Phil has picked the system and is picking talent based on that system up front. It's backwards and it is also limiting the talent he'll go after. And we've already seen it limit his coaching search.

"A smart general manager would see his personnel and coaching options and pick the people and system that would give the team the best chance to win. Jackson has picked his system and said to hell with everything else. Knicks fans are the ones who are going to pay the price for his stubbornness."

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

adjust to the roster? OK.. who's skill set was underutilized last year? Lopez had an excellent year and the longer he played in the triangle the better he looked. 2nd half of the year Lopez 12ppg, 9rebs, 2blocks and .554 FG%, Melo had a career high in assists and let the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. Derrick Williams may have resurrected his career. KP had a unicorn rookie season. I mean who are these guys your talking about? Maybe we should bring back Isiah... folks had more patience with him.

When Phil traded away the future I will start the questions. I have yet to see him trading picks to get win now player to appease Melo. Last I checked we have KP

That's the scary thing, Fish.

Phil brought in guys who were supposed to be Triangle guys. We were told heading into the season that the sky was the limit for that roster, now that they finally had Triangle guys. Now we're hearing again that the problem is that we don't have Triangle pieces.

I am fine with a rebuild, and admittedly this season sucks more because we don't have a 2016 pick which is not Phil's fault... but the logic behind the building, or rather lack of logic but singleminded approach to building this team makes me think it will never work.

Phil is not trying to build a good team. He's trying to build a team that will prove the Triangle is his legacy. Sure, if he's right, we win and that's great. But what if the Triangle isn't the answer for Melo and KP? Are we sacrificing the last years of Melo's prime and KP's development to prove something that maybe can't be proved?

Was it Kobe or the Triangle? Was it MJ or the Triangle? Phil is looking to go down swinging and clinging (haHA) to the idea that the Triangle is the one true path through not just the NBA, but life in general.

And frankly, his blaming everyone else over and over again and telling us all how stupid we are for not getting it... it's a little tired. I've watched a lot of basketball and I see much better, more efficient, responsive offensive systems on other teams.

But what if the Triangle isn't the answer for Melo and KP? Are we sacrificing the last years of Melo's prime and KP's development to prove something that maybe can't be proved?

crzymdups wrote:This is my main issue with the team. People here keep bringing up how it took the Warriors 4-5 years to build around Steph. Agree. You know what they did? They amassed talent and then built the best system for that team.

Phil has picked the system and is picking talent based on that system up front. It's backwards and it is also limiting the talent he'll go after. And we've already seen it limit his coaching search.

"A smart general manager would see his personnel and coaching options and pick the people and system that would give the team the best chance to win. Jackson has picked his system and said to hell with everything else. Knicks fans are the ones who are going to pay the price for his stubbornness."

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

adjust to the roster? OK.. who's skill set was underutilized last year? Lopez had an excellent year and the longer he played in the triangle the better he looked. 2nd half of the year Lopez 12ppg, 9rebs, 2blocks and .554 FG%, Melo had a career high in assists and let the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. Derrick Williams may have resurrected his career. KP had a unicorn rookie season. I mean who are these guys your talking about? Maybe we should bring back Isiah... folks had more patience with him.

When Phil traded away the future I will start the questions. I have yet to see him trading picks to get win now player to appease Melo. Last I checked we have KP

This. Afflalo didn't work out but he didn't cost the Knicks Will Barton, Thomas Robinson and a first rounder. Lopez, KP, and Grant seem like they are going to be fixtures in the Knicks rotation for the next few years. Phil needs to fix the back court.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

adjust to the roster? OK.. who's skill set was underutilized last year? Lopez had an excellent year and the longer he played in the triangle the better he looked. 2nd half of the year Lopez 12ppg, 9rebs, 2blocks and .554 FG%, Melo had a career high in assists and let the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. Derrick Williams may have resurrected his career. KP had a unicorn rookie season. I mean who are these guys your talking about? Maybe we should bring back Isiah... folks had more patience with him.

When Phil traded away the future I will start the questions. I have yet to see him trading picks to get win now player to appease Melo. Last I checked we have KP

That's the scary thing, Fish.

Phil brought in guys who were supposed to be Triangle guys. We were told heading into the season that the sky was the limit for that roster, now that they finally had Triangle guys. Now we're hearing again that the problem is that we don't have Triangle pieces.

I am fine with a rebuild, and admittedly this season sucks more because we don't have a 2016 pick which is not Phil's fault... but the logic behind the building, or rather lack of logic but singleminded approach to building this team makes me think it will never work.

Phil is not trying to build a good team. He's trying to build a team that will prove the Triangle is his legacy. Sure, if he's right, we win and that's great. But what if the Triangle isn't the answer for Melo and KP? Are we sacrificing the last years of Melo's prime and KP's development to prove something that maybe can't be proved?

Was it Kobe or the Triangle? Was it MJ or the Triangle? Phil is looking to go down swinging and clinging (haHA) to the idea that the Triangle is the one true path through not just the NBA, but life in general.

And frankly, his blaming everyone else over and over again and telling us all how stupid we are for not getting it... it's a little tired. I've watched a lot of basketball and I see much better, more efficient, responsive offensive systems on other teams.

with these players? With the Knicks? I don't tell anyone they are stupid for not getting it. The closest I would come to that is calling out someone for making broad sweeping conclusions with limited information which we are all working with. The one strong retort I will give your post is this: When did you become mreinman? Phil Jackson doesn't need to prove anything. He's got more rings than anyone. The player who hated him the most (Kobe) has been very vocal and point blank said he doesn't have titles without Phil. That notion is insane.. I suggests banishing it as it has no place in generating any kind of discussion. Phil's commitment to the triangle is because of results. Its because that system won him 11 rings with 3 different sets of players. Could it be that simple? Could it?

But what if the Triangle isn't the answer for Melo and KP? Are we sacrificing the last years of Melo's prime and KP's development to prove something that maybe can't be proved?

Sure... Phil can fail. Anyone can. Im ok with giving this guy and his system or whatever he brings a full chance. Who's next after Phil? 2 years is enough to rebuild a decade long broken franchise?

The timing is maybe unfair. Perhaps I should give it more time. But I have been watching this Triangle for two full seasons and it has been dire. The Fisher thing makes it all seem much worse somehow.

Also, if the system is so good, why has it failed completely EVERYWHERE else? Phil's coaching tree is barren. Maybe only he can coach it? But he's not coaching here.

You can say all the guys below didn't have players, not fair no talent... but look at Pat Riley's coaching tree sometime. Jeff Van Gundy, Tom Thibeau, Steve Clifford, Erik Spolestra, Doc Rivers, Stan Van Gundy... I mean... come on.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

adjust to the roster? OK.. who's skill set was underutilized last year? Lopez had an excellent year and the longer he played in the triangle the better he looked. 2nd half of the year Lopez 12ppg, 9rebs, 2blocks and .554 FG%, Melo had a career high in assists and let the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. Derrick Williams may have resurrected his career. KP had a unicorn rookie season. I mean who are these guys your talking about? Maybe we should bring back Isiah... folks had more patience with him.

When Phil traded away the future I will start the questions. I have yet to see him trading picks to get win now player to appease Melo. Last I checked we have KP

That's the scary thing, Fish.

Phil brought in guys who were supposed to be Triangle guys. We were told heading into the season that the sky was the limit for that roster, now that they finally had Triangle guys. Now we're hearing again that the problem is that we don't have Triangle pieces.

I am fine with a rebuild, and admittedly this season sucks more because we don't have a 2016 pick which is not Phil's fault... but the logic behind the building, or rather lack of logic but singleminded approach to building this team makes me think it will never work.

Phil is not trying to build a good team. He's trying to build a team that will prove the Triangle is his legacy. Sure, if he's right, we win and that's great. But what if the Triangle isn't the answer for Melo and KP? Are we sacrificing the last years of Melo's prime and KP's development to prove something that maybe can't be proved?

Was it Kobe or the Triangle? Was it MJ or the Triangle? Phil is looking to go down swinging and clinging (haHA) to the idea that the Triangle is the one true path through not just the NBA, but life in general.

And frankly, his blaming everyone else over and over again and telling us all how stupid we are for not getting it... it's a little tired. I've watched a lot of basketball and I see much better, more efficient, responsive offensive systems on other teams.

with these players? With the Knicks? I don't tell anyone they are stupid for not getting it. The closest I would come to that is calling out someone for making broad sweeping conclusions with limited information which we are all working with. The one strong retort I will give your post is this: When did you become mreinman? Phil Jackson doesn't need to prove anything. He's got more rings than anyone. The player who hated him the most (Kobe) has been very vocal and point blank said he doesn't have titles without Phil. That notion is insane.. I suggests banishing it as it has no place in generating any kind of discussion. Phil's commitment to the triangle is because of results. Its because that system won him 11 rings with 3 different sets of players. Could it be that simple? Could it?

But what if the Triangle isn't the answer for Melo and KP? Are we sacrificing the last years of Melo's prime and KP's development to prove something that maybe can't be proved?

Sure... Phil can fail. Anyone can. Im ok with giving this guy and his system or whatever he brings a full chance. Who's next after Phil? 2 years is enough to rebuild a decade long broken franchise?

The timing is maybe unfair. Perhaps I should give it more time. But I have been watching this Triangle for two full seasons and it has been dire. The Fisher thing makes it all seem much worse somehow.

Also, if the system is so good, why has it failed completely EVERYWHERE else? Phil's coaching tree is barren. Maybe only he can coach it? But he's not coaching here.

You can say all the guys below didn't have players, not fair no talent... but look at Pat Riley's coaching tree sometime. Jeff Van Gundy, Tom Thibeau, Steve Clifford, Erik Spolestra, Doc Rivers, Stan Van Gundy... I mean... come on.

but does pat the rat have 11 rings? BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

Knicks have spent the past 20 years chasing systems - Don Nelson, MDA, now Phil.

Only time we had success after Riley left was when we hired his top lieutenant, JVG.

It's not really that complicated.

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basketball is actually a simple game. It's real simple. Defend the ball, protect the rim, move the ball to get open shots. Riley's simple system? He adapts for his talent. He gets talent. He knows getting the talent is paramount and he's damn good at that. Showtime Lakers, Ewing and Oak Knicks, Shaq, Wade, and Bron's Heat.

Knicks have spent the past 20 years chasing systems - Don Nelson, MDA, now Phil.

Only time we had success after Riley left was when we hired his top lieutenant, JVG.

It's not really that complicated.

the knicks don't have enough talent to adapt to yet. when they get the requisite level of talent they will be better than average and then we can start thinking about adapting to that talent. and then that talent ought to be fundamentally sound as well, as in possessing the requisite skills.

that will take time and require patience. you can't undo 15 years of recklessness and chaos in two seasons.

This

martin wrote:

dk7th wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Basketball is actually a simple game. It's real simple. Defend the ball, protect the rim, move the ball to get open shots. Riley's simple system? He adapts for his talent. He gets talent. He knows getting the talent is paramount and he's damn good at that. Showtime Lakers, Ewing and Oak Knicks, Shaq, Wade, and Bron's Heat.

Knicks have spent the past 20 years chasing systems - Don Nelson, MDA, now Phil.

Only time we had success after Riley left was when we hired his top lieutenant, JVG.

It's not really that complicated.

the knicks don't have enough talent to adapt to yet. when they get the requisite level of talent they will be better than average and then we can start thinking about adapting to that talent. and then that talent ought to be fundamentally sound as well, as in possessing the requisite skills.

that will take time and require patience. you can't undo 15 years of recklessness and chaos in two seasons.

This

Only they aren't planning to adapt to their talent. They're planning to make their talent adapt to their system.