StarksEwing1 wrote:

callmened wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I wonder if Melo would feel better just with the hiring of a better coach before the draft. Walton or Thibs would at least give the appearance that the Knicks are moving forward and I think both guys would make ny more attractive for free agents. I would start there if I was in charge. Thibs and Melo have a mutual fondness for each other and both guys are among the best at their craft. I think Melo is gone if Rambis is the guy.

i really dont care what melo thinks. im tired of catering to him

Absolutely This. Even though i feel a trade makes sense for everybody i had no problem with him staying as long as he was committed. But now he is starting to bitch/moan again and it gets tiring

CrushAlot wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

callmened wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I wonder if Melo would feel better just with the hiring of a better coach before the draft. Walton or Thibs would at least give the appearance that the Knicks are moving forward and I think both guys would make ny more attractive for free agents. I would start there if I was in charge. Thibs and Melo have a mutual fondness for each other and both guys are among the best at their craft. I think Melo is gone if Rambis is the guy.

i really dont care what melo thinks. im tired of catering to him

Absolutely This. Even though i feel a trade makes sense for everybody i had no problem with him staying as long as he was committed. But now he is starting to bitch/moan again and it gets tiring

See tonight's game thread. What is happening sucks. The Knicks looked like they had this game in the first half. I was out and missed the second half but a loss like this just sucks and Melo and KP both were just under 40 mins on the first night of a back to back. I don't know about you but I am frustrated. Afflalo has expressed frustration, Jose has expressed frustration, Melo has expressed it and is constantly being asked about it by the media, and KP while not expressing frustration with the team has talked about being frustrated with his own play.

Knicks don't have the talent to prolong good play. They also don't have another level they can take things to. The Wiz kicked up the defense and that's all it took to take the Knicks out of it.

IMO the lack of players that can create for themselves and others is a huge issue. Phil has to add guards n forwards that can create their own shot as well as pass effectively. Getting more easy buckets as well. Other teams get way more easy buckets.

Every score is hard fought when teams press this team. None of our players can break that pressure and that's why Phil is taking a look at Wroten. I suspect he'll look for others as well. Guys that can create something out of nothing and also defend.

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

callmened wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I wonder if Melo would feel better just with the hiring of a better coach before the draft. Walton or Thibs would at least give the appearance that the Knicks are moving forward and I think both guys would make ny more attractive for free agents. I would start there if I was in charge. Thibs and Melo have a mutual fondness for each other and both guys are among the best at their craft. I think Melo is gone if Rambis is the guy.

i really dont care what melo thinks. im tired of catering to him

Absolutely This. Even though i feel a trade makes sense for everybody i had no problem with him staying as long as he was committed. But now he is starting to bitch/moan again and it gets tiring

See tonight's game thread. What is happening sucks. The Knicks looked like they had this game in the first half. I was out and missed the second half but a loss like this just sucks and Melo and KP both were just under 40 mins on the first night of a back to back. I don't know about you but I am frustrated. Afflalo has expressed frustration, Jose has expressed frustration, Melo has expressed it and is constantly being asked about it by the media, and KP while not expressing frustration with the team has talked about being frustrated with his own play.

Knicks don't have the talent to prolong good play. They also don't have another level they can take things to. The Wiz kicked up the defense and that's all it took to take the Knicks out of it.

IMO the lack of players that can create for themselves and others is a huge issue. Phil has to add guards n forwards that can create their own shot as well as pass effectively. Getting more easy buckets as well. Other teams get way more easy buckets.

Every score is hard fought when teams press this team. None of our players can break that pressure and that's why Phil is taking a look at Wroten. I suspect he'll look for others as well. Guys that can create something out of nothing and also defend.

You are talking about a team which has star with one bad leg and other leg out the door and 20 years rookie plus a bunch of scrubs...
This project is barely started and even demolition phase is not done yet all the way.
This team is not ready for good coach and will not be for another 2-3 years. Why pay Tibs now? He is not a magical worker and even a magical worker cannot made this NBA team embryo win any more games.

callmened wrote:So basically melo admitted that he doesnt want to be a partof a rebuilding process yet hell see what he can do to attract free agents tothe knicks. if (and when) the knicks fail to sign "superstars" like rondo, dwight, etc...then it sounds like melo will be fed up and WAIVE his no trade clause.

For sake of discussion, i wont go into how UNLEADER-like and SELFISH this situation is....instead ill focus on how this effects the knicks. Melo ultimately wants to give phil and the knicks one last chance to stay. he even said he'll play a big part in recruiting. for many reasons, that many folks have listed here, bringing significant star players to ny doesnt seem like a realistic option this yr. therefore melo will ask for a trade (and collect his $10 mill trade kicker bonus). the problem is WHEN ALL OF THIS WILL HAPPEN (early August-ish?).

a couple concerns:
- the knicks will try to appease melo by bringing in washed up talent past their prime like rondo or dwight. i actually trust that phil is smarter than that and will use this as a force to make melo leave
- by the time, melo makes up his mind (to leave), the free agency period will be OVER. so what do you do now with no one left?
- when melo asks for a trade, he will be 32 and (most likely i predict he WILL get a mini operation on that knee that was bothering him. 90% of his type of knee injury need a second surgery. but thats the physician in me talking). my point is HOW much will he be worth and to WHOM?
- so far all we know is the suitors reported have been contenders like: cleveland and the clippers. What young players or draft picks do they have? i guess this will be an "addition by subtraction" scenario. Melo's 25 mill contract will be subtracted - to do what with!? since all the FAs are signed

a few solutions:
- some folks here think I'm too negative (lol) so i'll offer some solutions
- DONT appease melo by bringing in washed up players. focus on getting a young a newer backcourt (jennings & bazemore?)
- of course try to buy some draft picks and get this team younger
- get what you can when melo decides to leave but dont expect much
- lastly and most importantly - ITS OK to rebuild. my thesis the past few months is to rebuild around KP. even if that means missing out on big names and not winning many games (we have draft picks the next few yrs). develop KP and a youth movement. but most of all, DONT overspend on long term contracts for players who arent good. save the money for summer of 2018 - when the cap lowers. thats summer some teams will have money, some wont - in a scenerio like that, THAT is when the knicks can TRULY compete for FAs if they save their money. at that time, KP will be in his prime, hopefully, youve established some young role players around him, the stop gap players (like jennings, bazemore) are coming off their contracts and youve made some good draft picks.

Melo is oblivious to anyone in the league under 25. If we bring in Rondo and or Dwight we may be a plyoff team but in a year we will once again be a sinking ship

callmened wrote:So basically melo admitted that he doesnt want to be a partof a rebuilding process yet hell see what he can do to attract free agents tothe knicks. if (and when) the knicks fail to sign "superstars" like rondo, dwight, etc...then it sounds like melo will be fed up and WAIVE his no trade clause.

For sake of discussion, i wont go into how UNLEADER-like and SELFISH this situation is....instead ill focus on how this effects the knicks. Melo ultimately wants to give phil and the knicks one last chance to stay. he even said he'll play a big part in recruiting. for many reasons, that many folks have listed here, bringing significant star players to ny doesnt seem like a realistic option this yr. therefore melo will ask for a trade (and collect his $10 mill trade kicker bonus). the problem is WHEN ALL OF THIS WILL HAPPEN (early August-ish?).

a couple concerns:
- the knicks will try to appease melo by bringing in washed up talent past their prime like rondo or dwight. i actually trust that phil is smarter than that and will use this as a force to make melo leave
- by the time, melo makes up his mind (to leave), the free agency period will be OVER. so what do you do now with no one left?
- when melo asks for a trade, he will be 32 and (most likely i predict he WILL get a mini operation on that knee that was bothering him. 90% of his type of knee injury need a second surgery. but thats the physician in me talking). my point is HOW much will he be worth and to WHOM?
- so far all we know is the suitors reported have been contenders like: cleveland and the clippers. What young players or draft picks do they have? i guess this will be an "addition by subtraction" scenario. Melo's 25 mill contract will be subtracted - to do what with!? since all the FAs are signed

a few solutions:
- some folks here think I'm too negative (lol) so i'll offer some solutions
- DONT appease melo by bringing in washed up players. focus on getting a young a newer backcourt (jennings & bazemore?)
- of course try to buy some draft picks and get this team younger
- get what you can when melo decides to leave but dont expect much
- lastly and most importantly - ITS OK to rebuild. my thesis the past few months is to rebuild around KP. even if that means missing out on big names and not winning many games (we have draft picks the next few yrs). develop KP and a youth movement. but most of all, DONT overspend on long term contracts for players who arent good. save the money for summer of 2018 - when the cap lowers. thats summer some teams will have money, some wont - in a scenerio like that, THAT is when the knicks can TRULY compete for FAs if they save their money. at that time, KP will be in his prime, hopefully, youve established some young role players around him, the stop gap players (like jennings, bazemore) are coming off their contracts and youve made some good draft picks.

Any trade with the Clippers or Cavs will net us a pretty good player just because of the salaries.There will be plenty of teams interested in Love. We could get a kings ransom for him, we can ship him to a team that has no hope of getting a star to sign.

nyknickzingis wrote:I think the team would be better both in the short and longterm if they got 2 starters that fit into our style of play and current talent with a Melo trade than keeping Melo.

If say Melo goes to the Clippers, Blake Griffen goes to a 3rd team, and we can get 2 starters in the prime of their careers from that 3rd team, I think the team will be better for it. If you can open up some capspace along the way, even better.

Melo as the main man in NY is a gigantic failure. Blame Triangle, blame Phil, but even before 2014 spring, Melo was on a lottery team. Can't forget how at least this system and Phil have gotten Melo to play team ball and a more balanced game. However he is what he is. A top 20-25 player, making top 5/MVP money. A guy with a declining physical state, on his way down as a player. He's great for a 2nd or 3rd option. He can not carry a team to the playoffs, let alone a championship. Knicks will not get a better player than Melo in free agency. Porzingis is still a puppy, he needs time. Porzingis peak is what, 2-3 years from now? Melo will be gone by then. So, how do you get a player who is as good as Melo such that Melo can be the 2nd best player on the floor for the Knicks? I don't know.

I may even be crazy to say this, but I've began to like the way Lopez/Porzingis/Calderon play off each other. We need 2 new starters next to them, who are supremely athletic. Defend well. Shoot 3's well enough. Can pass. It's not even an expectation to play like a 1st or 2nd option. We play team ball, balanced ball. We can be in a better position longterm that way.

My biggest fear is Melo gets Dolan to fire Phil, and we are left with Isiah Thomas. He immediately signs Rondo and Dwight Howard and trades 3 future unprotected lottery picks for garbage.
Phil can not cater to melo we must stay the course. The Knicks need to be awful again next season. Get 1 more lottery player in here to pair with Porzingis. Draft picks are so important, you can't without team controlled cheap contracts

nyknickzingis wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I think the team would be better both in the short and longterm if they got 2 starters that fit into our style of play and current talent with a Melo trade than keeping Melo.

If say Melo goes to the Clippers, Blake Griffen goes to a 3rd team, and we can get 2 starters in the prime of their careers from that 3rd team, I think the team will be better for it. If you can open up some capspace along the way, even better.

Melo as the main man in NY is a gigantic failure. Blame Triangle, blame Phil, but even before 2014 spring, Melo was on a lottery team. Can't forget how at least this system and Phil have gotten Melo to play team ball and a more balanced game. However he is what he is. A top 20-25 player, making top 5/MVP money. A guy with a declining physical state, on his way down as a player. He's great for a 2nd or 3rd option. He can not carry a team to the playoffs, let alone a championship. Knicks will not get a better player than Melo in free agency. Porzingis is still a puppy, he needs time. Porzingis peak is what, 2-3 years from now? Melo will be gone by then. So, how do you get a player who is as good as Melo such that Melo can be the 2nd best player on the floor for the Knicks? I don't know.

I may even be crazy to say this, but I've began to like the way Lopez/Porzingis/Calderon play off each other. We need 2 new starters next to them, who are supremely athletic. Defend well. Shoot 3's well enough. Can pass. It's not even an expectation to play like a 1st or 2nd option. We play team ball, balanced ball. We can be in a better position longterm that way.

My biggest fear is Melo gets Dolan to fire Phil, and we are left with Isiah Thomas. He immediately signs Rondo and Dwight Howard and trades 3 future unprotected lottery picks for garbage.
Phil can not cater to melo we must stay the course. The Knicks need to be awful again next season. Get 1 more lottery player in here to pair with Porzingis. Draft picks are so important, you can't without team controlled cheap contracts

That's the very reason I'm such a backer of what Phil is trying to do. He hasn't made a single move to hurt the franchise's longterm growth. Coaches? System? These things can be fixed within 1 training camp. First thing is have the talent. If Phil's system fails, and you have talent, the new coach will come in and make it work. However what you had in the past is guys who killed the franchise longterm to try and win 10 more games in the short term which is really poor management.

We've got so much capspace, after this summer all our draft picks. We already have some good relatively young pieces like Lopez, Porzingis, Galloway, Grant, Wroten, Williams, Hernangomez. If we trade Melo and get some more young players, we'll be able to hasten Porzingis development. He'll know he has to step up and be more of a scoring option, more of a leader on the floor. Combine that with an all-star level guard, and you'll have something. All you need is 2 high level players (Porzingis should be one of them, the other has to be attained via draft or free agency) and very good supporting players.

What has Melo really done for the team even with his all-star level? He doesn't get you enough wins to be in position to make the playoffs. And in terms of next season, he doesn't allow you to be bad enough to draft very high. If Melo is traded, and you become far worse, in 2017 you can draft another Porzingis level player wit a top 5 pick. There's very little losses in a Melo trade, far more gains. This would be a totally different argument if Melo were 25, 27 or something like that. He's going to be 32. He's got a couple years left at an all-star level. Time to cash in for the Knicks. If Melo finally sees he needs to go to a team where he isn't the primary offensive weapon, good for him. It's also good for us, believe it or not. It's not like we are a playoff team with him.

I also believe the Knicks would be a better team with an athletic small forward that can get up and down the floor, defend a bit and compliment Porzingis/Lopez. Melo's best spot is 4, and so is Porzingis. Porzingis will eventually move to 5, but not for a few years. Melo/Porzingis/Lopez makes us slow. If we change things around there, get some speed, we'll be able to play the 2 bigs Lopez/Porzingis and be able to match up better with teams.

Lets just say we were able to trade Melo to the Clippers, move Blake to the Bucks and wind up with Middleton. Sign Batum in the offseason. This is a different team with Lopez/Porzingis/Batum/Middleton/Grant next year. More athletic, more defensively skilled, more balanced. Bring Jose/Afflalo/Williams or Thomas off the bench. We're a better team than this year, and have capspace and draft picks to work with moving forward.

Phil is possibly one good summer from putting a winning team together and I think he wants that to happen before he leaves. If he strikes out he can always talk with MELO about a separation but I think they're gonna give it one more try.

fwk00 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I still don't expect MELO to leave. He knows the Knicks will have cap space and he'll hold out hope that they can get some guys to come on board. It's just not set up for Phil or MELO to part ways yet IMO. MELO doesn't really want to leave so it's gonna take a lot to make him give up.

Phil is possibly one good summer from putting a winning team together and I think he wants that to happen before he leaves. If he strikes out he can always talk with MELO about a separation but I think they're gonna give it one more try.

I agree. The grass isn't greener anywhere else for Melo. Disappointing as this season has been, the team is improving and another good summer of transactions can turn a corner.
For all the doom and gloom, Phil has done alright.

People have to look at this from Melo's position! Why go to the Clippers and have deal with the Spurs and Warriors? In the East he at least has a punchers chance if they add the right talent and get internal growth as well. Why uproot his family at this point? There's no sure title situation waiting for him in LAC!

callmened wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I still don't expect MELO to leave. He knows the Knicks will have cap space and he'll hold out hope that they can get some guys to come on board. It's just not set up for Phil or MELO to part ways yet IMO. MELO doesn't really want to leave so it's gonna take a lot to make him give up.

Phil is possibly one good summer from putting a winning team together and I think he wants that to happen before he leaves. If he strikes out he can always talk with MELO about a separation but I think they're gonna give it one more try.

I agree. The grass isn't greener anywhere else for Melo. Disappointing as this season has been, the team is improving and another good summer of transactions can turn a corner.
For all the doom and gloom, Phil has done alright.

People have to look at this from Melo's position! Why go to the Clippers and have deal with the Spurs and Warriors? In the East he at least has a punchers chance if they add the right talent and get internal growth as well. Why uproot his family at this point? There's no sure title situation waiting for him in LAC!

i have no idea whats in melo's head. but im just looking at it from a logical standpoint. he stated (on record) that he doesnt want to be on a rebuilding team and he wants to win a ring soon. the knicks are a rebuilding team (fine you can debate that) but they are NO WHERE CLOSE to winning a ring soon. he can go to better teams and have a better chance.

im not a melo fan or hater. i think he is what he is...a great scorer. all i ask is that he MAKES UP HIS MIND SOON...so the knicks know how to plan accordingly. i think him not answering affirmatively ( I AM DEFINITELY STAYING) paints this grey cloud picture of uncertainty. and THAT is my biggest beef with him...right now. i understand his dilemma...but either stay or GO. make up your damn mind and stick to it!

callmened wrote:see melo continues to contradict himself (which tells me he's not sure). he wasnt to "head the round table" and lead the charge to recruit free agents. yet he states phil has to prove things to him "with action not just words" in terms of getting him help.

thats why its the TIMING of everything thats messed up. melo most likely will evaluate his status after he sees who the knicks get or DONT get in the summer. thats completely screws over the knicks team - since all the free agents will be signed. and most likely you cant get much for melo