SupremeCommander wrote:what about Jose and AA else for Justice Winslow and Goran Dragic? The Knicks woudl probably need to throw something else in but I would like to see something similar happen

Where's the incentive for the Heat?

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:because, they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals.

Man, Riley gets soooo much credit with some of you.

A 37-45 team last year is so far a very (relatively) healthy 23-19 team this year, and that record is liable to get worse over the next 3 weeks as they continue their road gauntlet.

Maybe the Heat are just who their record indicates they are and not some sleeping giant?

When you can orchestrate the type of deals to bring in: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh, and find the nerves to win 4 championships with the aforementioned, you deserve all of the credits in the world

I believe you and I have been over Riley's role in the Big 3. He helped facilitate a deal the Big 3 cooked up themselves.

But that said, look again at what I quoted. You wrote "they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals."

"Have" ... present tense.

You're giving the post-James Heat credit for things they haven't shown. They are 60-64 since the start of last year, are 4-6 the last ten, which is likely to reflect who they are (if not worse) for a while.

You're giving Wade-Bosh-Deng-Dragic-Whiteside more credit than they've earned.

Not sure there is any way around that.

I am in this camp. First of all Bosh is a career first half performer. Every year his production drops considerably over the last 30-40 games in the season. Wade's body is reaching the Iverson stage... dude is kept together by stretchy shirts and duct tape. I will say there is some upside as I would expect Dragic to figure things out and improve. Winslow can certainly get better and more eff% as well. Sleeping giant? Not seeing that. They have some things that can get better and some others that can get worse. I see them as a middle playoff team... maybe 45-48 wins who can advance if they get a favorable matchup or swept if they dont. Time will tell and I think they have done well dealing with Lebron's departure.

Riley has done well. He always does. If you followed how it all went down he was very instrumental in landing Lebron, dont poopoo that. Some of what he's done was simply out of need. Who would you rather have? Bosh at 3/$77mm remaining or Melo at 3/$79mm ??? (includes $28mm player option we assume Melo opts into)

First time in a long time I would be totally 100% if the Knicks did nothing at the deadline and simply focus on continuing to improve internally.

Wade, Bron and Bosh came up with the idea of playing together in Miami so how hard of a job did Riley have at getting them signed when they all knew they'd have to take pay cuts to play together??

well you can come to your own conclusions which you clearly have, or you can read about it and do some research. Riley luring Lebron was a long process.

Riley lured Lebron?

The three of them and CAA came up with the idea on their own.

NardDogNation wrote:If only we had "a 'SF' that could put the ball into the basket" to offer the Heat....if only....

Seriously, I'm still on board with Melo for Winslow and (whatever we get from a 3rd team for) Dragic. I'm all in on Porzingis being our franchise's future and know he'll need a running mate (see Winslow).

I wouldn't do that trade. We'd be better off with Melo and Dragic is not worth what the Heat gave up for him or his contract.

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:because, they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals.

Man, Riley gets soooo much credit with some of you.

A 37-45 team last year is so far a very (relatively) healthy 23-19 team this year, and that record is liable to get worse over the next 3 weeks as they continue their road gauntlet.

Maybe the Heat are just who their record indicates they are and not some sleeping giant?

When you can orchestrate the type of deals to bring in: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh, and find the nerves to win 4 championships with the aforementioned, you deserve all of the credits in the world

I believe you and I have been over Riley's role in the Big 3. He helped facilitate a deal the Big 3 cooked up themselves.

But that said, look again at what I quoted. You wrote "they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals."

"Have" ... present tense.

You're giving the post-James Heat credit for things they haven't shown. They are 60-64 since the start of last year, are 4-6 the last ten, which is likely to reflect who they are (if not worse) for a while.

You're giving Wade-Bosh-Deng-Dragic-Whiteside more credit than they've earned.

Not sure there is any way around that.

I am in this camp. First of all Bosh is a career first half performer. Every year his production drops considerably over the last 30-40 games in the season. Wade's body is reaching the Iverson stage... dude is kept together by stretchy shirts and duct tape. I will say there is some upside as I would expect Dragic to figure things out and improve. Winslow can certainly get better and more eff% as well. Sleeping giant? Not seeing that. They have some things that can get better and some others that can get worse. I see them as a middle playoff team... maybe 45-48 wins who can advance if they get a favorable matchup or swept if they dont. Time will tell and I think they have done well dealing with Lebron's departure.

Riley has done well. He always does. If you followed how it all went down he was very instrumental in landing Lebron, dont poopoo that. Some of what he's done was simply out of need. Who would you rather have? Bosh at 3/$77mm remaining or Melo at 3/$79mm ??? (includes $28mm player option we assume Melo opts into)

First time in a long time I would be totally 100% if the Knicks did nothing at the deadline and simply focus on continuing to improve internally.

Wade, Bron and Bosh came up with the idea of playing together in Miami so how hard of a job did Riley have at getting them signed when they all knew they'd have to take pay cuts to play together??

well you can come to your own conclusions which you clearly have, or you can read about it and do some research. Riley luring Lebron was a long process.

More Melo trades? Really?

Read what?? All the different stories from writers who made up their own stories about how it went down?? We never heard from Riley or Wade or Lebron how it went down. All we got was rumors of how it went down and there were multiple rumors that were all saying something different. Unless you have something straight from the mouth of either Riley, Wade or Lebron then there's no telling what the truth is??

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:because, they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals.

Man, Riley gets soooo much credit with some of you.

A 37-45 team last year is so far a very (relatively) healthy 23-19 team this year, and that record is liable to get worse over the next 3 weeks as they continue their road gauntlet.

Maybe the Heat are just who their record indicates they are and not some sleeping giant?

When you can orchestrate the type of deals to bring in: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh, and find the nerves to win 4 championships with the aforementioned, you deserve all of the credits in the world

I believe you and I have been over Riley's role in the Big 3. He helped facilitate a deal the Big 3 cooked up themselves.

But that said, look again at what I quoted. You wrote "they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals."

"Have" ... present tense.

You're giving the post-James Heat credit for things they haven't shown. They are 60-64 since the start of last year, are 4-6 the last ten, which is likely to reflect who they are (if not worse) for a while.

You're giving Wade-Bosh-Deng-Dragic-Whiteside more credit than they've earned.

Not sure there is any way around that.

I am in this camp. First of all Bosh is a career first half performer. Every year his production drops considerably over the last 30-40 games in the season. Wade's body is reaching the Iverson stage... dude is kept together by stretchy shirts and duct tape. I will say there is some upside as I would expect Dragic to figure things out and improve. Winslow can certainly get better and more eff% as well. Sleeping giant? Not seeing that. They have some things that can get better and some others that can get worse. I see them as a middle playoff team... maybe 45-48 wins who can advance if they get a favorable matchup or swept if they dont. Time will tell and I think they have done well dealing with Lebron's departure.

Riley has done well. He always does. If you followed how it all went down he was very instrumental in landing Lebron, dont poopoo that. Some of what he's done was simply out of need. Who would you rather have? Bosh at 3/$77mm remaining or Melo at 3/$79mm ??? (includes $28mm player option we assume Melo opts into)

First time in a long time I would be totally 100% if the Knicks did nothing at the deadline and simply focus on continuing to improve internally.

Wade, Bron and Bosh came up with the idea of playing together in Miami so how hard of a job did Riley have at getting them signed when they all knew they'd have to take pay cuts to play together??

well you can come to your own conclusions which you clearly have, or you can read about it and do some research. Riley luring Lebron was a long process.

Riley lured Lebron?

The three of them and CAA came up with the idea on their own.

Not accurate.

I'm open-minded.

According to..?

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:because, they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals.

Man, Riley gets soooo much credit with some of you.

A 37-45 team last year is so far a very (relatively) healthy 23-19 team this year, and that record is liable to get worse over the next 3 weeks as they continue their road gauntlet.

Maybe the Heat are just who their record indicates they are and not some sleeping giant?

When you can orchestrate the type of deals to bring in: Shaq, Lebron, Bosh, and find the nerves to win 4 championships with the aforementioned, you deserve all of the credits in the world

I believe you and I have been over Riley's role in the Big 3. He helped facilitate a deal the Big 3 cooked up themselves.

But that said, look again at what I quoted. You wrote "they have the team to beat Cleveland and reach the finals."

"Have" ... present tense.

You're giving the post-James Heat credit for things they haven't shown. They are 60-64 since the start of last year, are 4-6 the last ten, which is likely to reflect who they are (if not worse) for a while.

You're giving Wade-Bosh-Deng-Dragic-Whiteside more credit than they've earned.

Not sure there is any way around that.

I am in this camp. First of all Bosh is a career first half performer. Every year his production drops considerably over the last 30-40 games in the season. Wade's body is reaching the Iverson stage... dude is kept together by stretchy shirts and duct tape. I will say there is some upside as I would expect Dragic to figure things out and improve. Winslow can certainly get better and more eff% as well. Sleeping giant? Not seeing that. They have some things that can get better and some others that can get worse. I see them as a middle playoff team... maybe 45-48 wins who can advance if they get a favorable matchup or swept if they dont. Time will tell and I think they have done well dealing with Lebron's departure.

Riley has done well. He always does. If you followed how it all went down he was very instrumental in landing Lebron, dont poopoo that. Some of what he's done was simply out of need. Who would you rather have? Bosh at 3/$77mm remaining or Melo at 3/$79mm ??? (includes $28mm player option we assume Melo opts into)

First time in a long time I would be totally 100% if the Knicks did nothing at the deadline and simply focus on continuing to improve internally.

Wade, Bron and Bosh came up with the idea of playing together in Miami so how hard of a job did Riley have at getting them signed when they all knew they'd have to take pay cuts to play together??

well you can come to your own conclusions which you clearly have, or you can read about it and do some research. Riley luring Lebron was a long process.

Riley lured Lebron?

The three of them and CAA came up with the idea on their own.

Not accurate.

I'm open-minded.

According to..?

Read about it... the genesis of the idea may have been as simple as you suggest. Execution is a different story and Riley. his moves and his pitch were huge factors in making this happen.

NardDogNation wrote:If only we had "a 'SF' that could put the ball into the basket" to offer the Heat....if only....

Seriously, I'm still on board with Melo for Winslow and (whatever we get from a 3rd team for) Dragic. I'm all in on Porzingis being our franchise's future and know he'll need a running mate (see Winslow).

What's better? Conley and Melo? Or Dragic and Winslow? Most teams that wanted to win games would take Conley and Melo. Dragic isn't even younger than Conley.

Knicks have a good shot at Conley this off-season for free and that's so much better than giving up Melo for Dragic and Winslow.

fishmike wrote:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/432151-miami-heat-mastermind-how-pat-riley-built-a-contender
Here is one of the 80 stories that outline how instrumental Riley was in getting Lebron to Miami. Or you can believe its as simple as Wade and Bosh and Bron decided this over pizza and poker.

I would suggest READING and researching it if you really care. Im no fan of Pat but he's a BB genius, knows how to manage people and build teams and his role in getting Lebron here was far more difficult in Wade's.

I have no skin in this game, but you guys suggest Riley was on his boat fishing and got a text from Lebron saying "hey dad, Dwayne invited me for dinner, and can I sleep over?"

Its just not the case. Having a guy willing to come is the easy part. The paycuts where not substantial and meaningless for Lebron whose NBA salary is probably less than half his income.

My apologies. I didn't see this until now.

I wonder if you're also read this piece, and find it credible. Some highlights:

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/07/inside_the_decision_miamis_cou.html

That won't be comforting for Cavaliers fans who still are reeling from what many considered James' stunning departure. But it appears to be part of a complex master plan that was the trio's desire for much of the past four years.

The seeds were planted in the summer of 2006 after Bosh, James and Wade finished their third seasons. Established All-Stars and clearly the future of the league, the three were part of a bonding effort led by USA Basketball to revamp and re-energize the national team after the disappointing 2004 bronze medal.

The three played together for the first time that summer in Japan at the World Championships. For the first week, they were sequestered without family or friends in Sapporo, Japan, in an attempt to build chemistry. But it wasn't just the players. Working as an intern for Team USA and getting to know the players was Nick Arison, the son of Heat billionaire owner Micky Arison.

Now, Nick Arison is a rising executive with the Heat. He was part of the team that recruited all three players this summer.

Already close because they came from the same draft class, the Team USA experience strengthened the relationship. Even before the team gathered in Las Vegas to prepare for the World Championships that summer, the three had talked about playing for that team.

That same July, the co-op took on another role when all three decided to extend their contracts with their teams. They couldn't all become unrestricted free agents until 2007 under the rules, so the smart play was for them to extend with the respective teams.

After talking about it amongst themselves, James, Bosh and Wade decided to accept three-year extensions with their teams. It would make them all unrestricted free agents at the same time in 2010. For players on maximum contracts, becoming an unrestricted free agent after just seven years in the NBA is rare. But it would put them all in position to potentially team up that year as well.

In the ensuing years, four important events happened that were major contributors to their teaming in 2010.

Second, Los Angeles-based management company Creative Artists Agency decided to get into the basketball agent business. Seeing how influential they could be in the summer of 2010, CAA bought the agencies that represented James, Bosh and Wade. Bringing them all under one roof gave CAA huge control of the market and took down any barriers the three would have with negotiations.

Fourth, the struggling New York Knicks launched a plan in the fall of 2008 to clear off enough cap space to sign two maximum level free agents in an effort to recruit James to New York by promising to sign another star as well. Though he never said so directly, James began openly flirting with the thought. Other teams saw the opening and hatched the same plan.

But Riley may not have even needed to slam dunk the presentation. He already had a huge advantage working long before he even got to Cleveland.

As was their plan four years earlier and was discussed more deeply in 2008, Bosh, Wade and James had been talking amongst themselves. Unlike Bosh or James, Wade took the step of actually attempting to recruit other free agents to his team. Riley's efforts were more successful than the Knicks, and they had the most salary-cap space.

Getting all three together was really only possible in Miami, and Wade pushed the topic. Despite being discouraged by Commissioner David Stern and perhaps breaking tampering rules again, Wade flew with Bosh to Akron to meet at James' house in the last week of June. Still under contract with the Heat, Wade got the other two to the brink of a deal to join up.

Though many thought James would seriously consider the Knicks and the Nets, part owned by friend Jay-Z, they were never in his top two. The way it looks now, the Cavs may not have been in the top two for much of the process.

James did talk with Bosh about the chance of playing in Cleveland, but Bosh resisted, and James seemed to be more attracted to teaming up with his friends than staying home.

Again, I'm not trying to take due credit away from Riley, he was instrumental and deserves credit. But again, he was neither the composer (the three were) or the conductor, that title seems to go more to Wade.

Riley successfully facillitated a deal put on his plate but Wade and Jame and Bosh themselves. They always had it in mind. Riley had the right zipcode, was astute enough to fan the flame when he could, and created enough cap space to make their plan work.

crzymdups wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:If only we had "a 'SF' that could put the ball into the basket" to offer the Heat....if only....

Seriously, I'm still on board with Melo for Winslow and (whatever we get from a 3rd team for) Dragic. I'm all in on Porzingis being our franchise's future and know he'll need a running mate (see Winslow).

What's better? Conley and Melo? Or Dragic and Winslow? Most teams that wanted to win games would take Conley and Melo. Dragic isn't even younger than Conley.

Knicks have a good shot at Conley this off-season for free and that's so much better than giving up Melo for Dragic and Winslow.

Why should we want to win games now? As good as we are (and despite how much I love this team), we are still on the fringes of the playoffs. Most seasons, that'd leave me completely discouraged but having Porzingis makes me feel that there is an entire future to concern ourselves about. That being said, I'm not concerned with realizing the potential of that future than I am with "winning now".

Melo's playing exceptionally well? GOOD! Let's sell high for once and start pairing Porzingis with some running mates that will help further his reign in this league. Last thing I'd want is to have Grant Hill but end up holding onto Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars; to have Chris Bosh but hold onto Vince Carter; to have Dwight Howard and hold onto Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley. Those types of decisions can ruin a franchise in spite of its young up-and-coming player.

Riley:

1. Antoine Walker from the Celtics, plus James Posey and Jason Williams from Memphis. All three played big minutes in the 2005-06 championship run. The deal also moved Eddie Jones to the Grizzlies, Rasual Butler to the Hornets and Greg Ostertag to the Jazz.

2. Dealt Glen Rice for Alonzo Mourning

3. Got Tim Hardaway for role players (with Chris Gatling for Kevin Willis and Bimbo Coles)

4. Landed Shaq (odom, butler, grant), unloaded Shaq (shawn marion)

5. Turned spare parts and draft picks into Goran Dragic

6. Drafted Dwayne Wade

7. Singing PJ Brown, Gary Payton, Dan Majerle

8. Cap space to acquire Bosh and Lebron

9. Whiteside

The heat have 3 titles and 6 appearance in the finals since he came to the organization. That's one more championship and 2 more finals appearance than our Knicks. So I think he has done more than enough to be considered impressive.