nyknickzingis wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Phil Jackson can do what every other GM in the last 20 years would do - trade draft picks, heck maybe even trade Porzingis for an all-star, and it would just repeat the same trend.

Knicks become good for a year, then they realize the team they have isn't good enough to win a championship and regret trading draft picks and investing so much in veteran all-stars who are on decline.

Melo needs help? He's had help in his career. He had help in Denver, he chose to go to NY. He had help in NY, and he didn't do much with it. Now it's about re-building the team for the longterm. If he can't accept that, if it's not going to work out for him, he can waive his NTC and we can some young players.

Is Phil building the team for the long term sake of the Knicks or his own legacy and philosophy?

Jerian Grant, Kristaps Porzingis and preserving picks in 2017 and 2018 are not for his legacy. Hernangomez is another solid pick. These are all moves that will likely pay dividends (maybe not all of them, but some of them) well after Phil is retired or reduced to a consultant role. He won't be working at this level 5 years from now, but guys like Porzingis may be the face of the franchise and guys that were drafted could be playing with him. In free agency we've literally got boat loads of capspace in 2017 if we want to use it then, and have considerable this summer as well.

Sure he believes in the Triangle, he believes in a certain style of play. However he has yet to make transactions or moves that have shown to be harmful to the longterm stability of the franchise. Every move he's made virtually has been with a longterm view point. In 3-4-5 years Phil may not be a Knick president, and we may not be running the Triangle. I promise you though, if Porzingis is the player he can be, if some of the picks we make in these years turn out to be good, and we sign 1 or 2 star free agents between 2016-2018, you all will be looking back and saying thank god for Phil's patience and approach. The Triangle is just a way of setting up a team on offense. Rarely do we even run it exclusively or with the type of approach some think. We go into isolations with Melo, we go into pick and rolls. Post dumps. Lots of stuff. It's about having the talent in place that can make shots, that can defend. We just don't have that talent right now.

Post dumps? Can we leave the brown post thread out of this please?

+1 though
The lowlights of watching a wide open Curry get the ball over and over (uncontested mostly) and Jose not even attempting to fight through a screen, leaving us to witness the defensive prowess of DWill on the switch, Galloway wondering where the fuhuck he's supposed to be, and Jerian Grant standing around and waving at those threes is just painful to watch.

Can't we get just one athletic hardnose like Starks to just use up 6 fouls beating the living sheehit out of someone like Curry? Would rather watch him parade to the line than doing his six shooter dance after bouncing shots off the top of the backboard with practically no one near him.

BRIGGS wrote:Th team will be better for trading Carmelo Anthony--making its own identity--focusing on several younger guards who move the ball and play the game the right way and developing KP. Keeping Carmelo makes no sense if we can get a good deal. Hes going to be 33 next year--we are NOT winning anything and we will NEVER win with him. Hes a good NBA talent that's here and the wrong time. We/he had his chance when he forced his way here and we gave up the boatload of assets we couldve surrounded him with either through trade or keeping them. We gave it up had little in the till and thats that. Its not happening now

You hit the nail on the head. This team has been depleted ever since Melo came aboard. The Knicks lost players and draft picks because of the deal. Melo said it was a business decision it wasn't about winning it was a business decision to maximize his intake.

At this point with his age getting up there and his inability to play the complete season. He has to think about the possibility of moving on to a better situation for him and for the Knicks. If the Knicks trade Melo the Knicks probably stink again but that would be ok since the window to the championship even with Melo would be closed. The window to a playoff spot is closed with Melo. The Knicks really do have to start thinking about long term let the LeBron and other players age out while the Knicks rebuild.

BRIGGS wrote:Th team will be better for trading Carmelo Anthony--making its own identity--focusing on several younger guards who move the ball and play the game the right way and developing KP. Keeping Carmelo makes no sense if we can get a good deal. Hes going to be 33 next year--we are NOT winning anything and we will NEVER win with him. Hes a good NBA talent that's here and the wrong time. We/he had his chance when he forced his way here and we gave up the boatload of assets we couldve surrounded him with either through trade or keeping them. We gave it up had little in the till and thats that. Its not happening now

Briggs WHEN HAVE THE KNICKS EVER MADE A GOOD TRADE THAT BENFITTED THEM, OTHER THEN SPREWELL( and that was only because he was coming of the choking incident)

So how can you have faith in a franchise that hasn't made a good trade in 20 yrs, has made one decent draft pick in the same amount of time..

Are you blind?

The last 3 major trades set the franchise back 3 yrs..Melo, shump, JR, bargiani, dude I can keep going back to the mcdyess trade..

jrodmc wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Th team will be better for trading Carmelo Anthony--making its own identity--focusing on several younger guards who move the ball and play the game the right way and developing KP. Keeping Carmelo makes no sense if we can get a good deal. Hes going to be 33 next year--we are NOT winning anything and we will NEVER win with him. Hes a good NBA talent that's here and the wrong time. We/he had his chance when he forced his way here and we gave up the boatload of assets we couldve surrounded him with either through trade or keeping them. We gave it up had little in the till and thats that. Its not happening now

Briggs WHEN HAVE THE KNICKS EVER MADE A GOOD TRADE THAT BENFITTED THEM, OTHER THEN SPREWELL( and that was only because he was coming of the choking incident)

So how can you have faith in a franchise that hasn't made a good trade in 20 yrs, has made one decent draft pick in the same amount of time..

Are you blind?

The last 3 major trades set the franchise back 3 yrs..Melo, shump, JR, bargiani, dude I can keep going back to the mcdyess trade..

So let's follow that trade logic. If the Melo trade was such a setback (and please define setback in the context of the time of the trade, not in relation to 10 or 40 years prior to it) and all those "assets", (most of which are on the IR or not assets any other team wants), and this franchise hasn't made a decent trade, then what were all those "assets" really worth?

Agree. Have made this point previously. Everyone that likes to throw out the "how much we lost" argument, can't seem to be able to name the players chosen with our picks. Hinnt..no Steph Curry. Let alone the fact most of the players involved are no longer there.

Draft pick rebuild is a LOTTO logic mentality. Same type of people that sit on a couch and count on a steady income from lottery tickets. All someone has to do is look at the last 10 years of draft picks of those teams that tried this approach. Charlotte, Philly, Lakers (last three years), are a good example. With many more teams that have struck out. Or just look at our draft picks in the last 10 or so years. Not high success rate.

jrodmc wrote:

Yeah Chucky, I know; better off licking ping pong balls than Melo's, right?

Correct, all the good franchises start with building blocks or young assets. GS, San An, OKC. Draft picks, foreign draft and stashes, Dleague call ups, and hungry young veterans. And if you can amass young talent, you can even flip them for free agents or superstars.

It's the most sustainable and fool proof way, since no good free agent in his prime is willingly signing in New York.

Build from within first.

crzymdups wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with what Melo said. He's right. If the Knicks can't build a contender through FA, it is time to think about this stuff.

I can see the case for trading Melo. I can see the case for trying to build around him in FA.

I think I'd feel better about trading him at this point, but I will be on board to root for him if we can get some good guards in the off-season.

+11 factorial!

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with what Melo said. He's right. If the Knicks can't build a contender through FA, it is time to think about this stuff.

I can see the case for trading Melo. I can see the case for trying to build around him in FA.

I think I'd feel better about trading him at this point, but I will be on board to root for him if we can get some good guards in the off-season.

good guards? Like wroten, jennings, and that other stiff turner from boston?

we need to trade him before we suck every ounce of value out of him. I am sure that at this point, he is really considering waving his NTC.

Still waiting for you to suggest a viable alternative.

While you're at it find me the analytical explanation for Lance Stephenson posting a .410 TS% in Charlotte last year and .569 TS% in Memphis this year.

Sometimes it's about fit.

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with what Melo said. He's right. If the Knicks can't build a contender through FA, it is time to think about this stuff.

I can see the case for trading Melo. I can see the case for trying to build around him in FA.

I think I'd feel better about trading him at this point, but I will be on board to root for him if we can get some good guards in the off-season.

good guards? Like wroten, jennings, and that other stiff turner from boston?

we need to trade him before we suck every ounce of value out of him. I am sure that at this point, he is really considering waving his NTC.

Still waiting for you to suggest a viable alternative.

While you're at it find me the analytical explanation for Lance Stephenson posting a .410 TS% in Charlotte last year and .569 TS% in Memphis this year.

Sometimes it's about fit.

I don't have a better suggestion and that is why I would say trade melo.

If we over pay for Conley or Batum, maybe that will work but I would not do it.

This is turning into a kindof starphuck because we need to do a full rebuild.

Ok cool. I'll wait on the analytics explanation, too!

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with what Melo said. He's right. If the Knicks can't build a contender through FA, it is time to think about this stuff.

I can see the case for trading Melo. I can see the case for trying to build around him in FA.

I think I'd feel better about trading him at this point, but I will be on board to root for him if we can get some good guards in the off-season.

good guards? Like wroten, jennings, and that other stiff turner from boston?

we need to trade him before we suck every ounce of value out of him. I am sure that at this point, he is really considering waving his NTC.

Still waiting for you to suggest a viable alternative.

While you're at it find me the analytical explanation for Lance Stephenson posting a .410 TS% in Charlotte last year and .569 TS% in Memphis this year.

Sometimes it's about fit.

I don't have a better suggestion and that is why I would say trade melo.

If we over pay for Conley or Batum, maybe that will work but I would not do it.

This is turning into a kindof starphuck because we need to do a full rebuild.

Ok cool. I'll wait on the analytics explanation, too!

on lance? Do I need to explain an anomaly/out liar?

Your whole view on analytics seems way off just based on this question. I am not just a guy who believes in the extreme importance of analytics. EVERY TEAM DOES!! well at least almost every team or at least the ones who don't let an old ego get in the way.

No, I am sincerely curious. His TS% is back to what it was in Indiana this season. Why was the Charlotte TS% SUCH an anomaly? That's a valid question, no? Shouldn't Charlotte have been able to expect Lance to play to his career norms?

I'd argue that that is where the more subjective notion of "fit" comes in, as opposed to something you can analytically define.

But I am honestly curious if there is a statistical way to predict fit. I would say no there is not a way to predict fit and that's where experienced and subjective notions of team building fit in - aka you kind of have to be able to envision how your team will work and how the pieces will fit and PREDICT statistical success. But if there is a way to statistically predict it, I am curious. Seriously.

crzymdups wrote:

Asked after practice Friday if he can guarantee he will be a Knick next season, Anthony demurred. Since he has a no-trade clause, Anthony holds the cards on whether he stays and where he might go.

“S–t, I don’t know,’’ Anthony answered. “I honesty … it’s hard to answer those type of questions when you don’t know what’s going to happen. We still have a month left to the season. To be thinking, ‘Am I going to be on this team next (season)?’ That’s for you to speculate.

“I don’t know what’s going to happen this summer,’’ Anthony added. “I can’t predict that.”

http://nypost.com/2016/03/18/s-t-i-dont-know-carmelos-bleakest-knicks-buy-in-yet/