djsunyc wrote:it's a fantastic trade, i don't know what you all are talking about.

ujiri got us 4 first round picks in the next 2 drafts. he's doing aight.

the worst move for you guys wasn't this one - it was for passing on the lowry deal. lowry is a built winner - he wills his teams and puts it all on the court. at the time he had this bad rep with coaches but as you can see, it worked out - and if ujiri got to him, then phil would've also. lowry + melo would've been a very strong 1/2 punch and would've put the knicks in a really good position to make major noise. but phil doesn't like scoring pg's - which is a bit baffling considering the landscape of the nba.

Lowrey had some authority issues and was not the same dude he is now. With all things the same, Im not sure how he would have handled the trade.
He matured, and with the right situation its all good.
At the same time, he is a talent, but enough to have moved the dial enough? If so, no KP as the Tank might not have been as deep.

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:So i just saw that the Knicks don't have any of their own 2nd round picks until 2022 and was wondering if anyone knows if that is true?? We have the Rockets 2017 2nd rounder and Rockets, Cavs 2019 2nd rounders but none of our own until 2022. WTF

Phil has been able to add some picks in each draft. This hasn't really held him back at all. Having all of our 1st rd picks is more important.

djsunyc wrote:it's a fantastic trade, i don't know what you all are talking about.

ujiri got us 4 first round picks in the next 2 drafts. he's doing aight.

the worst move for you guys wasn't this one - it was for passing on the lowry deal. lowry is a built winner - he wills his teams and puts it all on the court. at the time he had this bad rep with coaches but as you can see, it worked out - and if ujiri got to him, then phil would've also. lowry + melo would've been a very strong 1/2 punch and would've put the knicks in a really good position to make major noise. but phil doesn't like scoring pg's - which is a bit baffling considering the landscape of the nba.

Disagree strongly. Lowry was a FA. NO WAY can you trade a #1 pick for a free agent. Lowry ended up staying with Toronto for a reasonable deal but there were no guarantees that he would have stayed with NY at the same price. NY would be held hostage for whatever Lowry wanted or lose him and the #1 pick and get nothing in return. Phil wan't in charge at the time but might have consulted on the deal. Way too much risk in that trade.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:With that said Toronto isn't a serious contender and that Toronto vs Miami series shows how watered down the East is.

well they are in better shape than us plus they have our lottery pick

Yes they are/do. We will see what it leads to in a couple of yrs.

EnySpree wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:This makes me so depressed. Phucking Bargs.

Truthfully who are you picking at #9 that would be an impact player? Rotation player possible starter? Nobody jumps out at me after #8 on the draft boards.

I think Phil could buy a pick in this draft. I actually like allot of the guys projected to go in the second round.

If you argue that draft picks are the only way to get special players, you have to tell me who these players are at #9.Valentine? Meh...

That's all beside the point. We gave away a lotto pick for basically a Bargs rental. That's just awful. There is no way you can rationalize this as not a horrible move, regardless of the player we would hypothetically take at 9 didn't turn out to be an "impact player".

Where did I ever say draft picks as the only way to get special players? Nobody can ever say before a draft who is going to be a certain slot that will turn out to be a star, a starter, etc. But the thing is that doesn't matter. The draft is a huge crapshoot. But again, this is all beside the point. Lotto picks represent a way to stock your team with potential high talent players on rookie scale contracts who you then have locked up for long periods of time IF you hit on a star.

Look at last year, we got KP a possible franchise altering talent. That's exactly why you don't trade lotto picks, unprotected picks unless you are getting back veteran talent that can actually contribute. The Raptors were on the verge of CUTTING Bargs. And we gave them a lotto pick. Smdh. Sorry but there is no way this move can be pooh pooh'd with "the 9 pick might not get you a rotation player". Who cares? I'd rather have the pick now than not have it.

EnySpree wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:This makes me so depressed. Phucking Bargs.

Truthfully who are you picking at #9 that would be an impact player? Rotation player possible starter? Nobody jumps out at me after #8 on the draft boards.

I think Phil could buy a pick in this draft. I actually like allot of the guys projected to go in the second round.

If you argue that draft picks are the only way to get special players, you have to tell me who these players are at #9.Valentine? Meh...

Seeing as Bargs doesn't qualify as a rotation player either, I would rather take my changes with the draft.

ChuckBuck wrote:This is an alarming pattern though. Not only do we not protect our picks, Pre-Phil Jax, but we offer monster $124Mill contracts with NO TRADE CLAUSE kickers. That in itself, can do MAJOR HARM to a franchise that's supposed to be rebuilding. Melo, though a top 30-40 player still at 32, doesn't make sense to a franchise looking two steps forward and far away from truly competing. His $124Mill baggage could've easily fetched 1 or 2 draft picks, but that's water under the bridge now.

It's not just a DOLAN INTERVENING getting his grubby hands on the thing, it's still going on with Phil at the helm. This is bigger than Dolan, Mills, or Jax, or Grunwald, or Grunfeld, Tapscott, or Checketts.

We keep committing the cardinal sin of getting rid of our youth(Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Trevor Ariza), trading our young vets or picks for washed up vets(Camby, Mark Jackson, Nene for McDyess and Frank Williams), or instead of letting our players contracts run out, we trade them for utter garbage(Chandler, Felton for Dalembert, Jose) or Re-up them to insane amounts(Houston and Melo).

This is the Knicks franchise disease. It's still going on. Our only hope is Phil can leave the franchise untouched with no other damaging contracts or picks traded, before he ultimately leaves town in the next year or so.

Listen to JR Smith, and he gives you some insight to what I've been saying for years. He compares the knick fans and cleveland fans. Knick fans (which includes the NY media) continues to put pressure on it self, because it's the mecca. And as the Mecca of basketball, we are suppose to have a great team every year. Cleveland (or most NBA cities) were never considered the Mecca of basketball, so they don't have the same pressure. Because of this "self-inflicted" pressure of being the best and keeping that title of the Mecca of basketball, we've always tried to make those risky championship moves. NYers in general are impatient. With that impatience, comes erratic moves and trades.

Phil Jackson (so far) comes from a different culture. Yes he won a championship or two in the 70's in NYC.....but his culture has been re shaped in Chicago and LA. And one thing is for sure, you can't build a championship team in one year, without having a solid foundation to build on. Yes, you can do what Boston and Miami did, but you need at least 3 guys in the top 5-10 players in the world to do it. The other option is to build it from the ground up..and get lucky with a solid KP / Jordan / Kobe pick to build around.

I'm not a phil fan at all.....Never thought he deserved the credit he got as a coach.....So I definitely don't respect him as a rookie GM. But with that said, he's probably the best we've had in a long time and his philosophy of building a solid foundation first seems like a better idea than what we've done in the past, as you mentioned (trading our future). Hopefully by now, we as knick fans and knick media have grown to be more patient, and stop these mega trades that mortgages our future for NBA has beens. I was also against the Melo trade because I was afraid of being in the situation we are in now. But moving forward, it's always a good feeling to have a star player that wants to be here and wants to mentor our young star (KP).

Lets hope we finally learned from our past......And not repeat them. There's more than one way to build a championship team.

blkexec wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:This is an alarming pattern though. Not only do we not protect our picks, Pre-Phil Jax, but we offer monster $124Mill contracts with NO TRADE CLAUSE kickers. That in itself, can do MAJOR HARM to a franchise that's supposed to be rebuilding. Melo, though a top 30-40 player still at 32, doesn't make sense to a franchise looking two steps forward and far away from truly competing. His $124Mill baggage could've easily fetched 1 or 2 draft picks, but that's water under the bridge now.

It's not just a DOLAN INTERVENING getting his grubby hands on the thing, it's still going on with Phil at the helm. This is bigger than Dolan, Mills, or Jax, or Grunwald, or Grunfeld, Tapscott, or Checketts.

We keep committing the cardinal sin of getting rid of our youth(Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Trevor Ariza), trading our young vets or picks for washed up vets(Camby, Mark Jackson, Nene for McDyess and Frank Williams), or instead of letting our players contracts run out, we trade them for utter garbage(Chandler, Felton for Dalembert, Jose) or Re-up them to insane amounts(Houston and Melo).

This is the Knicks franchise disease. It's still going on. Our only hope is Phil can leave the franchise untouched with no other damaging contracts or picks traded, before he ultimately leaves town in the next year or so.

Listen to JR Smith, and he gives you some insight to what I've been saying for years. He compares the knick fans and cleveland fans. Knick fans (which includes the NY media) continues to put pressure on it self, because it's the mecca. And as the Mecca of basketball, we are suppose to have a great team every year. Cleveland (or most NBA cities) were never considered the Mecca of basketball, so they don't have the same pressure. Because of this "self-inflicted" pressure of being the best and keeping that title of the Mecca of basketball, we've always tried to make those risky championship moves. NYers in general are impatient. With that impatience, comes erratic moves and trades.

Phil Jackson (so far) comes from a different culture. Yes he won a championship or two in the 70's in NYC.....but his culture has been re shaped in Chicago and LA. And one thing is for sure, you can't build a championship team in one year, without having a solid foundation to build on. Yes, you can do what Boston and Miami did, but you need at least 3 guys in the top 5-10 players in the world to do it. The other option is to build it from the ground up..and get lucky with a solid KP / Jordan / Kobe pick to build around.

I'm not a phil fan at all.....Never thought he deserved the credit he got as a coach.....So I definitely don't respect him as a rookie GM. But with that said, he's probably the best we've had in a long time and his philosophy of building a solid foundation first seems like a better idea than what we've done in the past, as you mentioned (trading our future). Hopefully by now, we as knick fans and knick media have grown to be more patient, and stop these mega trades that mortgages our future for NBA has beens. I was also against the Melo trade because I was afraid of being in the situation we are in now. But moving forward, it's always a good feeling to have a star player that wants to be here and wants to mentor our young star (KP).

Lets hope we finally learned from our past......And not repeat them. There's more than one way to build a championship team.

Boston had a base of Pierce, and the assets to get Ray and KG yet still had a draft pick to get Rondo and Big baby. They had a nice base. Miami had wade, some picks and a slew of cap space. They had Beas, but that was a sort of wasted pick. They Tanked to get that cap space. Tanking is a financial commitment and a leap of faith. DId Riles know he could get Lebron? Maybe, but he didn't have a shot until he had the cap room to get him and Bosh. It took planning. ALso they had to have enough role players to make them competitive.

Knicks cupboard was quite bare but we did have that pick and Melo.

SupremeCommander wrote:Willy Hernangomez has kind of softened this blow for me. There would be an argument to take him nine had we kept the pick.

you think that his stock would be up to #9??

I don't think so ... maybe into the late 20's at best.