crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Shows OP's bias.
Sasha is being paid 3rd string (backup to a backup) money and playing time. With Afflalo out, Galloway's struggles, Sasha's energy and offense experience showed.

The Triangle hate can continue all day and every year, but the offense isn't even close to the Knicks problem. They need more talent, more from Porzingis as he gets older and they need to keep adding talent through the draft and free agency.

The Knicks will be running a higher pace next year. Their offense rating is currently 18th, and their pace is 26th. With some better guards next year and more playing time for Grant, we can push and play at a higher pace. With that we'll score more a few more points a game. We can and will be better. But it'll take time.

My bias is that Phoenix is terrible?

Why don't you look up what our pace has been during the Melo years (hint: it's always been the same, triangle or no triangle) and get back to me about how we'll magically start playing at a faster pace next year.

at the same time you will need to also help us understand why Pace is all on Melo and not also something else. Could it be the guards?

I thought this previously, but Melo has the highest usage and the team's pace has been nearly the same whether D'Antoni, Woodson, Fisher or Rambis was the coach.

The pace is due primarily to Melo. He's the only constant over the past five years on the entire roster or coaching staff.

NYK Pace

2012-3 Pace: 92.0 Rank: 26th
2013-4 Pace: 92.6 Rank: 29th
2014-5 Pace: 93.7 Rank: 27th
2015-6 Pace: 96.0 Rank: 25th

Usage = Pace? Is that the formula? Or is it a combo of defensive rebounds, guards, and team?

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Shows OP's bias.
Sasha is being paid 3rd string (backup to a backup) money and playing time. With Afflalo out, Galloway's struggles, Sasha's energy and offense experience showed.

The Triangle hate can continue all day and every year, but the offense isn't even close to the Knicks problem. They need more talent, more from Porzingis as he gets older and they need to keep adding talent through the draft and free agency.

The Knicks will be running a higher pace next year. Their offense rating is currently 18th, and their pace is 26th. With some better guards next year and more playing time for Grant, we can push and play at a higher pace. With that we'll score more a few more points a game. We can and will be better. But it'll take time.

My bias is that Phoenix is terrible?

Why don't you look up what our pace has been during the Melo years (hint: it's always been the same, triangle or no triangle) and get back to me about how we'll magically start playing at a faster pace next year.

at the same time you will need to also help us understand why Pace is all on Melo and not also something else. Could it be the guards?

I thought this previously, but Melo has the highest usage and the team's pace has been nearly the same whether D'Antoni, Woodson, Fisher or Rambis was the coach.

The pace is due primarily to Melo. He's the only constant over the past five years on the entire roster or coaching staff.

NYK Pace

2012-3 Pace: 92.0 Rank: 26th
2013-4 Pace: 92.6 Rank: 29th
2014-5 Pace: 93.7 Rank: 27th
2015-6 Pace: 96.0 Rank: 25th

Usage = Pace? Is that the formula? Or is it a combo of defensive rebounds, guards, and team?

The guy who uses the ball the most will have the largest impact on the team's pace.

I think in a larger sense, the pace the Knicks have played with under Melo is the pace Melo is comfortable playing.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is a reality of how Melo plays.

Playing a slow pace doesn't automatically equal bad. San Antonio is 24th in pace this year, just ahead of the Knicks.

I'm just saying it's a reality of how 30-something year-old high-usage Melo-focused teams will play.

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Shows OP's bias.
Sasha is being paid 3rd string (backup to a backup) money and playing time. With Afflalo out, Galloway's struggles, Sasha's energy and offense experience showed.

The Triangle hate can continue all day and every year, but the offense isn't even close to the Knicks problem. They need more talent, more from Porzingis as he gets older and they need to keep adding talent through the draft and free agency.

The Knicks will be running a higher pace next year. Their offense rating is currently 18th, and their pace is 26th. With some better guards next year and more playing time for Grant, we can push and play at a higher pace. With that we'll score more a few more points a game. We can and will be better. But it'll take time.

My bias is that Phoenix is terrible?

Why don't you look up what our pace has been during the Melo years (hint: it's always been the same, triangle or no triangle) and get back to me about how we'll magically start playing at a faster pace next year.

at the same time you will need to also help us understand why Pace is all on Melo and not also something else. Could it be the guards?

I thought this previously, but Melo has the highest usage and the team's pace has been nearly the same whether D'Antoni, Woodson, Fisher or Rambis was the coach.

The pace is due primarily to Melo. He's the only constant over the past five years on the entire roster or coaching staff.

NYK Pace

2012-3 Pace: 92.0 Rank: 26th
2013-4 Pace: 92.6 Rank: 29th
2014-5 Pace: 93.7 Rank: 27th
2015-6 Pace: 96.0 Rank: 25th

Usage = Pace? Is that the formula? Or is it a combo of defensive rebounds, guards, and team?

The guy who uses the ball the most will have the largest impact on the team's pace.

I think in a larger sense, the pace the Knicks have played with under Melo is the pace Melo is comfortable playing.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is a reality of how Melo plays.

Playing a slow pace doesn't automatically equal bad. San Antonio is 24th in pace this year, just ahead of the Knicks.

I'm just saying it's a reality of how 30-something year-old high-usage Melo-focused teams will play.

Could you explain to me what Usage is and how it's calculated and how it effects pace? I don't understand it

Usage is just how many possessions a player gets relative to his teammates per 40 minutes. Melo is 17th in the league at 28.7 possessions per 40 minutes.

Pace is the number of possessions the team gets in the course of the game.

I guess Usage and Pace do not directly correllate - but Melo has always been a player who takes longer on his post ups or wing isolation plays. Longer possessions = fewer possessions = slower pace. Since Melo has 28.7 of our 96 possessions in the game, about a third, the pace he plays directly affects the pace the team plays.

I'm not sure why our pace slowed down so much when Melo arrived, but it did. We were top 10 in the league in Pace under MDA before Melo arrived. Denver was actually always top 5 in the league in Pace WITH Melo, but that was Karl who liked to push pace.

Maybe it does come to coaching - Woodson, Fisher, Rambis have slowed our Pace?

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Shows OP's bias.
Sasha is being paid 3rd string (backup to a backup) money and playing time. With Afflalo out, Galloway's struggles, Sasha's energy and offense experience showed.

The Triangle hate can continue all day and every year, but the offense isn't even close to the Knicks problem. They need more talent, more from Porzingis as he gets older and they need to keep adding talent through the draft and free agency.

The Knicks will be running a higher pace next year. Their offense rating is currently 18th, and their pace is 26th. With some better guards next year and more playing time for Grant, we can push and play at a higher pace. With that we'll score more a few more points a game. We can and will be better. But it'll take time.

My bias is that Phoenix is terrible?

Why don't you look up what our pace has been during the Melo years (hint: it's always been the same, triangle or no triangle) and get back to me about how we'll magically start playing at a faster pace next year.

at the same time you will need to also help us understand why Pace is all on Melo and not also something else. Could it be the guards?

I thought this previously, but Melo has the highest usage and the team's pace has been nearly the same whether D'Antoni, Woodson, Fisher or Rambis was the coach.

The pace is due primarily to Melo. He's the only constant over the past five years on the entire roster or coaching staff.

NYK Pace

2012-3 Pace: 92.0 Rank: 26th
2013-4 Pace: 92.6 Rank: 29th
2014-5 Pace: 93.7 Rank: 27th
2015-6 Pace: 96.0 Rank: 25th

Usage = Pace? Is that the formula? Or is it a combo of defensive rebounds, guards, and team?

The guy who uses the ball the most will have the largest impact on the team's pace.

I think in a larger sense, the pace the Knicks have played with under Melo is the pace Melo is comfortable playing.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is a reality of how Melo plays.

Playing a slow pace doesn't automatically equal bad. San Antonio is 24th in pace this year, just ahead of the Knicks.

I'm just saying it's a reality of how 30-something year-old high-usage Melo-focused teams will play.

Could you explain to me what Usage is and how it's calculated and how it effects pace? I don't understand it

Usage is just how many possessions a player gets relative to his teammates per 40 minutes. Melo is 17th in the league at 28.7 possessions per 40 minutes.

Pace is the number of possessions the team gets in the course of the game.

I guess Usage and Pace do not directly correllate - but Melo has always been a player who takes longer on his post ups or wing isolation plays. Longer possessions = fewer possessions = slower pace. Since Melo has 28.7 of our 96 possessions in the game, about a third, the pace he plays directly affects the pace the team plays.

I'm not sure why our pace slowed down so much when Melo arrived, but it did. We were top 10 in the league in Pace under MDA before Melo arrived. Denver was actually always top 5 in the league in Pace WITH Melo, but that was Karl who liked to push pace.

Maybe it does come to coaching - Woodson, Fisher, Rambis have slowed our Pace?

My take is that IsoMeloBall would effect pace somewhat but so does defensive rounding (outlet passing) and guard play (Jose, AA, Gallo will not push pace).

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Shows OP's bias.
Sasha is being paid 3rd string (backup to a backup) money and playing time. With Afflalo out, Galloway's struggles, Sasha's energy and offense experience showed.

The Triangle hate can continue all day and every year, but the offense isn't even close to the Knicks problem. They need more talent, more from Porzingis as he gets older and they need to keep adding talent through the draft and free agency.

The Knicks will be running a higher pace next year. Their offense rating is currently 18th, and their pace is 26th. With some better guards next year and more playing time for Grant, we can push and play at a higher pace. With that we'll score more a few more points a game. We can and will be better. But it'll take time.

My bias is that Phoenix is terrible?

Why don't you look up what our pace has been during the Melo years (hint: it's always been the same, triangle or no triangle) and get back to me about how we'll magically start playing at a faster pace next year.

at the same time you will need to also help us understand why Pace is all on Melo and not also something else. Could it be the guards?

I thought this previously, but Melo has the highest usage and the team's pace has been nearly the same whether D'Antoni, Woodson, Fisher or Rambis was the coach.

The pace is due primarily to Melo. He's the only constant over the past five years on the entire roster or coaching staff.

NYK Pace

2012-3 Pace: 92.0 Rank: 26th
2013-4 Pace: 92.6 Rank: 29th
2014-5 Pace: 93.7 Rank: 27th
2015-6 Pace: 96.0 Rank: 25th

Usage = Pace? Is that the formula? Or is it a combo of defensive rebounds, guards, and team?

The guy who uses the ball the most will have the largest impact on the team's pace.

I think in a larger sense, the pace the Knicks have played with under Melo is the pace Melo is comfortable playing.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is a reality of how Melo plays.

Playing a slow pace doesn't automatically equal bad. San Antonio is 24th in pace this year, just ahead of the Knicks.

I'm just saying it's a reality of how 30-something year-old high-usage Melo-focused teams will play.

Could you explain to me what Usage is and how it's calculated and how it effects pace? I don't understand it

Usage is just how many possessions a player gets relative to his teammates per 40 minutes. Melo is 17th in the league at 28.7 possessions per 40 minutes.

Pace is the number of possessions the team gets in the course of the game.

I guess Usage and Pace do not directly correllate - but Melo has always been a player who takes longer on his post ups or wing isolation plays. Longer possessions = fewer possessions = slower pace. Since Melo has 28.7 of our 96 possessions in the game, about a third, the pace he plays directly affects the pace the team plays.

I'm not sure why our pace slowed down so much when Melo arrived, but it did. We were top 10 in the league in Pace under MDA before Melo arrived. Denver was actually always top 5 in the league in Pace WITH Melo, but that was Karl who liked to push pace.

Maybe it does come to coaching - Woodson, Fisher, Rambis have slowed our Pace?

My take is that IsoMeloBall would effect pace somewhat but so does defensive rounding (outlet passing) and guard play (Jose, AA, Gallo will not push pace).

But their pace has been essentially the same since 2012-3. It is actually somewhat faster this year, but the entire league is playing much faster now.

Right, but does that mean it is coincidental or underlying factor? I mean it COULD be because of Melo. Could be a combo of things.

Does high pace in Denver happened because of Melo? Those 2 things were there at the same time.

ChuckBuck wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Shows OP's bias.
Sasha is being paid 3rd string (backup to a backup) money and playing time. With Afflalo out, Galloway's struggles, Sasha's energy and offense experience showed.

The Triangle hate can continue all day and every year, but the offense isn't even close to the Knicks problem. They need more talent, more from Porzingis as he gets older and they need to keep adding talent through the draft and free agency.

The Knicks will be running a higher pace next year. Their offense rating is currently 18th, and their pace is 26th. With some better guards next year and more playing time for Grant, we can push and play at a higher pace. With that we'll score more a few more points a game. We can and will be better. But it'll take time.

My bias is that Phoenix is terrible?

Why don't you look up what our pace has been during the Melo years (hint: it's always been the same, triangle or no triangle) and get back to me about how we'll magically start playing at a faster pace next year.

at the same time you will need to also help us understand why Pace is all on Melo and not also something else. Could it be the guards?

I thought this previously, but Melo has the highest usage and the team's pace has been nearly the same whether D'Antoni, Woodson, Fisher or Rambis was the coach.

The pace is due primarily to Melo. He's the only constant over the past five years on the entire roster or coaching staff.

NYK Pace

2012-3 Pace: 92.0 Rank: 26th
2013-4 Pace: 92.6 Rank: 29th
2014-5 Pace: 93.7 Rank: 27th
2015-6 Pace: 96.0 Rank: 25th

Usage = Pace? Is that the formula? Or is it a combo of defensive rebounds, guards, and team?

The guy who uses the ball the most will have the largest impact on the team's pace.

I think in a larger sense, the pace the Knicks have played with under Melo is the pace Melo is comfortable playing.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is a reality of how Melo plays.

Playing a slow pace doesn't automatically equal bad. San Antonio is 24th in pace this year, just ahead of the Knicks.

I'm just saying it's a reality of how 30-something year-old high-usage Melo-focused teams will play.

Could you explain to me what Usage is and how it's calculated and how it effects pace? I don't understand it

Usage is just how many possessions a player gets relative to his teammates per 40 minutes. Melo is 17th in the league at 28.7 possessions per 40 minutes.

Pace is the number of possessions the team gets in the course of the game.

I guess Usage and Pace do not directly correllate - but Melo has always been a player who takes longer on his post ups or wing isolation plays. Longer possessions = fewer possessions = slower pace. Since Melo has 28.7 of our 96 possessions in the game, about a third, the pace he plays directly affects the pace the team plays.

I'm not sure why our pace slowed down so much when Melo arrived, but it did. We were top 10 in the league in Pace under MDA before Melo arrived. Denver was actually always top 5 in the league in Pace WITH Melo, but that was Karl who liked to push pace.

Maybe it does come to coaching - Woodson, Fisher, Rambis have slowed our Pace?

My take is that IsoMeloBall would effect pace somewhat but so does defensive rounding (outlet passing) and guard play (Jose, AA, Gallo will not push pace).

But their pace has been essentially the same since 2012-3. It is actually somewhat faster this year, but the entire league is playing much faster now.

Right, but does that mean it is coincidental or underlying factor? I mean it COULD be because of Melo. Could be a combo of things.

Does high pace in Denver happened because of Melo? Those 2 things were there at the same time.

Pace is slow mainly due to when Melo is on the floor. They walk it up instead of leave Melo behind in transition to setup his ISO jab steps.

after reading all of the back and forth between me and crzymdups that's what you come up with? Dollar short and too little too late man. We been through all that like 10 posts up, read up

nixluva wrote:I wouldn't really be overly concerned with the pace the Knicks play at. It is not that important. In 2012-13 the Knicks were 26th in Pace but 3rd in Offensive Efficiency and 11th in Pts Per Game. They were the lowest TO and highest 3pt shot attempt team. It was a very simplistic offense and when the 3pt shooting failed them or the defense took it away they didn't really have a plan B. Still the point is that Pace can be overrated and usually is.

Phil built a starting lineup that wasn't made to run. Melo, RoLo, AA and Jose playing starter's minutes isn't going to lead to a lot of running. The bench was expected to push the ball and at the start it looked like that's exactly what would happen. Jerian, Gallo, DWill, LT and KP would be able to run but for whatever reasons things didn't work out where they consistently pushed the pace. Fish often kept KP out of the mix with those guys. Jerian and KP barely ever played together despite the signs that they had great chemistry.

I didn't say it was bad the Knicks played a slow pace. San Antonio plays basically the same pace as the Knicks this season and they're great. But I was responding to a poster's idea that the fact that the Knicks signed different guards was going to mean they played at a faster pace next season. I don't know that that is the case.

knicks1248 wrote:Rambust will soon need bodyguards while appearing anywhere in Nyc, I browse a lot of knick forums online, and i never heard more venom about any coach we have ever had.

For a coach to start the worse player on the roster on both ends, a player who has less then 6 wks left in the NBA, and call yourself fighting for a playoff spot.

Not only does rambust need to be fired, he needs to be kicked out of the NBA coaching fraternity. FROM WOODSON TO FISHER TO RAMBUST.

It would be a serious problem if i cross paths with rambust in the next 6 wks..I hope their are no kids around to hear what i would tell him

Most knick fans on the boards are ignorant. They just want Phil to hire Thibbs. How could a coach who coached less than 10 games get more venom than any other coach. It's called ignorance.

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:I wouldn't really be overly concerned with the pace the Knicks play at. It is not that important. In 2012-13 the Knicks were 26th in Pace but 3rd in Offensive Efficiency and 11th in Pts Per Game. They were the lowest TO and highest 3pt shot attempt team. It was a very simplistic offense and when the 3pt shooting failed them or the defense took it away they didn't really have a plan B. Still the point is that Pace can be overrated and usually is.

Phil built a starting lineup that wasn't made to run. Melo, RoLo, AA and Jose playing starter's minutes isn't going to lead to a lot of running. The bench was expected to push the ball and at the start it looked like that's exactly what would happen. Jerian, Gallo, DWill, LT and KP would be able to run but for whatever reasons things didn't work out where they consistently pushed the pace. Fish often kept KP out of the mix with those guys. Jerian and KP barely ever played together despite the signs that they had great chemistry.

I didn't say it was bad the Knicks played a slow pace. San Antonio plays basically the same pace as the Knicks this season and they're great. But I was responding to a poster's idea that the fact that the Knicks signed different guards was going to mean they played at a faster pace next season. I don't know that that is the case.

people need to stop using SA as an example. Its like saying that smoking is ok because George Burns lived until he was 102 years old.

Wouldn't your take also apply to the Warriors then? In reality no one is suggesting that there's any comparison between the Knicks roster and Spurs, only that it's proof that you don't have to play at a high pace in order to be successful. Besides the Spurs weren't the only winning team playing at a slower pace. Pace overall is really just not a compelling aspect to be overly concerned about.

Team	               GP	W	L	MIN	OffRtg	eFG%	TS%	PACE
Utah Jazz              64	29	35	3117	102.6	49.4	53.5	93.54
Toronto Raptors        63	43	20	3034	107.1	50.5	55.4	95.47
Memphis Grizzlies      64	38	26	3097	103.0	48.3	53.4	95.52
Cleveland Cavaliers    63	45	18	3049	107.2	51.8	55.2	95.55
Miami Heat             64	37	27	3092	102.5	50.0	53.9	95.59
New York Knicks        66	27	39	3193	102.7	48.5	53.0	95.96
San Antonio Spurs      64	54	10	3072	108.9	53.3	56.9	96.39
Dallas Mavericks       65	33	32	3180	104.5	50.0	54.3	96.50
Milwaukee Bucks        65	27	38	3145	102.1	49.7	53.6	96.81
Brooklyn Nets          64	18	46	3087	100.4	49.1	52.7	96.90
Minnesota Timberwolves 65	20	45	3145	103.7	49.2	54.5	97.33
Detroit Pistons        64	33	31	3107	102.6	48.9	51.7	97.46
Portland Trail Blazers 65	34	31	3140	105.3	51.0	54.4	97.73
Orlando Magic          63	27	36	3069	101.3	49.3	52.8	97.78
Charlotte Hornets      63	35	28	3059	103.9	49.6	54.1	97.84
Los Angeles Lakers     65	14	51	3125	99.3	46.4	51.2	98.00
Denver Nuggets         64	26	38	3102	102.5	48.5	52.8	98.06
Los Angeles Clippers   63	41	22	3049	106.2	52.0	55.3	98.55
Chicago Bulls          62	32	30	3021	101.0	48.1	52.0	98.99
New Orleans Pelicans   63	24	39	3039	103.1	49.7	53.6	99.00
Atlanta Hawks          65	36	29	3145	102.6	51.5	55.1	99.02
Indiana Pacers         64	34	30	3107	102.1	49.3	53.3	99.16
Oklahoma City Thunder  64	44	20	3097	109.7	52.3	56.5	99.49
Houston Rockets        64	32	32	3102	104.4	51.0	55.0	100.07
Philadelphia 76ers     64	8	56	3092	95.9	48.9	52.1	100.15
Washington Wizards     63	30	33	3029	102.3	50.6	54.0	100.25
Phoenix Suns           64	17	47	3077	99.5	49.0	52.9	100.33
Boston Celtics         65	39	26	3140	104.0	49.1	53.2	101.30
Golden State Warriors  63	57	6	3054	112.2	56.0	59.1	102.26
Sacramento Kings       63	25	38	3049	103.1	51.0	54.7	102.48

Knicks don't have any efficient shooters besides RoLo, and their supposed "leader" drags their percentages way down with his 43% FG and 32 % 3PT bricking ass. At least he leads by example!

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:I wouldn't really be overly concerned with the pace the Knicks play at. It is not that important. In 2012-13 the Knicks were 26th in Pace but 3rd in Offensive Efficiency and 11th in Pts Per Game. They were the lowest TO and highest 3pt shot attempt team. It was a very simplistic offense and when the 3pt shooting failed them or the defense took it away they didn't really have a plan B. Still the point is that Pace can be overrated and usually is.

Phil built a starting lineup that wasn't made to run. Melo, RoLo, AA and Jose playing starter's minutes isn't going to lead to a lot of running. The bench was expected to push the ball and at the start it looked like that's exactly what would happen. Jerian, Gallo, DWill, LT and KP would be able to run but for whatever reasons things didn't work out where they consistently pushed the pace. Fish often kept KP out of the mix with those guys. Jerian and KP barely ever played together despite the signs that they had great chemistry.

I didn't say it was bad the Knicks played a slow pace. San Antonio plays basically the same pace as the Knicks this season and they're great. But I was responding to a poster's idea that the fact that the Knicks signed different guards was going to mean they played at a faster pace next season. I don't know that that is the case.

people need to stop using SA as an example. Its like saying that smoking is ok because George Burns lived until he was 102 years old.

GSW more of an aberration than SA.

Previous to GS, what was the average pace of championship teams? Answer: below NBA average. SA, Heat, Heat, Dallas, Triangle, Triangle.

GSW is def an aberration. I said that. Curry is one of the biggest aberration I have ever seen.

and enough with the pace, it keeps dragging everyone of these convo's in the wrong direction. its not about PACE!

This will be the last triangle failure before its officially shelved forever.