fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lots of things can get coaches fired. I dont see any of those things happening here. Not saying Fisher has been perfect, but I cant fathom Phil so much as having this thought

I can totally fathom this (though again, I'm not hoping he's removed):
(a) Fisher has yet to demonstrate that "it" factor; the ability to pull a rabit out of a hat. He is doing a great job getting the team motivated and playing hard, but they've had problems playing a consistent 48 minutes or from one game to the next. And, he hasn't yet shown that magic that separates the men from the boys from a coaching standpoint
(b) Fisher a number of times (especially last year) made a strong point that he was the coach, not Phil, and said it in a way that I don't think played to Phil's ego. If Phil is making suggestions (behind closed doors to Derek) and Derek isn't implementing them and then loses a game, Phil is not going to like that

how does Phil take Fisher into his office and fire him for anything close to one of those two reasons? Whats the verbiage? Neither seem quantifiable.

neither is meant to be quantified, and Phil's verbiage is simply "Sorry, this didn't work out as expected."

Regarding (a) There are some coaches who just have the knack, have the "it" factor to perpetually succeed. Phil might think that Fisher is (to use a football analogy) Andy Reid. Real good coach, wins games, develops players -- nothing not to like. But he might think some other guy is the next Pete Carrol or Belicheck or Popovich or choose your pick (Red Auerbach?). He has to make this based on judgment before that guy ACTUALLY is at that rank (you try and hire popovich away from the spurs -- good luck). He has to use judgment and experience not numbers

Regarding (b) that can be very easy to imagine on so many fronts. The latest bit of success was preceded by Phil/Rosen publicly criticizing the execution of the Knicks triangle by not having hard enough cuts. Ask yourself, why would he do that? Do you think he did that without saying as much privately first? My guess is he told Fisher this first, and they were still playing sloppy and he went public to ratchet things up a bit. I am quite confident that, when Phil and Fisher meet privately to discuss a game or the state of the team, Phil is convinced that he's the smartest guy in that room and that his suggestions for the team should be considered seriously (euphemism for "do them"). It's less clear to me whether Fisher shares that view. In any event, very easy to imagine a situation like this.

AND, and, and, to be clear, I am not a fan of replacing Fisher. The philosophy that you fix things by changing coaches, players, etc. seems more emotional than rational. You don't see a lot of success that way -- just cathartic release. Usually fixing things is hard work, frustrating, and requires a lot of patience.

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lots of things can get coaches fired. I dont see any of those things happening here. Not saying Fisher has been perfect, but I cant fathom Phil so much as having this thought

I can totally fathom this (though again, I'm not hoping he's removed):
(a) Fisher has yet to demonstrate that "it" factor; the ability to pull a rabit out of a hat. He is doing a great job getting the team motivated and playing hard, but they've had problems playing a consistent 48 minutes or from one game to the next. And, he hasn't yet shown that magic that separates the men from the boys from a coaching standpoint
(b) Fisher a number of times (especially last year) made a strong point that he was the coach, not Phil, and said it in a way that I don't think played to Phil's ego. If Phil is making suggestions (behind closed doors to Derek) and Derek isn't implementing them and then loses a game, Phil is not going to like that

how does Phil take Fisher into his office and fire him for anything close to one of those two reasons? Whats the verbiage? Neither seem quantifiable.

neither is meant to be quantified, and Phil's verbiage is simply "Sorry, this didn't work out as expected."

Regarding (a) There are some coaches who just have the knack, have the "it" factor to perpetually succeed. Phil might think that Fisher is (to use a football analogy) Andy Reid. Real good coach, wins games, develops players -- nothing not to like. But he might think some other guy is the next Pete Carrol or Belicheck or Popovich or choose your pick (Red Auerbach?). He has to make this based on judgment before that guy ACTUALLY is at that rank (you try and hire popovich away from the spurs -- good luck). He has to use judgment and experience not numbers

Regarding (b) that can be very easy to imagine on so many fronts. The latest bit of success was preceded by Phil/Rosen publicly criticizing the execution of the Knicks triangle by not having hard enough cuts. Ask yourself, why would he do that? Do you think he did that without saying as much privately first? My guess is he told Fisher this first, and they were still playing sloppy and he went public to ratchet things up a bit. I am quite confident that, when Phil and Fisher meet privately to discuss a game or the state of the team, Phil is convinced that he's the smartest guy in that room and that his suggestions for the team should be considered seriously (euphemism for "do them"). It's less clear to me whether Fisher shares that view. In any event, very easy to imagine a situation like this.

AND, and, and, to be clear, I am not a fan of replacing Fisher. The philosophy that you fix things by changing coaches, players, etc. seems more emotional than rational. You don't see a lot of success that way -- just cathartic release. Usually fixing things is hard work, frustrating, and requires a lot of patience.

I guess my point is if you are building a culture of accounability how do you let Fisher go for something you cant quanitify? Just doesnt get for me

Well if the team only wins 40, after the rough start, Phil uses that number and says no growth. Second half should have been better than the first. Players should know the system better etc.

I can't see him doing something like that absent him also feeling he has a great sense of the next real-winner-of a coach. Doug Collins won 47 games with the Bulls before he was cut loose so some newbie (to NBA coaching) Phil Jackson could take over and add 10 to the win column

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lots of things can get coaches fired. I dont see any of those things happening here. Not saying Fisher has been perfect, but I cant fathom Phil so much as having this thought

coming from zach lowe makes this a bit more credible. Also, we can't see what is going on and what phil likes and dislikes.

It's possible the shenanigans with Matt Barnes he was involved in during camp annoyed the Knicks brass. Really if be shocked if Phil pulled the trigger with the team seemly having turned the corner

when that story came out I really thought that it will be an issue/distraction. They have played better than I expected so it was not as bad but perhaps under the covers this is uglier than it looks?

Yea I remember agreeing with you on that point at the time. And Chuck might be right. I guess it is possible that these rumblings came after The Nets game where Fish played only 8 guys after a back to back. Specifically how he didn't us Lou or KOQ to give KP a breather. Phil brought these guys in this summer. I can see him wondering WTF

Chandler wrote:Also Zach Lowe seemed to downplay it a little saying he perhaps wasn't hearing the same rumblings as the other guy, Windhorst

So this might just be a bunch of baloney

Haha if this came from that Lebron groupie slob rest assure its baloney. The fact he works for ESPN alone means he has no credibility

There's Brian Shaw as well. I think if he makes a change, it's Brian Shaw or Luke Walton he's going to hire. Or perhaps Pippen if Pippen wants to coach (which I don't think he does). He's going to hire one of his former players.

The only reason to mention these non-collaborated, unconfirmed rumors is to add some more drama around Fisher and the knicks ahead of the Grizzlies game.

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lots of things can get coaches fired. I dont see any of those things happening here. Not saying Fisher has been perfect, but I cant fathom Phil so much as having this thought

coming from zach lowe makes this a bit more credible. Also, we can't see what is going on and what phil likes and dislikes.

I can see Phil not liking the Fisher/Barnes situation and thinking Fisher does not have the maturity and personal life to support the environment and culture he is trying to build with the Knicks. For all we know, a lot of NBA personnel might be siding with Barnes and saying that what Fisher did hurt his credibility around the league. I don't think it's likely, but very possible. Still don't understand how these guys fight over these reality tv skanks. Anyways, to me it seems like these issues are more likely to cause friction with Phil than the basketball side, because Fisher is showing some progress there.

ChuckBuck wrote:For Luke Walton I'd bite. Steve Kerr type clone to a T, and Kerr was Phil's first and second choice until he went to plan Z in Fisher.

We'll see how things shake out this off season!

Well remember also that Luke's name was one of the first names talked about before the whole Kerr thing even happened?? I remember for a while i thought it was gonna be Luke for sure.

mreinman wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:If Phil makes the change at season end, it would be only with 1 person I think he'd be willing to do it for. Luke Walton.

It also depends on what kind of season the Knicks have. If they can finish the season with 40 or more wins, Fisher is going to come back for sure. If they don't close the season with the same type of record they have now (20 wins in the 1st half), I think he could be replaced. At an early point in this season, I agree Fisher looked still very much a rookie head coach. The last month or so though, he has looked far better. I've seen progress. However closing the season strong is critical. He can not go back to experimenting with lineups, playing 11 guys a game, and have players look lost.

To me the coaching staff is strong on this team. They're getting the players to play in a way they want them to play. That's the staff as a whole though. Fisher in particular isn't the one who has to do all of that. Many of the duties are assigned to other coaches on the staff. Fisher's main role is to get the guys to follow what the assistants have schemed for the sets. He wasn't getting that done early on, but lately has been fantastic in that regard. Like I said, all about how they close. They'll have little excuse to not be at 40 or more wins at season's end considering at 20-21 many of the losses can be chalked up to the team learning how to run the offense and fitting in together.

Luke ?
he aint bad but its the Golden State Warriors ya know. (already built good!)

How about a story to give Patrick Ewing ? a shot as coach of this same team
Knick mgmt. need to bury the Ewing hatchet, Patrick is very very deserving of a head NBA coach opportunity

Why ?not ? here
Best NBA in area
(sorry nets fans!)
LOL

patrick ewing?

c'mon man! Don't you want this thread to be credible?

Thread already credible
mreinman

What's wrong with Ewing ?

What the devil has Luke Walton done ? have you ever ever seen a coach (Luke) inherit a team which happens to be NBA CHAMPs
and run same stuff , only thing GS Warriors a yr, older, wiser & BETTER both sides of the ball.

What the devil has Derek Fisher done ? to get a job NBA coach just before retiree at last game
and by the way Fisher was like upm-teenth choice by Phil Jackson after Steve Kerr-y correctly spurn NYK
for BETTER BUILT NOW GS Warriors team squad, young and good !

Why shouldn't Ewing get a good/decent building team, Pat been good assistant coach for long long time in NBA
done alot for NBA and NewYork hoops history here in Knickerbockerland

Figured' you'd give Ex-Knick Ewing a better nod'
than to Dis' him here in forum board. Its cool if not all feel Ewing is NBA coach ready, etc.. I get all that

What has Derek Fisher done ?
he'll be here OR for some NBA team 4ever to get into NBA playoffs..
he needs ways ways too much seasoning (1+ year)

Someone got into Fisher's ear likely Phil, about things in NBA basketball outside the triangle
and team personnel improvements. Of course Knicks dont got all the talent skill positions yet like PG

But Kristaps P. is great start!

This thread post is perhaps fact
That Fish needed to Shape UP or Else.

The player(s) minor grumblings about X's and O's should not surprise many devout Knick fans here
based on how Fisher mismanaged games few months into season before last 3-4 weeks success of Knicks wins.
The wins mainly cause of Defense and players stepping up.

Ewing needs a NBA Chance, there are no John Calipari's or Rick Pitino's coming here
Coaches yes are getting younger however to say ex-knicks can't be considered coaches here
isn't right.

*just an opinion
:)