martin wrote:

VCoug wrote:Modern NBA offense is about taking more good shots, shots at the rim because they're high-percentage and 3-pointer because they're worth an extra point, and taking fewer bad shots, mid- and long-range 2s because they're made at about the same rate as 3s. How you get those shots is not that important but most of the best offenses rely heavily on the pick and roll. Basically, it's D'Antoni 7SOL except pace isn't that important.

This seems right to me.

Agreed

VCoug wrote:Modern NBA offense is about taking more good shots, shots at the rim because they're high-percentage and 3-pointer because they're worth an extra point, and taking fewer bad shots, mid- and long-range 2s because they're made at about the same rate as 3s. How you get those shots is not that important but most of the best offenses rely heavily on the pick and roll. Basically, it's D'Antoni 7SOL except pace isn't that important.

well said.

one more thing to add, this style also is suppose to increase FTA which is the king of efficiency.

ChuckBuck wrote:

mreinman wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

martin wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

mreinman wrote:Houston has been quite successful with it over the last few years. Atlanta, Toronto, Now Portland as well, Charlotte.

There is a lot to it but the emphasis is the spread everyone out beyond the arc, initiate with PnR, force a double so one of the many wings are open, kick it out to the open man for 3, if he has it he shoots, if not, he drives and again attempts to draw help leaving a wing open, rinse and repeat until there is either an open shot at the rim or an open 3.

Very little posting and big men clogging mid range areas.

Midrange shots should not be taken unless there is an extenuating circumstance or you are Tim Duncan.

SSOL is just a speedier way to implement the modern offense and get into the sets (high level).

And one of basic tenets of the modern offense is to RUN at will. Run off misses, run off makes, RUN RUN RUN. DO NOT WALK IT UP. If you can get an easy bucket in transition, do it before the defense is set.

Outside of GSW which elite teams run run run such that it effects their pace? I don't see them; the teams that have won championship over the past 7 years don't seem to have high pace outside of GSW.

If you have an ultra efficient offense like San Antonio, then you can afford to walk it up from time to time. GS and OKC are both near the tops of RUN RUN RUNNING each year. Cleveland has Lebron so he accounts probably for 1000% of their fast break points.

OH LOOKEE THERE!!! Look at who's at the bottom.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game?date=2016-03-11

not all about running.

Cleveland took 44 threes the other night but they don't bring it up fast.

When you got Lebron James, Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Love you could probably walk, hover board it, baby crawl....don't matter when you have that type of talent.

I get it but you are focusing on the running which is misleading and personnel dependant.

Modern offense in the half court set is the main issue here.

martin wrote:I don't have a handle on this out side of PnR and spread shooters around the perimeter. Also, more emphasis on 3-point shooting because of advanced stats/analysis.

What is the definition of a modern offense? How can I identify it and see it happening on the court or through looking at team stats?

Who uses it and who is successful because of it? I already know about GSW, who else?

How is it different than other offenses? Princeton, motion, triangle, etc?

How does it relate to defense? i.e. Triangle is set up such that 2 (perimeter) players are at the top or near top of 3 point line so that there is balance after shot goes up.

What is a "modern defense"? There has got to be something that offsets a modern offense. Who is running a modern defense?

Paul Westphal started running it at Loyola in the 80's/90's then in the NBA. D'Antoni took from that sample and made it more popular. This link has step by step directions on the basic assignements.

https://www.cokertire.com/l78-15-coker-classic-4-whitewall-tire.html

Just look at the way GS flows on offense. You can't do this with clumsy players that lack ball handling or agility, not to mention shooting ability.

The Spurs are slower but doing similar things. They're much closer to the Knicks style of play but with much better talent so it works at a higher level. With the right talent NY could approximate what the Spurs do, playing at a slower pace.

ChuckBuck wrote:

martin wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

mreinman wrote:Houston has been quite successful with it over the last few years. Atlanta, Toronto, Now Portland as well, Charlotte.

There is a lot to it but the emphasis is the spread everyone out beyond the arc, initiate with PnR, force a double so one of the many wings are open, kick it out to the open man for 3, if he has it he shoots, if not, he drives and again attempts to draw help leaving a wing open, rinse and repeat until there is either an open shot at the rim or an open 3.

Very little posting and big men clogging mid range areas.

Midrange shots should not be taken unless there is an extenuating circumstance or you are Tim Duncan.

SSOL is just a speedier way to implement the modern offense and get into the sets (high level).

And one of basic tenets of the modern offense is to RUN at will. Run off misses, run off makes, RUN RUN RUN. DO NOT WALK IT UP. If you can get an easy bucket in transition, do it before the defense is set.

Outside of GSW which elite teams run run run such that it effects their pace? I don't see them; the teams that have won championship over the past 7 years don't seem to have high pace outside of GSW.

If you have an ultra efficient offense like San Antonio, then you can afford to walk it up from time to time. GS and OKC are both near the tops of RUN RUN RUNNING each year. Cleveland has Lebron so he accounts probably for 1000% of their fast break points.

OH LOOKEE THERE!!! Look at who's at the bottom.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game?date=2016-03-11

Your link shows that GSW are at the top and that OKC #5 is near the top. The rest of what is considered deep playoff teams or otherwise have the best records in the league - SAS #25, TOR #22, CLE #15, LAC #18, BOS #6, MEM #13, HEAT #24, CHA #23, ALT #8. To me this does not show that this particular fastbreak stat leads to a conclusion or a trend.

Pace and fastbreak points are not yet attributable to anything other than GSW has perfected both and used their talent and roster makeup to exploit.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:Part of the thing with the Warriors is the kind of talent they have. It's important that you have a high amount of players who can move, shoot, handle the ball and make excellent passes. Not every roster will be successful running the stuff they do. Teams like Atlanta were able to approximate what they do, but not very many teams are really as free flowing as the Warriors and for good reason. On top of this you have to have enough 2 way players to defend adequately.

Just look at the way GS flows on offense. You can't do this with clumsy players that lack ball handling or agility, not to mention shooting ability.

The Spurs are slower but doing similar things. They're much closer to the Knicks style of play but with much better talent so it works at a higher level. With the right talent NY could approximate what the Spurs do, playing at a slower pace.

so remove the spurs and GS from the equation since they are the extremes.

The knicks trying to emulate SA is just plain silly.

Why? Let's put Melo aside, maybe he is with the team long term, maybe he gets traded; mostly I want to put him aside so as to not distract from the line of thinking.

SAS is built with post guys, perimeter guys and Tony Parker running around with the ball. Ball movement, player movement. Defense.

The Knicks are light years away from being a championship team. They are also light years away from being completely built, it's a work in progress. Their new draft picks are KP, Grant, Willy, Thanasis, Early. Their long term contracts are Rolo, KOQ, Melo.

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:Part of the thing with the Warriors is the kind of talent they have. It's important that you have a high amount of players who can move, shoot, handle the ball and make excellent passes. Not every roster will be successful running the stuff they do. Teams like Atlanta were able to approximate what they do, but not very many teams are really as free flowing as the Warriors and for good reason. On top of this you have to have enough 2 way players to defend adequately.

Just look at the way GS flows on offense. You can't do this with clumsy players that lack ball handling or agility, not to mention shooting ability.

The Spurs are slower but doing similar things. They're much closer to the Knicks style of play but with much better talent so it works at a higher level. With the right talent NY could approximate what the Spurs do, playing at a slower pace.

so remove the spurs and GS from the equation since they are the extremes.

The knicks trying to emulate SA is just plain silly.

Why? Let's put Melo aside, maybe he is with the team long term, maybe he gets traded; mostly I want to put him aside so as to not distract from the line of thinking.

SAS is built with post guys, perimeter guys and Tony Parker running around with the ball. Ball movement, player movement. Defense.

The Knicks are light years away from being a championship team. They are also light years away from being completely built, it's a work in progress. Their new draft picks are KP, Grant, Willy, Thanasis, Early. Their long term contracts are Rolo, KOQ, Melo.

SAS is a very solid comparison of what the Knicks are likely to do since they also have post players like we do but they have the guards to make it work. The plays I posted above are the Spurs version of the triangle. It's the same spacing but they have Parker and Duncan in the 2 man and more dangerous shooters on the Triangle side. So yeah... talent makes a huge difference in how the same play looks.

Did you forget Kawhi Leonard? Perhaps the 2nd best player in the league?

So perhaps we can get pop to coach, draft Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and have the little known Kawhi Leonard as a consolation prize.

If we can do all that and of course wait until our timmy is old so that we need to slow down the offense then yes, we would be a good comp.

But hey .... still so much fun to speak in 1/1000000000 shots.

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

VCoug wrote:Modern NBA offense is about taking more good shots, shots at the rim because they're high-percentage and 3-pointer because they're worth an extra point, and taking fewer bad shots, mid- and long-range 2s because they're made at about the same rate as 3s. How you get those shots is not that important but most of the best offenses rely heavily on the pick and roll. Basically, it's D'Antoni 7SOL except pace isn't that important.

well said.

one more thing to add, this style also is suppose to increase FTA which is the king of efficiency.

Yes, agree with all this.

Houston is one of the key followers of this line of thinking.

Also the corner three is the highest percentage three and the easiest one to create a wide open look on with some basic ball movement and cutting.

I'd like it if teams played a diverse and varied NBA game... I wouldn't like if every team played the exact same style.

One thought - maybe they should get rid of the corner three? Have the three point line be an arc that continues and goes out of bounds around where it lines up with the free throw line? I think that'd be interesting.

maybe the teams can share one basket so more fans can get in and watch?

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

VCoug wrote:Modern NBA offense is about taking more good shots, shots at the rim because they're high-percentage and 3-pointer because they're worth an extra point, and taking fewer bad shots, mid- and long-range 2s because they're made at about the same rate as 3s. How you get those shots is not that important but most of the best offenses rely heavily on the pick and roll. Basically, it's D'Antoni 7SOL except pace isn't that important.

well said.

one more thing to add, this style also is suppose to increase FTA which is the king of efficiency.

Yes, agree with all this.

Houston is one of the key followers of this line of thinking.

Also the corner three is the highest percentage three and the easiest one to create a wide open look on with some basic ball movement and cutting.

I'd like it if teams played a diverse and varied NBA game... I wouldn't like if every team played the exact same style.

One thought - maybe they should get rid of the corner three? Have the three point line be an arc that continues and goes out of bounds around where it lines up with the free throw line? I think that'd be interesting.

maybe the teams can share one basket so more fans can get in and watch?

The game isn't static - they widened the lane, they added the three point line. I don't think they should back the line, but I think it could be an interesting wrinkle to get rid of the corner three.

I'd also be into the idea of a slightly wider court and a 23'9" three point line all the way around the basket.

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

VCoug wrote:Modern NBA offense is about taking more good shots, shots at the rim because they're high-percentage and 3-pointer because they're worth an extra point, and taking fewer bad shots, mid- and long-range 2s because they're made at about the same rate as 3s. How you get those shots is not that important but most of the best offenses rely heavily on the pick and roll. Basically, it's D'Antoni 7SOL except pace isn't that important.

well said.

one more thing to add, this style also is suppose to increase FTA which is the king of efficiency.

Yes, agree with all this.

Houston is one of the key followers of this line of thinking.

Also the corner three is the highest percentage three and the easiest one to create a wide open look on with some basic ball movement and cutting.

I'd like it if teams played a diverse and varied NBA game... I wouldn't like if every team played the exact same style.

One thought - maybe they should get rid of the corner three? Have the three point line be an arc that continues and goes out of bounds around where it lines up with the free throw line? I think that'd be interesting.

maybe the teams can share one basket so more fans can get in and watch?

The game isn't static - they widened the lane, they added the three point line. I don't think they should back the line, but I think it could be an interesting wrinkle to get rid of the corner three.

I'd also be into the idea of a slightly wider court and a 23'9" three point line all the way around the basket.

wider court maybe but I don't think they would want to take away one of the most exciting plays in the game.

Love the idea of a 4 point shot though.