
05 Evan Fournier     SF  23  ORL  71  2277  14.4  .579	.425  .249  4.9  12.7  1.9  0.1  10.8 19.7  5.0  .106	 1.9   -1.4  0.6  1.5
06 Solomon Hill      SF  24  IND  51   660  10.7  .499	.326  .243  10.0 9.6   1.9  1.2  11.1 12.0  1.4  .105	-2.0	1.3 -0.7  0.2
07 Kent Bazemore     SF  26  ATL  70  1935  12.9  .547	.416  .206  9.6  12.1  2.2  1.3  14.4 19.8  3.5  .088	-1.4    1.3 -0.1  0.9
08 Maurice Harkless  SF  22  POR  71  1263  12.6  .544	.353  .274  9.9  7.0   1.5  1.7  12.9 15.3  2.3  .086	-0.8    0.0 -0.9  0.4
09 Chase Budinger    SF  27  TOT  60   865  10.6  .506	.366  .223  8.9  9.6   1.7  0.8  13.1 14.3  1.4	 .075	-2.1    0.3 -1.7  0.1
Rk Player            Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   TRB% AST%  STL% BLK% TOV% USG%  WS   WS/48 ▾ OBPM  DBPM  BPM  VORP
10 Jeff Green        SF  29  TOT  72  2052  12.9  .512	.259  .265  8.5	 10.0  1.3  1.5  9.3  19.8  2.9  .069	-1.0   -0.7 -1.6  0.2
11 Garrett Temple    SF  29  WAS  73  1812  9.1   .518  .511  .246  6.0  9.7   1.7  0.7  9.4  13.9  2.5  .065	-1.0    0.0 -1.0  0.4
12 Lance Thomas      SF  27  NYK  59  1313  10.5  .557	.285  .312  5.5  6.4   0.9  0.4  11.6 16.9  1.7  .061	-1.1   -2.1 -3.2 -0.4
13 Jarell Eddie      SF  24  WAS  22    99  10.8  .492	.791  .093  8.0  3.0   1.0  0.8  2.2  20.3  0.1  .047	-1.3   -4.3 -5.6 -0.1
14 Cleanthony Early  SF  24  NYK  11	34  7.0   .583	.667  .000  3.2  4.4   1.5  2.2  14.3 9.3   0.0  .042	-2.8   -0.6 -3.3  0.0
15 Sergey Karasev    SF  22  BRK  38   366  8.9   .584	.515  .379  7.7  10.6  0.8  0.4  19.8 11.8  0.3  .040	-2.2   -1.8 -4.0 -0.2
16 P.J. Hairston     SF  23  TOT  62  1251  7.0   .473  .590  .158  7.2  4.5   1.2  0.7  8.7  16.2  0.7  .025	-2.6   -1.4 -3.9 -0.6

clearly it has to be evan turner as the favorite here. best defensive number combined with an offensive game that would positively blossom and flourish in a system that values interior passing and cutting.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

reub wrote:

Vmart wrote:Big names are going to be difficult to get. So I would stay away and look for player like Lin, Curry and Waiter. Those are obtainable players. Probably can get all three.

No! Those guys don't move the needle. I want a shooting guard that's a stud or as close as I can get to it.

Derozan
Batum
Fournier
Crabbe
Bazemore
Beal
Stephenson

Derozan isn't going to leave Toronto they can offer him the most money and best situation. The rest are not really needle movers. Some have history of injury or just aren't move the needle players. To me Beal is the best target but you would have to max him out and some are saying he has a chronic leg issue. Can't seem to stay on the court same with Batum who also is often injured. Stephenson never liked his game fizzled out in Charlotte you could say Lin replaced him very easily. Bazemore I'm not so sure of any Hawks players I just never thought to highly of him. Fournier not a needle mover. Crabbe wouldn't over pay for his services I don't think he is anything that is a game changer.

The reason I picked Lin, Curry and Waiters is because they hit the three. Waiters I feel would be a great addition to the backcourt he can score and plays decent defense. As for Curry he can shoot and he has the pedigree. Lin simply because he can perform on the MSG stage we know this. He give another dimension to the team as a off guard or PG.

From a Win Share perspective it's hard to say either Lin or Waiters is gonna move the needle per se.

Lin has a WS/48 of .082 and Waiters is .044. Neither is any better than some of the cheaper young options. People hate on Jennings but even with coming off the injury and switching teams he was at a WS/48 of .090. It's really tough to determine who would have the best impact for the buck.

Crabbe WS/48 was .098 and Tyler Johnson was .114. These young guys are more intriguing IMO.

Those aren't really good WS #s, though. The top teams are generally paying guys with WS48s of .090 to .110 only around $1-3 mil per year.

It's also true that some of the players we're talking about are not fully developed yet. You have to keep things in perspective. Besides who exactly would you suggest we get that has the kind of WS/48 that makes a huge impact? Who are these guys we can actually bring in realistically? In terms of available FA's there are very few players who fit what you would call good WS/48.

You've basically got DeRozan and Conley with any shot of being signed and it's not exactly very likely they'd come here either. So back in the real world we've got to bet on POTENTIAL to improve.

Bonn1997 wrote:It depends on the price for these players. However, it's striking how bad the options for a top player are besides Durant.

Earlier Mreinman made that thread about Win shares 48. How the average salary 4mil. Should compare to the average Win Shares 48 which is 100.

Is the average win shares per 48 average due to adding and dividing all Win Share 48 averages? Or is the average win share 48(100.) due to the frequency of players able to play at this level?

For example Steph Curry win share 48 is 318. Which means if 9 other players had an average of 75.7 Win shares 48. The average for all 10 would still be 100. Yet only 1 of them would actually hold a wins shares at 100. or higher. Out of all the players in the league how many actually produce at a 100. Win Shares 48 or higher?

Vmart wrote:Big names are going to be difficult to get. So I would stay away and look for player like Lin, Curry and Waiter. Those are obtainable players. Probably can get all three.

There will be 29 other teams looking to sign free agents as well and many of them going after the same guys we'll be going after.

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It depends on the price for these players. However, it's striking how bad the options for a top player are besides Durant.

Earlier Mreinman made that thread about Win shares 48. How the average salary 4mil. Should compare to the average Win Shares 48 which is 100.

Is the average win shares per 48 average due to adding and dividing all Win Share 48 averages? Or is the average win share 48(100.) due to the frequency of players able to play at this level?

For example Steph Curry win share 48 is 318. Which means if 9 other players had an average of 75.7 Win shares 48. The average for all 10 would still be 100. Yet only 1 of them would actually hold a wins shares at 100. or higher. Out of all the players in the league how many actually produce at a 100. Win Shares 48 or higher?

I just did a quick survey of the WS/48 according to Basketball Reference. Only 167 players this year were above .100 out of 476 players. I deducted guys who played less than 30 games, which amounted to 19 players with a WS/48 above .100. Only 14 players with at least 30 games played had a WS/48 above .200!!!

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_advanced.html

Thanks for that! I tried to ask that question earlier but never really got around to it. So players that perform at 100. aren't really the average but are at a premium.

What about players that played at least 20 mins a game? Or 30 mins a game?

nixluva wrote:

stopstandthere wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:To help get some kind of idea of what Horn was doing in PHX, here's a video breaking down his offense, which I would assume he'll use to some extent here in NY even if mixed with some Triangle.

I think Grant, Gallo and Wroten will be capable of doing a lot of this stuff. Now as for any upgrades this summer it's clear to me that great speed and handles are gonna be HUGE plusses for anyone Horn might want. Obviously a 3nD SG with speed and athletic ability. We've talked about guys like Crabbe, Bazemore and Fournier. They are guys I can see fitting this style.

Agreed. Bazemore, Fournier, or Crabbe. Must get one of those 3 players. Maybe Augustine, Vasquez, or Chalmers can share time with Grant at PG on a 1-year contract. Galloway, if resigned, can play mostly backup SG. Anything we get from Wroten is a bonus.

Well the thing about Wroten, if he's healthy, is that he's not a blend in guy. If he's on the floor he's gonna be pushing and making things happen. I'm curious to see what Horn can do for our guards in terms of developing them. A kid like Wroten has so much Physical talent. The Speed, handles and explosion is gonna be a plus in Horn's style of uptempo offense IMO. If the paint is open he's getting dunks! Believe me you want his speed pushing the ball and attacking the basket in the halfcourt.

I can see a kid like Wroten thriving in Horn's system as would Grant and Gallo IMO. All of them are at their best pushing the ball and attacking off Picks. Then if you add a Bazemore, Fournier or Crabbe type SG that seems like a great combination for how Horn likes to play.

Wroten and Grant can push the ball but Hornacek wants guys that can shoot the ball as well which as we know Wroten and Grant can't do, Grant is working with C.Jackson and got better with his shooting in his last few games but we definitely need 1 or 2 shooters in free agency.

I would suggest not to expect too much from Wroten. With reference to the past records in the last few season, he did not play many games. And he is a combo guard who cannot shoot on a reliable basis. Well, I hope he proves me wrong for sure.

I completely disagree with this notion that we should not expect much from Wroten. His shooting has been bad but if that was all he could do then that would be more of a problem. Fortunately he can do a lot of important things like pushing the ball, breaking down a defense and getting to the rim at will and he passes well enough. He's going to be able to work off screens, dribble handoffs and PnR and set up his teammates a LOT. He would give us another long and quick perimeter defender as well.

Wroten has to improve his 3pt and FT shooting. He barely ever takes midrange shots. He's either getting layups or taking 3's. He just has to get better shooting 3's and FT's. I'm not expecting miracles, but if he can make decent improvement I think he'll be a very positive addition.

I would not expect much out of wroten ... always better to lower expectations.

Wroten did not take mid range shots because he played for Philly who like houston, does not have that shot or allow that shot as part of their repertoire.

newyorknewyork wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It depends on the price for these players. However, it's striking how bad the options for a top player are besides Durant.

Earlier Mreinman made that thread about Win shares 48. How the average salary 4mil. Should compare to the average Win Shares 48 which is 100.

Is the average win shares per 48 average due to adding and dividing all Win Share 48 averages? Or is the average win share 48(100.) due to the frequency of players able to play at this level?

For example Steph Curry win share 48 is 318. Which means if 9 other players had an average of 75.7 Win shares 48. The average for all 10 would still be 100. Yet only 1 of them would actually hold a wins shares at 100. or higher. Out of all the players in the league how many actually produce at a 100. Win Shares 48 or higher?

I just did a quick survey of the WS/48 according to Basketball Reference. Only 167 players this year were above .100 out of 476 players. I deducted guys who played less than 30 games, which amounted to 19 players with a WS/48 above .100. Only 14 players with at least 30 games played had a WS/48 above .200!!!

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_advanced.html

Thanks for that! I tried to ask that question earlier but never really got around to it. So players that perform at 100. aren't really the average but are at a premium.

What about players that played at least 20 mins a game? Or 30 mins a game?

you can just take the data and sort it in excel and you can get all the data you want.

.100 is league average but obviously not for this past season.