ChuckBuck wrote:This is apropos

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/talkhoops/status/733093512103628800

We're such a battered fanbase for 43+ years that we're just happy to hire someone that isn't a complete schmuck hole like Rambis.

This really isn't a good coaching hire by any means.

Chuck, I appreciate you posting here but I'd ask that you add to the thread as appropriate. This isn't it. If you have something to add to the discussion at hand, please do. Thanks.

Phil played in the NBA and has spoken often of his mentor Red Holzman.
Phil got the triangle from Tex and Bach who were already on BUlls staff. He accepted it, humbled to learn, and mastered it.
Cleamons, Rambis, Luke, Kerr, Fish all played the game in the NBA. ALl but cleamons played for Phil.
Phil has long admired Hornacek and wanted him on the bulls. Hornacek has used Sloan as his influence and for his style. Phil might admire Sloan as well.
Phil understands the job he did in PHX and his dimise.

The rest we can only speculate about Blatt and Vogel. They might have wanted more autonomy and that might have turned off Phil. Not that its a bad thing, its just not for him and the knicks at this time.
Phil might think that players respect former NBA players and they have more cred than career coach's. That's not to say that's a bad thing, its just phil and his perspective. Its how he came up and understands things.

The rest we will have to wait until we learn more "Facts" than just conjecture.

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:This is apropos

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/talkhoops/status/733093512103628800

We're such a battered fanbase for 43+ years that we're just happy to hire someone that isn't a complete schmuck hole like
This really isn't a good coaching hire by any means.

How do you know this isn't a good coach? When he had a little talent he won games. Until the Sun made a slew of bad moves and they had injuries to key players. If Phil
Picked him over Blatt and Vogel then he must have impressed Phil on some level. This was a HUGE decision for Phil. There won't be another coach anytime soon. He has to get this one right. I think that's why he took his time.

It seems like a knee jerk hire from the negative backlash of him going on vacay instead of conducting a hardcore coaching search from day 1.

Vogel would've been the best hire(not named Thibs). He actually worked with Phil and has more experience working with players than Blatt and anyone else including deep playoff runs with Indy. Blatt would be a good consolation prize.

People are questioning this hire because it truly goes against everything Phil has been preaching for the last 3 years. Phil might as well pen a new book on this sudden pivot in philosophy "How I caved to the New York pressure but still made $60m in the process".

People see what they want to see. Does it go against the grain of what Phil preached or against the grain of what the idiot NY media has wrongly inferred from what little Phil does say publicly? People have whole threads full if arguments based on imaginary speech from Phil.

Nalod wrote:Screaming A Smith was on Mke and Mike and he did not slam Phil for the hire, but thought Mark Jax would be a better choice. When asked why, he said "Fans want to identify with the coach and Mark Jax is from NY and can do that", also "he did a good job with GSW".

No thought about philiosphy, His homophobic attitude and problems in GSW with management that led to his firing. Media likes to paint Thibs as the best coach available, but is every coach and their skill set transferable to each situation? Management, structure, ownership, and roster all factor in. In Minny, the owner is very involved. Here, MSG is a large company and the owner is not. Thibs knows who he is and perhaps his intensity and controlling nature might work with some organizations, but not others. Why go to one that it won't?

Media took Sean Marks comments that his hire of Atkinson was to be part of a "Partnership" type style. The media grabbed that as a dig at phil. The reality is Nets are in a very difficult rebuilding phase with a rookie GM who came out of the Spurs school of management and is also giving Atkinson lots of rope to grow into the job. Knicks handed the reigns to the "cult of personality" (Phil) and empowered him to rebuild from the ground up. Is that a dig? Phil has DIFFERENT set of tools and credentials to do the job than Sean Marks. Media Conjecture.

When I read that article I found the partnership line and subsequent dig extrapolate very funny. Phil says "Simpatico" and everyone makes fun of him and yet that is exactly the same thing the nets "Partnership" angle is going for. It's hilarious at how dumb these writers are and think we are.

ChuckBuck wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:This is apropos

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/talkhoops/status/733093512103628800

We're such a battered fanbase for 43+ years that we're just happy to hire someone that isn't a complete schmuck hole like
This really isn't a good coaching hire by any means.

How do you know this isn't a good coach? When he had a little talent he won games. Until the Sun made a slew of bad moves and they had injuries to key players. If Phil
Picked him over Blatt and Vogel then he must have impressed Phil on some level. This was a HUGE decision for Phil. There won't be another coach anytime soon. He has to get this one right. I think that's why he took his time.

It seems like a knee jerk hire from the negative backlash of him going on vacay instead of conducting a hardcore coaching search from day 1.

Vogel would've been the best hire(not named Thibs). He actually worked with Phil and has more experience working with players than Blatt and anyone else including deep playoff runs with Indy. Blatt would be a good consolation prize.

People are questioning this hire because it truly goes against everything Phil has been preaching for the last 3 years. Phil might as well pen a new book on this sudden pivot in philosophy "How I caved to the New York pressure but still made $60m in the process".

People see what they want to see. Does it go against the grain of what Phil preached or against the grain of what the idiot NY media has wrongly inferred from what little Phil does say publicly? People have whole threads full if arguments based on imaginary speech from Phil.

Imaginary speech? Didn't Phil run a full on hands on triangle clinic right after the season ended?

Seems like a waste of time now that Horny's hired, no?

The deal isn't even official yet and there hasn't been a press conference. So we don't know what they plan to do. We don't know if Jeff is going to ditch the Triangle, run it in full or mix it with some of his own stuff.

EwingsGlass wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:This is apropos

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/talkhoops/status/733093512103628800

We're such a battered fanbase for 43+ years that we're just happy to hire someone that isn't a complete schmuck hole like
This really isn't a good coaching hire by any means.

How do you know this isn't a good coach? When he had a little talent he won games. Until the Sun made a slew of bad moves and they had injuries to key players. If Phil
Picked him over Blatt and Vogel then he must have impressed Phil on some level. This was a HUGE decision for Phil. There won't be another coach anytime soon. He has to get this one right. I think that's why he took his time.

It seems like a knee jerk hire from the negative backlash of him going on vacay instead of conducting a hardcore coaching search from day 1.

Vogel would've been the best hire(not named Thibs). He actually worked with Phil and has more experience working with players than Blatt and anyone else including deep playoff runs with Indy. Blatt would be a good consolation prize.

People are questioning this hire because it truly goes against everything Phil has been preaching for the last 3 years. Phil might as well pen a new book on this sudden pivot in philosophy "How I caved to the New York pressure but still made $60m in the process".

People see what they want to see. Does it go against the grain of what Phil preached or against the grain of what the idiot NY media has wrongly inferred from what little Phil does say publicly? People have whole threads full if arguments based on imaginary speech from Phil.

Imaginary speech? Didn't Phil run a full on hands on triangle clinic right after the season ended?

Seems like a waste of time now that Horny's hired, no?

The deal isn't even official yet and there hasn't been a press conference. So we don't know what they plan to do. We don't know if Jeff is going to ditch the Triangle, run it in full or mix it with some of his own stuff.

I like this quote from the Berman article:

“Oh, yeah. We gotta get rid of that long 2,’’ Hornacek said. “I’m not opposed to the middle jumper, in that 15- or 16-foot range. … If you can shoot 15-footers and shoot 52 percent, OK, you’re beating the average. You can’t totally discount those shots.” - Hornacek

I think those 15 footers are still suspect though. He's moving in the right direction. Points per possession mean more to me than FG%. It is really TS% not FG% that should be looked at.

nixluva wrote:The deal isn't even official yet and there hasn't been a press conference.
So we don't know what they plan to do. We don't know if Jeff is going to
ditch the Triangle, run it in full or mix it with some of his own stuff.

I hear what you're saying . . . but this doesn't look good to me.

Of course we'll wait and see what happens (what else can we do . . .)
but this seems a pretty unlikely scenario in which to continue adopting
Triangle Culture.

I guess it's conceivable that Hornacek has had a conversion experience
of some kind after talking to Jackson and that he'll be born again Triangle.

That would be . . . great.

Seems sort of unlikely, though -- I gotta say.

I guess the bottom line is: what happens to Rambis (?)

I'm depressed about it . . .

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:This is apropos

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/talkhoops/status/733093512103628800

We're such a battered fanbase for 43+ years that we're just happy to hire someone that isn't a complete schmuck hole like
This really isn't a good coaching hire by any means.

How do you know this isn't a good coach? When he had a little talent he won games. Until the Sun made a slew of bad moves and they had injuries to key players. If Phil
Picked him over Blatt and Vogel then he must have impressed Phil on some level. This was a HUGE decision for Phil. There won't be another coach anytime soon. He has to get this one right. I think that's why he took his time.

It seems like a knee jerk hire from the negative backlash of him going on vacay instead of conducting a hardcore coaching search from day 1.

Vogel would've been the best hire(not named Thibs). He actually worked with Phil and has more experience working with players than Blatt and anyone else including deep playoff runs with Indy. Blatt would be a good consolation prize.

People are questioning this hire because it truly goes against everything Phil has been preaching for the last 3 years. Phil might as well pen a new book on this sudden pivot in philosophy "How I caved to the New York pressure but still made $60m in the process".

People see what they want to see. Does it go against the grain of what Phil preached or against the grain of what the idiot NY media has wrongly inferred from what little Phil does say publicly? People have whole threads full if arguments based on imaginary speech from Phil.

Imaginary speech? Didn't Phil run a full on hands on triangle clinic right after the season ended?

Seems like a waste of time now that Horny's hired, no?

The deal isn't even official yet and there hasn't been a press conference. So we don't know what they plan to do. We don't know if Jeff is going to ditch the Triangle, run it in full or mix it with some of his own stuff.

I like this quote from the Berman article:

“Oh, yeah. We gotta get rid of that long 2,’’ Hornacek said. “I’m not opposed to the middle jumper, in that 15- or 16-foot range. … If you can shoot 15-footers and shoot 52 percent, OK, you’re beating the average. You can’t totally discount those shots.” - Hornacek

I think those 15 footers are still suspect though. He's moving in the right direction. Points per possession mean more to me than FG%. It is really TS% not FG% that should be looked at.

FG% still means something important. PPP and TS% don't factor in rebounds which favor the defense at a rate of 3-1. So shooting 20-50 from 3 is not the same as shooting 30-50 from 2, because by missing 10 more shots you are handing the other team 7 more possessions. Your TS% is the same and your PPP is the same, but by missing those 10 extra shots your handing the opposition the ball. Dig? FG% is just another number but it still means something.

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Phoenix is where we can trace Hornacek’s intersection with Jackson, as it relates to the triangle offense that Hornacek may or may not be interested in running in New York.

In 1988, Colangelo rehired Cotton Fitzsimmons to coach a Suns team that featured Tom Chambers, Kevin Johnson, Eddie Johnson and even included a rookie guard named Steve Kerr. Fitzsimmons had also coached the Suns in their third and fourth years of existence, replacing Colangelo on the bench for the 1970-71 season.

“And guess which offense we ran way back then?” Colangelo said. “We ran the triangle.”

Fitzsimmons, he explained, had been an assistant in the mid-to-late 1960s (and head coach successor) at Kansas State to Tex Winter, widely considered to be the triangle offense architect and later Jackson’s mentor when they both were assistants to Doug Collins with the Bulls in Chicago.

Using Fitzsimmons’s triangle, the Suns rose in the West with 48- and 49-win seasons.

“We had the right personnel for it, especially a good passing center in Neal Walk and a really smart, physical power forward in Paul Silas,” Colangelo said. “That’s the key, the right personnel. I mean, if you have a Michael Jordan and a Scottie Pippen, it’s a great offense.”

Sorry, but I don't follow that.

Could you explain to me (like to a 5 year old . . .) why this should
make me feel better about the future of the Triangle in NYC (?)

Thanks . . .

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:Jeff Hornacek played in the Triangle for 4 years in PHX under Cotton Fitzsimmons.
Colangelo hired Cotton so he was just explaining that they ran the Triangle.

Okay . . . maybe there's hope -- thanks (!).

There's also this:

The Suns struggled in Hornacek's first two seasons, but after hiring Cotton
Fitzsimmons as coach and acquiring free agent Tom Chambers, the Suns went
from 28 wins in 1987–88 to 55 in 1988–89.

And also this:

1989-90 Phoenix Suns Roster:

Coach: Cotton Fitzsimmons (54-28)

14 Jeff Hornacek SG
31 Kurt Rambis PF <=======

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:Jeff Hornacek played in the Triangle for 4 years in PHX under Cotton Fitzsimmons.
Colangelo hired Cotton so he was just explaining that they ran the Triangle.

Okay . . . maybe there's hope -- thanks (!).

There's also this:

The Suns struggled in Hornacek's first two seasons, but after hiring Cotton
Fitzsimmons as coach and acquiring free agent Tom Chambers, the Suns went
from 28 wins in 1987–88 to 55 in 1988–89.

And also this:

1989-90 Phoenix Suns Roster:

Coach: Cotton Fitzsimmons (54-28)

14 Jeff Hornacek SG
31 Kurt Rambis PF <=======

I went and watched a bunch of Old Suns games and they definitely ran Triangle but they ran it more like the Spurs and Thibs Bulls did. It had the overload on one side but they focused on the Pinch post side with KJ and Chambers etc. The other guys would move to open spots as the play progressed and the defense was looking to help. They didn't focus on the Side Triangle side of the floor as much, which just underscores my point about the offense being flexible. You can focus on whatever you want to feature.